Hi All

Who is the nation Jesus indicated would finally produce its fruits? The answer is more obvious than we would like to admit.

 

There is no nation, there is no Jew, there is no Greek, but you are all one nation through Christ.

The answer is quite simple really:

those who deny Jesus is the word of God, and those who don't.

"the nation"

Humans love to create divisions though.

Jehovah knows that the "good Samaritan" is without borders!

 

It's been a few days Londoner, so I'll follow-up with agreeing with you that Romans 11 and Zechariah 12 indicate that the literal sons of Abraham will recognize that Jesus is the messiah.

Complexities ensue! We Jehovah's Witnesses should note that Charles Russell wrote extensively about what Londoner is espousing.

The "Good Samaritan" is the message of the Bible though -- so we foolish golden-calf-loving humans should be cautious of placing genetics, kingship, lineage, status and things like this above the 2 greatest commandments.

The "nation of Israel" in the middle east though? Watch out that you aren't deceived.

 

Hi SingleCell

This is not about creating divisions. Why can't we accept God's word, and His will? God had a covenant with the nation of Israel only. They broke it, and He concluded another covenant (NC) with the same nation, but with the Law written in their hearts. Only a few thousand accepted Jesus to bring themselves into the NC, they rejected him as a whole, and the last original Jews in Jerusalem (2-tribe) were either destroyed by the Romans, enslaved or were scattered into the nations.

Those of the apostles and other Jewish Christians continued the preaching work, trying to reach the "people of the nations", the 10-tribe Jewish descendants who had been banished by God from Israel years before the time of Jesus, and scattered among the nations. That is why all the so-called "Gentile" books are not non-Jews, but actually Jews, with the audience having Jewish backgrounds and being descendants of the ancient "forefathers" or "baptised into Moses".

I will continue with your second reply.

Londoner

 

Hi SingleCell

I'm sorry, I thought your first post was not requiring an answer. I thought it was frustrated resignation! I've said this many times in my other essays and my replies to posts, but readers of this forum can't seem to get the point. Here it is again:

The bible is talking about the true descendants of the biblical Israelites who God cursed in Deu 28-29 for breaking His covenant with them. The Jews that are in Israel now are Ashkenazi and Khazarian Jews, of European origin. Jesus mentioned these false Jews in Rev 2:9 and 3:9. They are not the real descendants of the Biblical Israelites who were sent into slavery, dispersed into other lands worldwide, persecuted, and where God continues to turn His face from them. Many of them don’t realise who they are, but quite a few now are awakening. Even among the curses in Deuteronomy, God said the Jews would eventually remember who they are and return. Zechariah says the same.

Deu 30:1-3: “And it must occur that when all these words will come upon you, the blessing and the malediction, which I have put before you, and you have brought them back to your heart among all the nations where Jehovah your God has dispersed you, 2 and you have returned to Jehovah your God and listened to his voice according to all that I am commanding you today, you and your sons, with all your heart and all your soul, 3 Jehovah your God must also bring back your captives and show you mercy and collect you again from all the peoples where Jehovah your God has scattered you.

Zec 10:9 – And I shall scatter them like seed among the peoples, and in the distant places they will remember me; and they must revive with their sons and return.

All the prophets in some way, including Jesus as detailed in the essay, say that God will forgive the original Jews, revive them, bring them back to their soil (land) and restore the kingdom. Israel will have a temple once more, and Israel will rule over the earth, with all the nations serving them, giving their resources and blessing them forever. None of the many prophesies makes sense without a literal fulfilment and realising who God's true people are today.

But most here reinterpret the prophesies "spiritually", and thus lose its meaning entirely.

Londoner

 

This is the heart of the matter, and on some level, one of the primary discussions in the Bible.

"who are God's people"?

Was it Israel? When? Who? All? Some?

Peter explains in detail, who "they" are:

It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing,

“the stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone” and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.”

They are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were appointed.

But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession,

that you should declare abroad the excellencies”*

of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.

------------------------------

There are no barriers -- The 144,000, whether literal or metaphorical, are Jew and Gentile alike. Male and Female.

In what way are those "chosen ones" virgins do you think?

Spiritual or literal?

I've studied with Seventh Day Adventists and other forms of the "Israel are the chosen ones" viewpoint [as a student], it's a trap, I'm telling you bro!

The verses you've cited are fulfilled, spiritual, or relating to Romans 11 when Jehovah re-grafts some component of Abraham's physical descendants back into the tree of life. [IMO]

The stick of Ephraim and Judah become one (Ezekiel 37) so there is no distinction.

------------------------------

Jews claim to be God's only chosen people.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be God's only chosen people.

Catholics claim to be God's only people.

And on and on we go.

What a bunch of malarkey!!

 

Yes!

This is why Moses came down the mountain twice, once for "physical Israel" and once for "spiritual Israel".

The mainstream "literal Israel" interpretation of these prophecies misses the entire overtone of the symbolic aspect of the scriptures.

And having been around a lot of this form of worship in the past, I'll tell you, it quickly devolves into nonsense about America protecting Israel with military expression... and I see a massive deception at the end of this line of scriptural reasoning.

"the third temple has to be restored" [etc etc]

There are fictional novels and movies about this LOL ... "Left Behind" is all about restored Israel fighting against the "anti-Christ"

It seems to me that the precedent is "the least likely people" become Jehovah's agents.

[Good Samaritan]

The people everybody hates and mocks, but who have "love among themselves".

"God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are"

 

They might do it!

[build the temple]

In the same way a lot of people have been prepped for an "alien presence", many have been prepped with the "third temple literal Israel" prophetic framework.

IF this is the lead-up to the conclusion, all of these concepts that are being dumped on us can only lead to one thing:

deception

The Islamic holy site being located on the "temple mount" is a bit too perfect to ignore.

Imagine "fire raining down from heaven" in the sight of man ... except this time, Elijah isn't there, but Satan ...

 

Not hard to see either eh?

Londoner's viewpoint works here, as I agree with him that Zechariah 12 / Romans 11 suggest the Jews being grafted back in.

So in a roundabout way, the "Jerusalem" centered framework probably has some truth to it.

Where I think you and I would agree, and disagree with Londoner, is that "God's people" currently and forever more are Jesus followers, not Abraham's children.

"But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies”

"10 people taking hold of one Jew" should be read spiritually, the alternative being the trap.

 

Why cannot they be the ones to declare this PEACE AND SECURITY....,,Just a weird thought Ive had for a bit

 

I have had the same thought sister! It would make sense ... the perfect end-chapter of the Bible.

"A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in"

"True, with respect to the good news, they are enemies for your sakes; but with respect to God’s choosing, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret"

"For God has confined all of them together in disobedience so that he might show all of them mercy"

- Romans 11

The apostate nation which is following the Talmud and practicing the Kabbala become center-state during the conclusion (already is!!); out of which comes a section of the Jewish people who recognize the Christ (see Zechariah 12 last paragraph)

Perhaps these are who represent Ephraim, the "stick of Joseph" who is rejoined with "Judah" (Christians), so that "they become one stick" and have one King (the prophecy in Ezekiel 37)

The two shattered sets of the Ten Commandments, the older son and younger son.

Maybe this explains the repeating themes in Genesis, and why Jacob makes peace with Esau, and Esau receives him with open arms.

"Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, threw his arms around his neck, and kissed him. And they both wept."

- Genesis 33:4

The two "false sticks" perhaps "two horns" which come up like a lamb and speak as a dragon is the counter-part deception?

So who would they be?

 

Very very very fascinating indeed.....I don't have your depth or Josh's or Utunas....I'm like wallflower...meat and potatoes with the scriptures ....
But clearly something is going on with Israel /Jeruselum....why I'm starting to wonder that they will give out this Peace and Security cry is that it will be the utmost insult to Jehovah and Jesus....and it will come from the mouths of antichrists....

I know I'm not getting your point on....so who would they be?.....I'll keep trying

The world and the UN has talked PEACE AND SECURITY....since the Second World War....indeed the First World War even...and especially since the fall of the Berlin Wall....so I tend to think we are looking in the wrong direction .....
I do beleive we will all travel back to Jeruselum and be taught by the princes of the earth....as Jehovah did promise Abraham and Joshua and Kaleb that land forever ......he has to keep that promise to them....I know you don't beleive that Josh.....also the last few years I have read that is exactly what Russel believed as well...
But these are just my thoughts and wonderings..that I cannot prove by scripture........YET!!!..hahah

 

Don't underestimate yourself sister!!

Jehovah chose the "foolish things of the world" [of which I'm a card-carrying member]

When you see someone hurting, you want to help them, yes? You pray for God's spirit yes?

Well, you're the type Jehovah reveals his secrets to!

------------------

I don't know the answer to the question of "who would they be" either

Kinda sounds like I do when I phrase it as a question though eh?

Is the "fire from heaven" in Revelation 13 an allusion to Elijah against the priests of Baal?

"And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind."

Maybe that "fire" in the sight of man is the anti-thesis of Elijah proving Jehovah is the True God.

And Satan is able to convince man that his agent is "god", "alien", "creator".

The only thing I believe we can say for certain is that Jehovah will identify his agent through love and truth.

The least likely agent.

And the enemy will do the opposite, the most grandiose, an appeal to the flesh and ego.

Promises of 'being like God" in some way, shape, or form.

 

Well I was going to say I'll meet up with you over Jeruselum way and we would discuss it more....wink wink..and then I thought,..ooh no..he probably won't be there ..hahah

I don't see any mass conversion...there are already Jews serving Jehovah..and Palestinians..Arabs etc.....but there could be a false conversion ....and they make out they have this wonderful PEACE AND SECURITY......just thinking that's all....and probably wrong too...not to'worry....