The Memorial emblem?

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Abdiel7, Jan 28, 2019.

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    Abdiel7

    Abdiel7 New Member

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    I've seen people make cases either way on whether the other sheepare supposed to partake as well or not it's not something I've been invested in investigating till now but as a relative claims to have become anointed in the past year and will partake this year it leaves me curious.
     
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    Abdiel7

    Abdiel7 New Member

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    Yes this should have been in general discussion.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    There are five different words in the Greek which are translated into English as “anoint”, “anointed”, and “anointing”. Three of them are compounds of “chrio” = ( khree’-o ), the root word meaning “through the idea of contact”. These are: egchrio, epichrio, and the root, chrio. The other two words are “aleipho” ( al-i'-fo ), and “murizo” ( moo-rid’-zo ).

    So, you may ask, “Why are there five different words translated the same; ‘anoint’?” Let’s start with “aleipho”. The base/root word is liparos ( lip-ar-os ), having to do with “things which pertain to a sumptuous and delicate style of living.” The root, “From lipos (grease)”. the word “aleipho” appears 8 times: Mt 1, Mk 2, Lu 2, John 2, Jam 1.

    Example: “Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.” ( John 12:3 KJV )

    The only word dealing with anointing with spirit is “chrio” = ( khree’-o ), which is used five times; Lu 1, Acts 2, 2 Cor 1, Heb 1.

    Example: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me. Because of this He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me” to heal the brokenhearted, “to preach remission to captives and new sight to the blind,” to send away the ones having been crushed in deliverance, “to preach an acceptable year of the Lord.” ( Isa. 61:1, 2 ), ( Lu 4:18-19 LITV )

    Every time I have asked those who claim to be anointed, how they know they are anointed, they use Romans 8:16: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.”Then they may quote Gal 4:5-6. “. . .that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons. Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out: ‘Abba, Father!’”

    I, personally, do not believe in the modern day “anointing” of those who claim to be of the 144,000 anointed. I find no scripture, or other evidence to back it up. Those claiming such, use the scriptures at Romans 8:16, and 1 John 5:6. The problem with using 1 John 5:6 is the fact that John is speaking of Jesus being the anointed. All of the other scriptures which deal with anointing are speaking of “ALL Christians. Yes, they accept the “spirit of God” into their hearts. I’m not speaking of the teaching of the Watchtower, of the “anointing” being 1 of the 144,000.

    I do believe that the “spirit” bears witness that we are “God’s children”, ALL of US! I’m also done with the teaching that women don’t count. They are considered as "second citizens"! You know that God says the anointed will be adopted “‘sons of God”, right? ( Gal 3:26; 4:5 ) What the WTB&TS (chosen) are teaching, is that women can’t cut it. They are disqualified from that position in the kingdom, and their “faith in Christ Jesus” is for naught.:(
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What you're looking for is chronology.

    As we mentioned before, the first resurrection are those of the 144k: "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1Th 4:16)

    Now, this Scripture indicates that some of the 144k will be alive in the end, "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. So keep comforting one another with these words." (1Th 4:17)

    There is a period of time between the Holy Spirit being poured out and the 144k resurrected, and all 144k meeting the Lord in the air. In my work I have shown the 144k mirror Jesus experience. Those dead in Christ rise first as spirit beings to earth, while those remaining of the 144k alive in the end are transfigured. Then, the disgusting thing is placed when these remaining ones are attacked. The 144k remain on earth as either Spirit beings or still alive, for 40 days. At the end of 40 days they all together meet the Lord when he comes in the clouds.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    It’s not about chronology. It’s about the claim by those who say they are anointed to be one of the 144,000. The WTB&TS and the IBSA (International Bible Students Association) are the only Christian organizations, that I know of, who teach this idea of the anointed being the 144,000. The scripture quoted; “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.”, can be read as applying to ALL of those believers in Christ. As written, this could be applied to the entire Roman and Galatians congregations that existed at the time. Is that what Paul meant, or was it only for a few at that time, in the first century? ( Rom 8:5-17 ) It also does not mention them being anointed and associated with the 144,000 “of the tribes of Israel”.

    In Paul’s letter to the Galatians, he writes:“. . . that he [Jesus] might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons. Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out: ‘Abba, Father!’” ( Gal 4:5-6 ) Those under law were Israelites. The gentiles were not under law. Also, the “law” was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

    The last passover meal was shared with His 12 chosen “disciples”. The Greek word disciples, is mathetes ( math-ay-tes’ ), having the meaning of: a learner, pupil, disciple. Does that mean that other followers of Jesus were not disciples?

    While researching this subject, I came across a mistranslation of Rev 14:1 which is significant. ( removal of three words ) Apparently this wording is left out because it exposes the Trinity teaching as false. It shows a distinction between “son” and “father”.

    And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.” ( Rev 14:1 KJV )

    Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.” ( Rev 14:1 NKJV )

    And I saw, and behold, the Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, that had his name and his Father's name written in their foreheads.” ( Rev 14:1 Codex )

    Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.” ( Rev 14:1 NASB )

    I have been taught to “check it out”. In other words, “Make Sure Of All Things”. “On account of this, brothers, rather be diligent to make sure of your calling and election; for doing these things, you will not ever fall into sin.” ( 2 Pet 1:10 LITV )

    For this reason, brothers, all the more do YOUR utmost to make the calling and choosing of YOU sure for yourselves; for if YOU keep on doing these things YOU will by no means ever fail.” ( 2 Pet 1:10 NWT )

    This is why I ask, pose questions, and challenge all so called bible teachings, by all those claiming to be true Christians. ( Mt 12:30; 15:14; 16:6, 12; Gal 5:9; 2 Pe 2:1-4 ) As Joe Friday used to say: “The facts, ma'am, just the facts!” ( Sgt. Joe Friday - Dragnet )
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother...

    Maybe I'm not understanding. Are you saying there will be no 144k alive in the time of the end? I ask because it seems clear to me 1Th 4:17 says there will be. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

    "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. So keep comforting one another with these words." (1Th 4:17)
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hey Bro,
    No, that is not what I’m saying. Of the millions of Christians who have lived, 144,000 is a very small number. It would appear to me that the “chosen” would be very special, along the lines of the 12 apostles, Paul, Timothy, Jude, and other writers and prophets. Paul and others speak of the “saints” who are among the early congregations. “. . . among which nations YOU also are those called to belong to Jesus Christ, to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, called to be holy ones (saints): May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” ( Rom 1:6-7 NWT ) Paul is speaking of certain ones within the congregation in Rome. How many, we don’t know. Paul speaks to the “saints”, addressing them in all of his letters.

    Paul addresses them nine times in his letter to the Ephesians. One example, “. . .for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;” ( Eph 4:12 NASB )

    Matthew speaks of early saints ( holy ones) being raised from their graves. “ And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones [saints] that had fallen asleep were raised up,” ( Mt 27:52 NWT )

    Will there be others chosen during our lifetime and into the future? Most likely, Yes. It would seem that they also would have special skills according to the holy spirit from Jehovah.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree...

    But I have a couple of questions for you.

    Why was the Helper something new that was poured out on those gathered in the upper room? If the Holy Spirit is something that is equal to all, why was it significantly different after our Lord entered heaven? So, would you say that those in the upper room received something no one ever had before?

    There are people all over the world with gifts; So, how would individuals know they had a commission from God, if there wasn't some sort of unique spiritual event, such as on those 120 at Pentecost? I believe everyone receives God's Spirit, but is there precedence for a singular event for the select?

    Another question I would like to ask is about the separate groups throughout Scripture. The Bible often speaks directly to one group, and then discusses also the other. Such as Israel and Judah, the two sheepfolds, etc... So then, when do you know a certain Scripture is only speaking to the first group, or to both?

    One thing we are in complete agreement on is: I don't understand why so many people claim to be a part of the 144k. I can't imagine that anyone of the 144k wouldn't have a major role in the work in some way. I fear 99% of those who believe they are part of that group, have mislead themselves. Of course, who am I to judge; but as you say, the number is so small, the attributes for entry are not arbitrary.

    Anyway, I hope Jehovah's Spirit is with you and your family brother...
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Hi, Joshua, Tsaphah and all. Should all true Christain partake of the emblems at the memorial of Christ death? If we examine the Gospel we see that the promised Holy Spirit was given about 50 days later from Passover when the 11 faithful Apostle took them at the Lord"s evening meal. But had they received Holy Spirit before Pentecost? Yes. Jn 20:22. Was it the same level of Holy Spirit, that was poured out at Pentecost? No, because Jesus said just before ascending to heaven "But John, indeed, baptized with water, but you will be baptized in Holy Spirit not many days after this. Acts 1 :5. First occurrence in Jn 20:22 "Receiving Holy Spirit" after Christ resurrection. Now (Baptized) in the Spirit, about 50 days past Passover. Baptized = Imers or covered up with. It is certainly not the same level as" Receiving" it. In Mat 28:20 Jesus promised all his disciples to be with them until the conclusion of things, and that was before being Baptized, in Holy Spirit. What had they done to receive that privilege? Yes repentance from sin and Faith i n the Blood and Flesh of Jesus by being baptized in Christ underwater , they were reconciled to God the Father and it was in that state that Christ our Lord and Saviour "Commanded" them at his "Evening" meal to partake in the emblems representing his life (Blood and Flesh given for many). What can we conclude? WE do not need to be "Baptized" in the Holy Spirit to partake of the memorial of Christ death. Let's not forget 2 Tim 3:16. Christ Love to all. Regent
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Here is my two cents...

    The Divadic covenant was unto the Jewish nation for a Messiah. Our Lord fulfilled that at his baptism. Then the way into heaven was only opened once the curtain was rend in two at his sacrifice.

    Christ Jesus made a new covenant with his disciples in fulfillment of Passover; by offering them a kingdom. This kingdom is fulfilled in them once the sacred secret is completed, and those who rule with Christ return to him.

    So, since the kingdom covenant was made with the co-rulers with Christ, I would say the emblems that represent the covenant to rule that kingdom should be upheld by the co-rulers. The other sheep of course benefit from this arrangement.

    Just my opinion, but I do not believe everyone partakes, in the same way John the Baptist did not, or anyone before him. The covenant was made with the co-rulers, and the other sheep (including John) benefit from it.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me put this another way: The Divadic covenant was only to the Jews, and once Cornelius was baptized, that covenant was extended to all mankind in fulfillment of Peters vision of the sheet. I believe this to be the fulfillment of the 70th week.

    Now, the new covenant is unto the co-rulers with Christ for a kingdom, until in the end another 70th week is fulfilled when that kingdom covenant is fulfilled unto the 144k, and then extended to all the earth, opening up that kingdom to everyone.

    The way the Divadic covenant was fulfilled will show you how the kingdom covenant will be fulfilled. And, in the same way, the covenant for a Messiah was to the Jews alone, until Cornelius, so is the covenant for the kingdom unto the co-rulers, until the great crowd is gathered.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    First: It is possible that the “helper” was for those Israelites who needed a better understanding of who Jesus really was. That is my guess, because I really don't know.

    These are some “heavy” questions; hard to answer with factual biblical scripture. Part of the reason is that written words are different from spoken words. How so? Spoken words are usually accompanied with inflection, tones, and directed to, or at specific audience members. Some scriptures can be taken out of context or misapplied. This is especially true with translated words from another tongue. For example to the question raised: “Is there different “spirit” to be given, or as Regent asks: “Is the Spirit covering as in Baptism, or “Received”? Some of the answers to these questions is: “We don’t know.” We weren't there.

    Or, at least admit we don’t know or are not certain. “This was so that the blessing of Abraham would come to the nations by means of Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.” Is this “spirit” different from those claiming to be “anointed with spirit”? Did you know that there are five different Greek words translated into English as “spirit”?

    The Greek word we are interested in is: pneuma ( pnyoo'-mah ). It can be used in many ways, such as:
    But this is how the birth of Jesus Christ took place. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit”. . . (Mt 1:18 NWT ) Here is a problem that I perceive with some translations. They capitalize Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, which did not have capitalization or punctuation marks. There were no paragraphs, not even spaces to separate ideas within the information. The reader was taught how to understand. Most listener's were illiterate. Could not read. It was read to them, either in the synagogue, or public square.

    It was my understanding (taught) that the “Revised 1970 & 1984” NWT capitalized you, as YOU, in the letters to those, as a group, who were anointed. I had never heard of this before. Example: “. . .among which nations YOU also are those called to belong to Jesus Christ—” ( Ro 1:6 NWT ) “For I am longing to see YOU, that I may impart some spiritual gift to YOU in order for YOU to be made firm;” ( Ro 1:11 NWT ) “The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for YOU, was he? Or were YOU baptized in the name of Paul?” ( 1 Cor 1:13 NWT ) And, elsewhere.

    Whoa, whoa!! “. . .among which nations you also have been called to belong to Jesus Christ—” ( Ro 1:6 NWT - 2013 Revision )
    For I am longing to see you, that I may impart some spiritual gift to you for you to be made firm;” ( Ro 1:11 NWT - 2013 Revision ) These are just two examples where changes are made.

    ( 2013 Revision Notes )
    Omission of indicators for second person plural. Past editions also indicated whether the pronouns “you” and “your” and second person verbs were singular or plural by using small capital letters to show plurality. This feature was not retained in this revision, but readers may consult earlier editions of this translation for this information.

    All adjustments in the Bible text were made prayerfully, carefully, and with deep respect for the fine work of the original New World Bible Translation Committee.
    __________________________________
    Did the new “Translation Committee” understand who the bible writers had in mind? Were they speaking to specific individuals (those who were anointed or “second person verbs” ), or the entire congregation? How did they make that judgement call? “All adjustments in the Bible text were made prayerfully, carefully, . .” Hmmmm. It still does not answer the question of who these scriptures were addressed to: All of the congregation, or only those chosen?

    How many here are aware of these changes and what effect this has on the previous teachings?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother...

    It is my opinion, the Watchtower has previously attempted to understand Biblical precedence; however, as for current governing heads, I do not know as to their intent.

    It has always been my understanding, the Watchtower taught that the Bible is written to the chosen, and speaking unto them, unless specifically addressing another group. In this, I have in fact, always agreed.

    The entire theme of the Bible can be summed up within the very first prophecy: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” (Gen 3:15)

    Within this verse contains the whole of Jehovah's plan of returning his way of rule back to creation; and that includes the chosen. "as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world." (Eph 1:4)

    From the twelve loaves of the showbread, to the 144k, it is the Word that lights the way for the priests steps, and it is the Word that guides them in their work before him.

    I can see no other reasoning, that brings about more resonance, then to say: Precedent in Scripture, is that text speaks to the chosen.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Read my post under Apologetics - Defending our Faith. It’s about language use.

    What you are saying, as I understand, is the Bible was written for “the chosen/anointed”, and everyone who accepts Jesus as the Christ, is one of the 144,000. Maybe I mis-understand your statement. Or, those who accept the Bible teaching, that those who accept Jesus as the Christ, will be saved in the end. That is, after Armageddon. No?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No, I believe the 144k are literal. I also believe the chosen are the 144k literal individuals.

    I have come to believe that text was written to the 144k individuals, and all context reflects this.
     
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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    So, to the more difficult points to be made- what biblical support is there for this new covenant to be specific to the 144k? John 1:29, 3:16, the whole 17th chapter, and Romans 1:16 seem to imply that (although there will also be a subgroup with a particular assignment) the overall message from christ was for us all. Romans 2:17-29 seems to address that rather specifically.

    I don't doubt that certain people will be set aside for certain tasks when it's time... but I see no scriptural support to suggest that what a person's task may be in the future would be known before it happens, let alone should change how they should be treated before that task begins (while they live on earth).

    Otherwise, if the new covenant replaces the old, but does not apply to us... are we still under Mosaic law? Or no covenant at all? Sure we would bemefit from this new covenant... but if the "You's" and "We's" are specific to people who assume they will later be a group of people (less than a ten-thousandth of a percent of the population)... then what all applies?

    Jesus says "Keep doing this in remembrance of me" at the same time he guides people to eat the symbolic emblems... we interpret the first part to apply to everyone, but the 2nd to apply to a specific tiny group of people? Are only the 144k assigned to preach?

    Again, what evidence is there that a person who will later be anointed would even know before that time actually comes? (Apart from circular reasoning similar to the pope and people of other religions claiming "to be prophets, and should be believed to have authority because they have the authority and should believe they have it.")
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You see, just because the Jewish nation had the covenant for the Messiah, that did not mean no one from the nations had the prospect of a resurrection. The covenant arrangement is simply a matter of prophecy, a way of identifying the appointed times; whether that be the first arrival of our Lord, or his second.

    Just because someone is technically not spoken of as under a covenant in Scripture, does not mean they do not have salvation. The structure of prophecy within the text is simply a matter of metaphors, and covenant arrangements are no different.

    Again, I would ask: What purpose does a covenant perform? Are not covenants simply a tool of prophecy?

    The text indicates Cornelius as the first Gentile to come under the new covenant, and this was in fulfillment of the prophecy given to Peter of the sheet from Heaven; however, does that mean no other person of other nations before him will have the prospect of a resurrection? Surely that is not so; therefore, covenant arrangements in Scripture are simply matters of prophecy, for God's people to understand appointed times.

    The question to ask is: What prophetic reason is there for making a new covenant with his disciples the night of Passover? Was it given in order for his disciples to obtain salvation? No, for we know salvation comes by faith in him. So then, the covenant is simply a matter of prophecy, and a way for his disciples to understand the prophetic structure within the text.

    Remember how the first covenant was fulfilled. Daniel 9:24-27, concerns itself completely with the Divadic covenants fulfillment. It is by understanding the sixty-ninth week, one can determine when that covenant was fulfilled, and the seventieth for the inclusion of all others; however again, this is just a matter of understanding the chronology within prophecy, and not who is saved and who is not.

    I invite you to separate the idea of salvation from covenants, by considering John the Baptist. You see, John missed the new covenant by the fact of his untimely death. He will not be part of the 144k simply because he is not under the new covenant; but, does that mean he will not be resurrected? Of course not...

    By John's example, it is assured that the new covenant is unto the 144k alone, as they fulfill the showbread of the Holy Place, a priestly class set aside for more responsibilities. The new covenant is a kingdom given to rule, not an entrance ticket; Faith in Christ Jesus is your entrance, he represents the gates of the sanctuary.

    I invite you to remember God's commands for peoples of the nations encamped with the Israelites. Even though such ones were not under covenant law, they were expected to live as though they were. Then, by these ones reading the Torah, Moses's words also applied to them, by nature of them simply applying to all men.

    No matter the nation of old, or race, God's love extended to all, and it is only a matter of fulfillment of prophecy that a covenant is present within Scripture. In this way, I would say that the Jewish nation was simply a tool to fulfill prophecy, and in no way had a monopoly on the forgiveness of sin.

    As I have said before: Unfortunately it is evidenced, many who believe they are part of the 144k, are not. Many have deceived themselves, for one reason or the other.

    The ones chosen before the world was founded, would no doubt have great responsibility, in the work of the Lord; and a singular event such as what the 120 experienced at Pentecost, changes someone in ways that can't be easily understood by others. Not that they are no longer under the sinful condition, but that their responsibilities are completely changed.

    Jehovah's prophets in the end, will know ahead of time what God's plans are, before they occur. This is the way Jehovah has always accomplished his will; from Noah, Moses, Jonah, etc...

    "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets." (Am 3:7)


    Does this make sense?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    OK, I get it. Yes, just as the original covenant with Israel. They gave it up by rejecting the NEW King. So the new covenant is with the NEW co-rulers, 144,000. Other believers will be resurrected into the NEW Kingdom.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Yes, this makes sense. I had a problem understanding how certain individuals could claim to be one of the 144,000. Then, understanding of the covenant arrangement, it could be that they were one of the chosen. But like Judas, lost their right, for some untold reason, even by claiming to have the anointing and never having it to begin with.

    For Tricky Sam: John 17 is written for the chosen, anointed, elect, how ever they may be titled. And, also included are those who will be citizens of the new Kingdom. But mainly written to the 144,000.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hey Josh,
    I listened to a Pastor/Minister the other day on the Tube. He confirmed what you have been saying all along about “Who” the letters were written too, and to whom Jesus directed his speeches. So the you, YOU, were the Anointed/Chosen/Elect/Saints = 144,000. :)

     
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