Yes, knowledge is like meds, it may soothe on one side but, on the other side, the side effects can be difficult to manage and, at times, to overcome...

We all need the prayers of each other.

 

just want to let you all know I have been paying attention
and taking in all that's being said here . I have a lot of
reflecting to do as my primary focus for years has been as
a single mother of four and my only concern was "he that
does not care for his own is worse than an infidel" So refocusing
back to my own original intent of pursuit of the love for the
Oracles of God and the Word of Truth and getting back on
tract of the only things that hold my interest in the outworking
of the will of Jehovah and of Christ Jesus . The board here is
more than comfortable and lends many perspectives that
require reflection ..My ability or inability to write in a manner
that conveys what learning or teaching or understanding I
have arrived at is limited in that I have not been in close
association with any groups of ANY kind since I barely had
time for even anything that could be considered remotely
social ..being also prohibitively shy outside of written com-
munication unless I know you fairly well . The few years I
spent at the hall I did not join the school even now if I could
I would not ..my areas of expertise do not run in that vein .
So that pretty limits input that I might consider constructive
for myself or others . So we'll just have to see how that goes,
but adding to prayers is not so difficult a thing to request..
thank you all for your patience , that is a quality that is
endearing ...Mic

 

Dear Mic,

Wow, courage and abnegation mustn't be meaningless words to you. That's a wonderful and rewarding job to raise a family but it must have been a real challenge for you to take care, being single, of four kids and to make them become sturdy, balanced and wholesome adults. People often forget how hard, time-consuming, tiring and challenging it is for single mothers to take care of their family. Things mustn't have been easy to deal with on a daily basis and I'm sure that you deserve the utmost respect and praise for this, like all single mothers.

I wish I had had the same opportunity as you but was robbed somehow of it for some reason. We all have deep and bleeding wounds in our hearts and leaving it all in Jehovah's hands is for sure the best way to have them healed, even cured, with joy at heart and to have our affective needs fulfilled in one way or the other.

Dear Mic, please, I hope that here, you'll feel like home. We're all friends and truth lovers. Well, as you've been lurking and being a members of this forum for a long while now, you know how things work and how much we appreciate you.

 

Dear Diagonal,

The point in my previous post is that if there is to be a dynamics, an impetus, in our deeds, it must be upward and not downward on spiritual grounds. What's the point in removing ourselves from that which we consider an untruthful situation if we end up in another situation which is worst than the first : "Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.â€" - 2Pe 2:20-22

Said otherwise, what's the benefit of acquiring the "truth about the truth" if someone loses one's faith in God as a result, puts faith in Xfiles-like stories or ends up saying and doing things which God condemns ? If people think that God will approve their sacrifice for the sake of truth whilst they sin, overlook their responsibilities to that end and also trample others' rights and feelings, they're lying to themselves.

You talk about love for truth in your post and I agree that most of those who act and react do it out of love for truth. However, as I said in my previous post, Paul said that the prophets had to be able to control the gifts which they received. So to speak, knowledge is a gift and I do think that our reactions when confronted with disturbing knowledge/revelations should remain under control. To remain under control isn't to keep silent but to decide when it is wise and appropriate to speak out. In other words, our actions must have a goal, just as Paul : "I run with purpose in every step. I am not just shadowboxing."

"He that is slow to anger is better than a mighty man, and he that is controlling his spirit than the one capturing a city." - Prov.16:32

"As a city broken through, without a wall, is the man that has no restraint for his spirit." - Prov.25:28

"All his spirit is what a stupid one lets out, but he that is wise keeps it calm to the last." - Prov.29:11

"Better is one who is patient than one who is haughty in spirit. Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones." - Ecc. 7:8-9

My point is that it's not because someone loves the truth that he must break out an all-out war, run headlong towards overt contestation for the sake of martyrdom, lay into everyone not agreeing with him and bash others endlessly and contemptuously as many people do on Internet. As a saying goes : "That's not the suffering that makes the martyrdom but the cause". That kind of behaviour is rooted in the distorted Judeo-Christian and Catholic frame of mind according to which we must suffer in order to please God (see the cilice). Although suffering, carrying the torture stake (or the cross according to other Bibles) is a full-fledged part of the Christians' fate, we should accept it whenever it comes and not run headlong to it just for the sake of being a martyr for whatever cause we may have espoused.

Zeal is unfortunately too often mixed up with thoughtlessness... Speaking out thoughtlessly isn't courage, that's being rash, foolhardy.

There are countless accounts of people on Internet who, after having come to know the "truth about the truth", ran headlong towards the elders of their local congregation in order to criticize overtly the WT, tried to explain what they had understood of said "truth" and found themselves marked or disfellowshipped as a result...

That kind of behaviour reminds of the Judean's people front : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHk2RSMCS8

Just as the Judean's people front, some people decide to sacrifice themselves for the sake of what they consider the truth... and what then ? Is it really the truth ? Those people don't know the Truth, they just realized that what they considered as truth all their lives wasn't so in the end. They ignore the Truth... just as we all do so what are they sacrificing themselves for ? Is it what Jehovah really wanted them to sacrifice themselves for ?

Please read that anecdote about B. Franklin : "One day Mr. Franklin was asked why he failed 2000 tries to make a light bulb? He told this gentleman that he hadn't failed, he had just learned 2000 ways not to make a light bulb."

In the same vein, those people keep ignoring the Truth and just found out that there is another erroneous doctrine, among countless others. They tell to themselves : "I don't know what the Truth is but I know what it is not and I'm going to sacrifice myself for this". If the JWs don't possess the Truth, will we possess it if we leave them ? If Truth really matters in Jehovah's eyes, what difference will it make ? Will Jehovah forgive us more willingly if we're wrong because of our own mistakes instead of because having been misled ?

My point here isn't to demonstrate that we shouldn't leave a religious organisation because they teach erroneous dogmas. What I want to explain is that the JWs being the less wrong religious organisation so far, people who leave it for knowing the "truth about the truth" rarely come back to traditional religions because the latter ones are worst than the JWs, and they thus end up on their own devices, making their own religious dogma "à la carte", according to what pleases them. They want to sacrifice themselves (being marked or disfellowshipped) for the sake of Truth but said Truth is a myth so what do they sacrifice themselves for ? They think that they sacrifice themselves for it but that's another lie, another pretext, just an intellectual and religious mirage.

If we truly analyse why people are willing to sacrifice themselves, it is for everything but for the Truth. Firstly, because the Truth doesn't exist. But also because that notion of truth (accurate knowledge) is again a remainder of the WT's frame of mind. Why are people so disappointed by the WT whenever they learn the "truth about the truth"? Because the religious authority of the GB is based on the supposed accuracy of its teachings, which is typified by the FDS. Many people think having freed themselves from the WT but disfellowshipping oneself won't free anyone from the WT because the jail cell is in their minds and hearts. Many active JWs will never be imprisoned whereas countless others will remain forever so due to the hold that the WT had and keeps having in their lives, before and after knowing the "truth about the truth" and being disfellowshipped for some of them.

Have you read ever Rebecca, a book written by Daphnée du Maurier, of which A. Hitchcock made a movie. That's one of the best psychological novel I've ever read. Daphnée du Maurier was a wonderful novelist and all of her books are very deep regarding the psychological outline of the characters therein. Interestingly, she wrote "the Birds" too, of which A. Hitchcock made a movie too. Anyway, my point here is that Rebecca is a young woman who has such a hold on people, had such a charisma that even dead, she was more alive and present in people's minds than before her death. And it was so to such an extent that her "presence" once dead became more and more unbearable to the main protagonists. You can't fight against a "ghost", so to speak.

The same is true regarding the WT. People think that they're free from the WT by being DA or DFd but the real prison is in their minds and hearts and as long as they don't work on themselves in that regard (showing thus that their religious frame of mind can't get over it*, is bugged, stuck, blocked due to an erroneous conception of it), they'll remain forever this way. Here, I'm talking about the WT but that kind of behaviour isn't specific to the WT as if it had some kind of magic spell on others. As shown by the novel, anything can imprison us (Catholic Church, fear of death, US government for paranoids, dead loved one, etc). However, even if that kind of behaviour isn't specific to the WT, the latter unfortunately fosters a frame of mind within the organisation which is conducive to lead to such behaviours those who are the most responsive to it on psychological grounds.

Getting back to my point, what I mean is that people judge the WT and the religious system in general in the light of what the WT has taught them. The measuring stick is accuracy, absolute accuracy and anyone who fails in that regard, he must be discarded (just as the WT must be for some who espoused the same frame of mind). That's why the JWs who have such a frame of mind too within the WT aren't able to acknowledge peacefully the possibility that the GB may be erroneous, leading them into full denial, and why those who learn the "truth about the truth" discard it all, throwing the baby with the bathwater. It's an all-or-nothing frame of mind, splitting, black-and-white, Manichean, fleshly... X-JWs apply on the WT and on the JWs what they in fact criticize them for. It is obviously pertinent that truth lovers be willing to look for the most accurate (or more precisely, the less wrong) religious system but once the "top" has been reached, the unique alternative thereafter is to be on our own, which constitutes, in my opinion, a religious relapse and a spiritual regression. Why ? Given what I just explained, you may understand what I mean but I'm going to develop it a little bit.

Please read :

"but Israel, although pursuing a law of righteousness, did not attain to the law. For what reason? Because he pursued it, not by faith, but as by works." - Rom9:32

"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." - Rom. 10:2-3

"And this is what I continue praying, that YOUR love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; that YOU may make sure of the more important things, so that YOU may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ, and may be filled with righteous fruit, which is through Jesus Christ, to God’s glory and praise." - Phil 1:9-11

"YOU were once darkness, but YOU are now light in connection with [the] Lord. Go on walking as children of light, for the fruitage of the light consists of every sort of goodness and righteousness and truth. Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord;" - Eph 5:8-10

"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know [it] just as he ought to know [it]. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him." - 1 Cor.8:1-3

"Really, by your knowledge, the man that is weak is being ruined, [your] brother for whose sake Christ died. But when YOU people thus sin against YOUR brothers and wound their conscience that is weak, YOU are sinning against Christ." - 1Cor.8:11-12

Here, the principle is applied to meat but it can be extended to many other areas. I mean, the principle of respect, dignity and love that we owe to others. We must find ways to defeat evil by good. The principle is not to make others stumble by our knowledge. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't speak out, it just means that speaking out and denouncing and exposing bluntly others' faith isn't a demonstration of love for the weak ones.

That's where what you said about the consequences comes into play. The consequences for whom ? For you or for others ? Besides sacrificing yourself and maybe the peace of your family if you have one, what are you able to provide them in exchange of what they already have ? If the goal is to upbuild, uplift them, won't your decisions rather wreck chaos and mess ? I mean, aren't there other ways to teach your new values and understanding than just by giving a kick to the anthill and trying naively during the fray that ensues to explain your relative that you did it all out of love for truth ? If you know how things work and know the rules of the game in that regard, is it really a wise and a pertinent way to act in order to fulfill the goal that you have in mind ? How many X-JWs complain that the elders didn't care about what they had to say and were shunned and DFd ? Well, that's the rules of the game for us all and you know how JWs will react so why do people whine and grumble when what had to be expected does happen? That's like someone jumping off a bridge and complaining thereafter because he fell down and got hurt. I'm not saying that JWs are right and that X-JWs are wrong. I'm just saying that there is a reality with which we must juggle the best we can. If we transgress the rules, we shouldn't expect people falling at our feet out of gratefulness for having freed them from false religion.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all." - 1Cor13:1-3

In my opinion, the kind of worship that we owe to Jehovah isn't a race towards absolute accurate knowledge in which those who are less wrong than the others have the right to make fun of, to bash, to belittle them. As I said previously, in a way similar to the sap being carried on its own by capillarity up towards the highest leaves, truth lovers are attracted upward, uplifted in their quest for truth and that's a normal and expected trend for them to separate themselves from definitively erroneous Churches or gatherings (From Latin ecclēsia, from Ancient Greek ἐκκλησία ("gathering")) and gather again in order to form another Church (gathering) where the teachings are more in accordance with their opinions. The problem being that such a decision isn't unfortunately conducive to unity... But, that's not my point here... My point is that although truth and the quest for Truth is an ideal for Christian, it should be strongly counterbalanced with love, just as Jehovah's justice is counterbalanced with his mercy.

"For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all. For he who said: “You must not commit adultery,†said also: “You must not murder.†If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law. Keep on speaking in such a way and keep on doing in such a way as those do who are going to be judged by the law of a free people. For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment." - James 2:10-13

Those who may happen to know "the truth about the truth" and who may decide to DA themselves or to get DFd as a token of their sacrifice for the sake of what they consider the truth should ponder over the reasons for which they do so. What is truth ? The implications of that sentence are twofold : 1) if truth is accurate knowledge and, by extension, accurate understanding only, will them being on their own devices enable them to find what they want to leave the JWs for ? Are they looking for the truth or their truth ? 2) if truth can be summed up to "Love is the fulfillment of knowledge", what decisions, and the situations that will ensue, will enable them to observe the best possible the Law, as illustrated by James' words. Will our determination to stick to our understanding of what truth is impede us from demonstrating love, justice and mercy to others ?

"“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!" - Mat23:23-24

Dear Diagonal, you talked about love for truth... but what is truth ? Furthermore, "love for truth" is like a tote bag expression. It may mean everything and the contrary of it. Before acting, reacting or speaking out, we should ask ourselves why and what we're doing it for ? We should avoid being blinded by what meets the eye, by what boils down to be self-congratulating and spiritually short-sighted decisions and we should keep in mind and heart the prize set before us, and as Paul said, if we want to win the prize, we must run according to the rules. But, what are those rules ? Truth AT ALL COST whereas nobody knows yet what Truth is ?

I would like too to comment what you said about Luther. Luther stood up in behalf of what he considered as truth. Besides the fact that any truth, as explained previously, is relative, how many people have the authority and the spiritual and intellectual abilities to accomplish what he did? Because that's the point of my whole post, that is, you wanna speak out, at the risk of being disfellowshipped ? Ok, do it but do it thoughtfully and with spiritually uplifting goal in mind and heart. Ok, do it but if you think that your former way of worshipping God wasn't approved by him, in what way do you intend to improve it and make it better than how the JWs worship him ? Frankly, Diagonal, from the accounts of countless people who have spoken out that we can read online or else, how many can be compared to Luther in their accomplishements and have furthered dramatically the way they serve God ? How many can state honestly that they love their neighbor better than before ? How many can state honestly that they preach now the Good News in better ways than before ? As we've seen previously and as proven by the origin of the word Church which indicates the fundamental place that gatherings had in the past, how many can state that their new situation has improved the way they apply the following verse : "Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near." - Heb 10:23-25

Last week, I read a book intitulated God. That book was great indeed ! As you will catch on from what's written in the link provided just before, what the author says isn't thoughtless statements.

Context : 1) He said that the VI[SUP]e[/SUP] century BCE was an axial period. Before then, worship was seen as something collective. After that period (see Jeremiah's words in that regard), worship started to be considered as something individual. 2) the word religion comes from the Latin word religare, of which one meaning is "to tie, to bind".

 

Apologies for late reply, your quote...

"If you wanna make a Muslim convert and wanna touch his heart with the truth, you must do it carefully. A Muslim has a Mosque in his heart and if you start criticizing, bashing and figuratively trying to destroy his Mosque with a pickaxe, he will get wild and will make you walk out the door in no time.

If you wanna touch his heart, you must let his Mosque intact in his heart and build a Kingdom Hall besides it... Build that Kingdom Hall with solid materials (1Cor3:10-15) and whenever he is ready and sincere, he will compare in his heart the Mosque and the KH and will thus notice unmistakably where the truth is.



These are very wise words Utuna far better than the bull in the china shop technique. I have actually seen a sister I know criticise a Muslims religion and not in a tactful way either, all it did was get his back up. The fact that they believe in Abraham and Jesus this is a good place to start as we share common ground.

Thank you
Shikinah

 

Dear Utuna,

thanks for taking the effort to air your thoughts on this matter,
which is a good step towards dialogue and a real help to
understanding the reasons and motivations behind what
people believe.

I noticed before that you think that nobody knows the truth,
which explains a lot about your attitude towards it,

because one cannot really love or even deal with something
that is largely unknown.

Now to admit to this shows a great honesty and humility,
because most people would rather project all their views
as based on truth, than consider the possibility of them
being wrong, insufficiently informed or resting on
wrong premises.

Having said that, there exists a common fallacy which
arrises out of human psychology, namely, that since WE
cannot understand or know something, NO ONE else
could possibly either.

While this can be a good and natural protection for us
against being misled by others, it also easily stops us
from learning important things we would otherwise
not think possible.

For example, I have no idea how computers work, and since
I hold myself to be reasonably intelligent and experienced,
I could easily conclude that nobody else could possibly know
either,

except that I would, of course, be totally wrong in this
assumption; and it is the same way when it comes to
the matter of truth.

So I now understand the reason for your reticence when
it comes to proclaiming the truth, and you do well not
to profess something you are not absolutely sure about;
at least nobody can accuse you of hypocrisy that way,
the worst of human failings.

However, a balance needs to be struck here, because
knowledge of truth can only be acquired on the basis of
faith -

the expressed and honestly held desire of the ideal
reality as reflected in the promises and teachings of the
living word of God, as corroborate by His Spirit in our
hearts.

Faith comes from the thing heard, and therefore we
speak, so that if we consent to receive the witness men
give, the witness God gives is greater and confirms
the truth about His Son in our hearts.

Now, I hear your concern about the truth possibly having
a negative effect on those not quite willing and ready to
receive it,

but you need not worry in this regard because the truth
actually does the opposite; it purifies the souls of those
wanting to obey it, which directly leads to unhypocritcal
brotherly affection as the result. 1. Pe 1:22

Nobody has to profess to be a Christian, but those doing
so HAVE to be obedient to the truth and hold it in good
conscience, as it is progressively revealed to them.

‘He that has, more will be given to him; but he that does
not have, will have EVERTHING taken away from him!’

‘If you KNOW these things, happy you are IF you DO them.’

The truth is like a torch in the dark; you can only ever see
as far as its beam shines from the position you are at right
now.

Now, to use your logic, just because I cannot possibly
see the end of where I am going, I might as well switch
the torch off and stay where I am –

since I don’t have absolute light, the torch is useless
and I am better off in the dark where I am stuck now,

because, after all, nobody else can see the end of the
road either, so what’s the use even talking about the
light?

No! You only get to see as far as you are willing to progress
with the light beam that God shines in front of you;

if you stop, the light will stop, and leave you in the dark
altogether if you stay there too long and let the
precious energy in the battery go to waste out of
fear of the darkness which lies beyond the reach of
the beam.

Yes, our current beliefs may be erroneous in certain
areas, but he that stands for nothing will fall for
anything, as the saying goes.

And besides, if people are looking for an excuse to get
out of the responsibility for whatever level of truth
they have been blessed with,

then even God is more than willing to provide them
with such, because He does not want anybody to
be ‘burdened’ and ‘inconvenienced’ by its enlightening
freedom;

so we need not be worried about stumbling such people
with the truth since they never really were of our sort.

Misuse of a good does not provide reason against its proper use.

Just because people are lying against the truth does not
mean that we cannot get to know it or that it doesn’t
as yet exist.

You are right that a lot of ex-JWs seem to get worse after
leaving the WT, because the outward constraint of
conformity to group approved behaviour comes off,
and the real person shines through the theocratic
façade.

But would these people really be better off if they
had stayed in the organization in ignorance of the
real truth, only to have the secrets of their hearts
exposed later on during the great tribulation, when
there is no more time left for repentance?

I think not.

The problem with the WT is not that they were wrong
on some key issues, but the boundless religious pride
and arrogance with which they are resisting the
progressive light of truth,

while in other areas they are presumptuously running
ahead of God in their institutionalised contempt for the
Body of Christ, the only real and true congregation of God.

I like and share your concern for those spiritually weak,
but if somebody is TRULY weak, he will gladly accept
help from those qualified and able to give it,

not resisting and trying to drag them down to their
level and the spiritual hole that they are in.

You mention the ‘rules’ of the ‘game’ of our interacting
with others - and witnesses often hide behind this
principle of conformity -

and playing by THEIR rules would be fine if they
would lay claim to no more than being a special
interest group of sorts,

but since they claim to be the one and only truth there
is, they cannot just make the rules up as they go along,
just as Paul once said:

‘Is it from you that the truth went out, or is it only
as far as you that it reached?’

We have Scripture which everybody can read and
is bound by, because God is not a respecter of
persons, especially not those who self-appoint
themselves over others.

By the way, he who said not to forsake the gathering
of ourselves together, also said this on the proviso that
we SPEAK TRUTH each one with his neighbour!

Scripture clearly declares the primacy of the word
of God in the heart of the individual above the
interpretation of man from the pulpit for the sake
of unity, by saying: ‘What does light have to do with
darkness?’

But you seem to differ from this precept, and I think
you, and those who conditioned you to this persuasion,
are scripturally wrong.

A disciple of Christ must be like his Master, more outspoken
than Luther or even Paul when it comes to truth and the
love of it.

The value of truth is more than that of any person,
a cup that Jesus found hard to drink, because it
applied even to Him despite His glorious position
as the Only Begotten of the Father.

If we love truth any less than our own soul, we are
not worthy of Him who died for it on our behalf,
it is as simple as that.

You cannot worship the God of truth knowingly with lies,
and: “NO lie originates with the truth!â€￾

 

Dear Diagonal,

I'm sorry to have to ask this but have you really read my post or is your reply destined in fact to someone else than me ?

 

...................

 

good one John ...I enjoyed the illustration
down on the true comic level ..which frames
the vilification used against those who
continue to research and question , as growing
and learning good and throwing away whats bad
is not stagnant but ever seeking correction ..
But God forbid if someone else sees the answer
before you do ....oh mighty instructors in truth

 

Dear Utuna,

I thought I had responded to a sufficient number of issues
you raised; but please let me know if I have missed any or if
there are any areas in which you want me to be more specific.

 

Dear Diagonal,

What got me wondering isn't the number of issues that you raised but the fact that they are off-topic, in my opinion. I never wrote, not even implied, that which your comments are talking about. Either you're making direct comments based on my post or making general comments about the JWs but as the latter doesn't show in your post, I suppose that you were making comments based on my post. Besides the fact that I never wrote that which you're "reproaching" me, anyone knowing me knows that what you said is never what I ever thought, done or that it has never been like me.

 

Dear Utuna,

far be it from me to find fault with you as a person,
since I believe that you hold your views in good faith,
even though I disagree with some of them on scriptural
grounds.

But in order to make sure I have understood you correctly,
I will be more specific in explaining my responses to you;
and I mean to cast no dispersions on your character in
doing so,

since as Paul said, our warfare is spiritual and powerful
by God for overturning strongly entrenched reasonings
and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of
God, in order to bring every thought into captivity and
make it obedient to the Christ.

You said, QUOTE: “If we truly analyse why people are willing
to sacrifice themselves, it is for everything but for the Truth.
Firstly, because the Truth doesn't exist. But also because that
notion of truth (accurate knowledge) is again a remainder of
the WT's frame of mind. Why are people so disappointed by
the WT whenever they learn the "truth about the truth"?
Because the religious authority of the GB is based on the
supposed accuracy of its teachings, which is typified by the FDS.â€
UNQUOTE

My comments on this were meant to show that it is not
the notion that truth is absolute and the ultimate
touchstone of reality which is wrong - as implied in your view -
but that you are mistaken in your position that, QUOTE:
“Truth doesn’t exist.†UNQUOTE

Have I misrepresented your view here?

If so please explain.

There is nothing wrong with the WT and most other Churches
teaching the supremacy of truth, because it is firmly based on
Scripture.

The real problem is rather that they do not practice what they
preach, in that they teach commandments of men as doctrines,
which also happen to be lies.

Your solution of downgrading “accurate knowledge†and the
willingness of people “to sacrifice themselves†does not
address the issue at hand.

It is WHAT people CHOOSE to believe and then take a stand
on that constitutes the problem.

Like I said, just because most people leave the WT for the
wrong reasons of personal ambition and suchlike,

does not mean that those who know better can comfortably
ignore the truth and hope to impress the God of truth with
their worship;

and these are not my ideas, but those of Jesus Christ, who views
their worship as in vain, because their living a lie makes a mockery
of the word of God. Mk 7:6-9

Another point you make is this, QUOTE: “if truth is accurate knowledge
and, by extension, accurate knowledge only,†UNQUOTE

Right, I agree, because true Christians are such as have received
the Spirit of truth in their hearts; and anyone who does not have
Christ’s spirit does not belong to Him, and is not able to evaluate
truth independently from an organization which authoritatively
tells him what to think and what to believe.

So you either trust God’s Spirit in your heart or the claims of
men who demand subjection to them as the representatives
of God on earth.

The truth results from the divinely bestowed and Christ mediated
revelation of the Spirit of sonship in our hearts, which bears
witness in us as sons of His in Christ,

while the intellectual side of the truth is merely an explanation
of its theory, which even scholars are capable of grasping and
articulating.

I just wish you could enjoy our discussion about the nature
of truth as much as I do; so please help me to make it as
rewarding for you as it is for me.

By the way, if I seem hard on you, it is because I have
profound respect for you, and hate to see you
unduly influenced by the post modern deconstruction
of truth and the resultant ‘inclusiveness’ doctrine.

 

Dear Gabriel,

It's been a long time since I first wanted to write this post to you. Sorry, I've been quite busy lately with work and in my local congregation.

At first, my dear brother, I would like to tell you that your family and you are in my prayers often. According to what we know of your personal situation, we are aware that it isn't easy at all and that, so to speak, people don't always reap what they sow. Others may not always be aware of the efforts that it takes to make progress or may not be aware of the pain and ordeal through which we may be going, which may impede us from progressing as quickly as they wish we would. That doesn't mean that we didn't put all our hearts in the efforts we were making and that's not because others don't notice our progress that the latter isn't real and significant. Please, know that there are people out there who are concerned about you, who love you very much and who aren't impervious to the love and zeal that you have shown for our dear heavenly Father over the years. Of them, I'm one of the first ! I do hope that Jehovah helps your wife in giving her the Bible study conductor that she deserves.

My dear brother, you also asked in your post if there was someone or something for whom/which we would like others to pray. On personal grounds, I would like you, me and all to pray for those who all over the world, nearby or in distant places, think that Jehovah has forsaken them and think that there's nobody on earth who cares about them. I would like us all to have a tender thought for those who, because of pain, disappointment, maybe remorse or feelings of guilt, aren't able anymore to see themselves the way God and others see them. I wish so much they would see themselves through our eyes and notice at last all the beauty and the wonderment that they arouse therein. I wish so much they would understand how beautiful they are, that their beauty doesn't depend on what happened in the past, on the present situation or on what the future may have in store. They are beautiful and wonderful, that's a fact and an objective observation ! That's not because people made mistakes and may have hurt them in the past that said people are necessarily wicked. We're all so imperfect and awkward. Similarly, that's not because those who think of themselves as being forsaken, even feeling like being outcasts, that their past mistakes make them necessarily wicked and above all made Jehovah and others lose the deep love and tenderness that they had for them. Jehovah reads hearts and even if we humans can't read hearts, we've come to know and love them deeply and someone who truly loves does know how and when to read between the lines.

Regarding the childish and simplistic clichés about the JWs, we all know that there are all sorts of personalities, temperaments, backgrounds and sensitivities among the JWs, like in any other human group. If someone is fundamentalist and unloving, that's not because he is a JW but because of his personality (and mainly also because he didn't heed Eph4:23) and frame of mind. There are fundamentalists and unloving people all around the world, among Catholics, Muslims and atheists too. I personally know people who are Catholics and whom I wouldn't like to have in my congregation for the sectarianism and hardness that they have demonstrated during delicate and hurtful situations over the years. I know many, many loving and understanding JWs who will never shout from the rooftops the loving and caring deeds that they accomplish on a regular basis (Mat6:3) whereas for one or two stupid JWs who will act foolishly, victims or detractors will post tons of articles, videos or else so that the whole world may know the injustice of which they have been the object. Furthermore, as already said, the JWs too are imperfect, may act out of ignorance and obviously can't read hearts and minds. Misunderstandings happen so easily. According to a book, the sentence "if he truly loved me, he would understand my feelings without me having to express them openly" is one of the most stumbling and common ever in marital spats. That statement is plainly erroneous. The same is true in every human relationship, regardless of on what levels such need of communication takes place. Yes, communication is the key and lack of communication (or even miscommunication) is often at the root of the problems and spats. Obviously, it won't solve all the problems but may nip many in the bud. Situations may not take place because people are wicked but because of misunderstandings or lack of self-control. Seriously, who will remain impervious and/or reply kindly to constant bashing and provocations ? Why would a JW always react kindly and remain impervious in front of constant bashing from a X-JW blind with rage ? Are the JWs more saint than others in that regard?

Nothing is ever black and white and just as it's not because someone made a mistake that it makes him wicked, it's not because someone made a shortcoming against us that that individual is wicked.

Well, my point here in that post is that, extreme situations excepted, nobody is utterly wicked, being totally black or totally white. We all have a beautiful side and a shadowy side. That doesn't make us saints or devils. We must take our human nature into consideration in all its complexity and shades, when considering ourselves and others and not be judgmental and label ourselves or others. That reminds me of a Spanish saying : "Por una vez que mató un perro, mataperros le llamaron" which means "For one dog that he killed, a dog-killer they called him". Being forgiving and loving isn't being naive and having a simplistic reasoning. Even the Bible shows that it takes more courage and discernment to demonstrate kindness, mercy and love than being curt, snappy in our judgments and unforgiving. Kindness and mercy aren't a weakness, far from it ! I mean, kindness and mercy towards others and also towards ourselves...

Dear Gabriel, it may look easy for me to write all this but I'm imperfect too and it's often easier said/written than done. That's why we all need to pray in each others' behalf and above all for those who suffer, who feel a deep, deep pain in their hearts, who think that they are worthless and don't deserve love and care from anyone, not even from God. May Jehovah help them see all the beauty that they possess inside and that nothing past, present or future will ever make it disappear. May Jehovah help them understand that it's not because their pain doesn't always show that we're not aware of their sufferings or that we don't care. It's not always easy to react properly or to have the proper words uttered at the proper time. May Jehovah help them understand that there are people out there who love them, that will never judge them and that communication and trust are possible and are among the vital keys available to help things out.

I tried to express my thoughts and feelings the best I could in this post and I hope that I didn't fail in that regard. I'll answer Diagonal's post in the following days and keep us all in my prayers in the meantime...

 

Dear Diagonal,

Well, at last I could have a spare moment to dedicate to old posts to which I had to reply. Sorry for the delay.

First of all, I would like to express my appreciation for your kindness and for the respect that you demonstrated in your posts towards me. However, if I reacted this way, it wasn't because I felt offended but because I truly felt that I hadn't been clear enough in my post regarding that sensitive subject, which is sensitive to me as well. At some point, you said that my reasoning implied that it may have been better for people to stay in ignorance for their own spiritual safety, instead of being on their own devices and falling prey to spiritual predators potentially worse than the GB.

That's not what I said. I'll never endorse policies that promote spiritual paternalism or overprotection and especially so in wilfully maintaining people in ignorance for the sake of their spiritual wellfare. I've always denounced such ways, along with spoon-feeding people or telling them what they should do.

Paul said : "I am writing these things, not to shame YOU, but to admonish YOU as my beloved children." - 1 Cor4:14

In the same vein, most of the JWs today may be like children on spiritual grounds but the GB aren't Paul. They really can't compare to him and should really not seek to treat the JWs the same way as Paul given that they manifestly don't have the same amount of Holy Spirit as him. The JWs are grown up individuals, not kids and should be treated accordingly on spiritual grounds, no matter the consequences... unfortunately but that's the way it is.

Paul was truly an outstanding apostle, even compared with the Twelve, and yet, he wrote : "For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." - 1Cor13:12-13

Those verses are truly what I mean and have meant in all my posts so far and in the one I wrote to you. That's what I meant when I said that the Truth (capital letter) didn't exist. By Truth, I mean accurate knowledge in absolute ways. Until the moment when Holy Spirit comes down from heaven and enables the chosen ones to know "everything" and to stand up to any resister, there is no accurate knowledge in absolute ways. No matter how hard you pray and how long you study, if the Holy Spirit doesn't want you to cross the limits or to reach a certain level of understanding, you won't cross them or reach it ! Millions of people have been reading and studying the Bible for two thousand years and if it had been possible to reach an accurate knowledge and understanding of spiritual realities in absolute ways, we would know it, wouldn't we ?

So, if people think that by speaking out, by running headlong to the elders and by wanting others to consider them as spiritual heros because they stood up to the elders and accepted wilfully the negative consequences that logically follow, they'll have God's favor and have more knowledge and understanding than before, they are totally wrong. If accurate knowledge and understanding is really what Jehovah wants, whether those people are JWs or not won't make any difference. If that's what Jehovah really demands, then we're all doomed. As I explained countless times, to be free from the WT isn't a question of being disfellowshipped or not but is a real state of mind, just like being in the world for Christians doesn't necessarily mean that they endorse or participate in what's around them. That's not because someone leaves the JWs that his knowledge and spiritual understanding will soar and nothing really impedes the JWs to improve their knowledge and biblical understanding by thinking and reading outside of the box, so to speak. Personally, my library is full of books written by Catholics (even one written by the Pope Benedict XVI... lol), Protestants or else and nobody told me so far to make a book-burning in my courtyard. The jail is in people's mind. As for the GB, according to what they say, it may make me smile or cringe but I don't feel concerned by their bla bla bla. Similarly, many JWs don't serve the GB or the WT anymore but use the latter in order to worship Jehovah. As long as the WT and the GB don't ask things that are against God's laws, that's a matter of conscience. Interestingly, on practical grounds, that's not because something isn't scriptural that it is against God's law (Jr35:18-19). Conversely, observing overly a scriptural command can be against God's law. It may be a matter of conscience, though. For example, turning in the time spent preaching isn't scriptural but isn't against God's law either. It's understandable that people may be reluctant to do it and it's understandable that other people may don't mind doing it. Freedom of conscience must be universal and bestowed to all, otherwise that's not genuine freedom.

You said : "it is what the people CHOOSE to believe and then take a stand on that constitutes the problem". Exactly, but although you say so in applying it only to the JWs who are under the aegis of the GB, I apply it to all and in a much larger scale. That principle is universal, so to speak, mainly because of what I explained regarding the absence of accurate knowledge in absolute ways. That's like measuring units in the absence of a yardstick. We all know more or less what is the closest to the truth that the Holy Spirit has enabled sincere and truthful people to understand so far but in the absence of a real spiritual yardstick, Christendom and Christians in general are in a spiritual souk, an utter mess where people lose faith in what they were holding dear before and clutch at straws which pushes them to put faith in the least theory that makes sense to them. One day, I read the comments written by people in Robert's website about his articles and I was appalled by the shallowness of some comments and by the blather that they can churn out in all good faith ! That's the word for it !

Here then comes another point that I wanted to broach in my answer to you. You used Jesus' words in your post, saying that true Christians have received the Spirit of truth in their hearts and that truth has purified them, etc. I'm sorry to say so but applying Jesus' words in such general ways is a fundamental mistake. We all wish things were this way but we all must have to face the tremendous shock of our dreams and wishes crashing against the wall of reality. That's not a blasphemy or a lack of faith to reckon reality or to be realistic. One sentence I read once said : "Jesus' teachings talk about the good ones and the wicked ones, but he says nothing about the stupid ones..." That sentence may be unconventional but it broaches a certain reality that we all had to deal with one day. Even Jesus and Paul were lost for words :

"O senseless Ga·la′tians, who is it that brought YOU under evil influence, YOU before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed impaled? This alone I want to learn from YOU: Did YOU receive the spirit due to works of law or due to a hearing by faith? Are YOU so senseless? After starting in spirit are YOU now being completed in flesh?" - Gal.3:1-3

"So he said to them: “O senseless ones and slow in heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke!" - Luke 24:25

"For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth." - 2 Tim 3:6-7

"And so, brothers, I was not able to speak to YOU as to spiritual men, but as to fleshly men, as to babes in Christ. I fed YOU milk, not something to eat, for YOU were not yet strong enough. In fact, neither are YOU strong enough now, for YOU are yet fleshly." - 1Cor3:1-3

"For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong." - Heb5:12-14

I'm not being mean here, just realistic. I'm obviously not talking about intelligence and education here. Many people who mistakenly think that they aren't intelligent are much more so than many physicians or scientists. Moreover, the Bible (the NT included) is rife with examples of people who were far from being spiritually savvy. Didn't Jesus foretell that people would be judged and didn't Paul organize the congregations back in those days by appointing spiritually mature elders (to teach and discipline...) and didn't he blame too some individuals for their lack of faith or even their defection ?

"and that we may be delivered from harmful and wicked men, for faith is not a possession of all people" - 2 Thess.3:2

If all the men in the world received Holy Spirit and were granted accurate knowledge and understanding just by praying for it, we'd know about it, wouldn't we ? As a result, as I often said for scientific issues, if reality doesn't match with what the Bible says, it's not for the reason that the Bible is wrong but because our understanding of the Bible or of reality is wrong. That's as simple as that ! Furthermore, if people were spiritually omniscient at will just by praying to God, where would be the need of a FDS in the future ? Why would the FDS deserve to be rewarded for giving the spiritual food in a timely manner if all the Christians can receive whatever they want just by asking for it ?

 

Dear Shikinah,

Two days ago, I drove to another town in order to meet up with a very good friend of mine who needed words of comfort. I'm glad because when I was with him and his wife, we've had very deep spiritual discussions. They needed to be encouraged. There are problems in their congregation and they were a bit discouraged. We also talked about paedophilia in the org because the sister saw websites and troubling testimonies about it. I'm glad because they weren't too much shocked but they were sick about what's happening anyway. I was able to talk to them about it all, explain the ins and the outs with examples like the current issues in Australia, the Conti trial in the USA that the WT lost recently with millions of dollars at stake and also the issues in which the WT is wrong in the handling of the cases (two witnesses thing at all cost, threats of disfellowshipment for those who speak up, etc). They agreed in everything I said and they were reassured and comforted. They needed explanations and words of comfort. Even though they already stand back a lot from what happens in the org and have a balanced stance in that regard, I also told them that we must use the WT as a tool, keep it in its proper place and not consider it as an end in itself in terms of worship. They agreed. I told them that as we don't know in details how the GT will take place, the WT may disappear and the elders and brothers may turn into wolves, so we should already worship Jehovah in a personal way*, take the WT for what it really is and learn to be spiritually strong because one day, when persecutions do happen and that we're asked to abjure our faith with a gun aimed at us, there won't be the WT around or brothers anymore to encourage us. We'll be like the three Hebrews who faced death and who were willing to lose their lives so as to save it back through faith. They agreed wholeheartedly. I didn't tell them everything, about the erroneous teachings of the FDS, about Robert or else. I emphasized above all that no matter what they would happen to learn about the org or brothers and sisters in the future, what mattered the most was their relationship and love for Jehovah. They agreed too. Now, I know that if they ever are stumbled one day because of something else, they'll remember this discussion and may want to pour out their hearts once again to me and this time around, I'll be there for some more explanations.

I learned somewhat how to deal with this kind of situation through a personal problem. In many ways, figuratively speaking, we mustn't be a fountain but a well. We mustn't drown others, but others should be able to draw refreshing water from us whenever they need it. That's what I intend to do with my brothers and sisters too at every possible opportunity.

Regarding disfellowshipment, he also told me that one of his brothers who had been disfellowshipped in the past has been reinstated lately but the latter confessed recently to him that if he had asked to be reinstated, it wasn't because he wanted to be a JW back again but because he was missing his family....

* Another brother told me about 10 days ago that several of his friends (and brothers too) of his age with whom he grew up were either pending divorce because of cheating wives and/or had even been disfellowshipped because of the spiritual and psychological fallout of the ordeal that they were going through as a result. He was devastated. People cheat on spouses and go through divorce as if it were something ordinary, merely because they feel like it. There really are huge spiritual problems in the congregations. People follow their feelings and whims and Jehovah can wait.... That's beyond me !

 

Whenever I have a chance to catch up with brothers and sisters, I learn of issues and problems that are happening in the congregations also. Many brothers/sisters are concerned about what they see and the manner in which these problems are dealt with. When the Society isn't around anymore, it will be very important for the brothers/sisters to have a close, personal relationship with Jehovah. The Society will not be around to provide any direction or guidance. Those who are aware of the corruption within the Society, will be able to assist these brothers/sisters to get on their feet spiritually speaking. I think that we have a special ministry ahead of us, where we will be witnessing to the brothers/sisters who are already in the congregations. They will not be expecting the Society to fall so this event will come as a shock.

Wallflower

 

Hello Brother,
If ever I don't reply to posts, it due to my health hence why I am not on here as much as I'd like to be. Just want to to say thank you for sharing that encouraging account with us, Isn't it heart warming and encouraging when Jehovah uses us to help our brothers and sisters come to a clearer understanding of the events unfolding. It helps us also to realise that our time in the spiritual wilderness is now becoming clearer as to its true purpose. And rightly said we should become a place where others can draw refreshing water and not to drown and overwhelm them.
Yes I relate to what you are saying about the cheating and psychological fall out, a sister that I know told me that her baptised son had up and left his wife and baby to explore what it's like to be with other women.

The most worrying thing I heard was from an elder friend, who I hadn't seen for over a year, he came to see me and told me he was very depressed and stressed. Now this is very unlike this brother as he has always been very encouraging and strong minded, but I knew it must have been something bad. In the end he had to get if off his chest, and told me he was dealing with a child abuse case, where the teenage boy had gone to him and explained that he had been sexually abusing a 5 year old of a sister in the congregation, then he had to tell the abused childs mother, who was friends with the boys mother in the congregation.

The mother didn't want this to get out, as she was afraid that her daughter might be taken off her, as there had also been an abusive father previously in the home. To cut a long story short, word got out and the police got involved and wanted to arrest my elder friend as he was the one who heard firsthand. While in the police station they were threatening him, and he didn't know what to do, so he told the police to ring Bethel, but they kept handing it over to different people. Then the brother asked bethel for help and all they could say was it was down to the brothers own conscience and it was nothing to do with them.

He said for the first time in his life he had felt abandoned, and thought that he would have got helpful advice from Bethel, there he was about to be arrested, fortunately the boy had spoken to another brother who went with the boy to the police station.
I told my friend that "you can't rely on anyone not even those high up in the watchtower you are on your own, it's between you Jehovah and Christ Jesus, it's the same way that it will be in the end" and he looked at me shaking his head saying yes with tears in his eyes.

I'm finding it a great effort to attend meetings at the moment, but every now and then I have to remind myself it's not just about me, I prayed to see the bigger picture and have to run the race no matter how hard it gets

 

Hi Shikinah ,
that was encouraging and it seems that we are now offering support to ones like these, it has started!.
hopefully things will become even more obvious with time.
that poor brother, please keep an eye on him he really needs a lot of support now as he has been shattered and is disillusioned, just as we were once.
just think little old you are now proving to be a shelter from the storm.
who would want to be an elder now, how terrible for the honest hearted one.In relation to the abuser, it is good he came forward.
that took a lot of courage on his part.
i would have done as the elder I think, as the mother of the abused did not want it reported due to fear of loosing her daughter.
any one who deal with welfare would know her concerns would be justified.
what a terrible predicament for that elder.
i hope your health is a little better.

Sis thinking

 

Hello Thinking, hope you are keeping well
Yes life is funny this elder and his wife had a study with me when I was 21, Jehovah has always used him to try and get me on track, no matter how many years there has been in between. Now he isn't in great health but happy to see I have finally made the truth my own, he knows it wasn't in vain. He said it was one of the worst predicaments he had ever been in, and the stress too much for him to bare. He was glad to see that even I could see the bigger picture and that nobody is infallible especially those who take the lead.
Yes I am there for him how he has been there for me, Jehovah is truly great and provides when least expected.

As for me, I feel every day is a battle. My paralysis keeps me imprisoned, can only walk a short distance at the moment, the nervous disorder caused by my M.E causes my brain to feel dysfunctional and flare ups leave muscles in pain, then I end up missing meetings and end up beating myself up over it, sometimes the slightest noise can drive me mad, other times i'm fine.

Oh yes about a month or so ago we had a special talk by the district overseer, I think it's the talk which is suppose to be given to the public after the memorial. This was the the talk my son was suppose to come to, it was suppose to encourage him back to the meetings. Any way something came up and he couldn't go, and to be honest I was glad that he missed it as he would have been put off for life.

The whole talk was about the importance of field service, territory etc, I was falling asleep and thought surely this can't be for the public.
A week later while chatting to my bible study teacher, I told her about the talk and she said " oh no he was a stand in as the usual overseer had been disfellowshipped for being a naughty boy with the ladies. Surely they could have come up with an appropriate talk featured around the end times, one that would have the guests sitting on the edge of their seats?

There's something in the air and it's not good, but in away it is as Jehovah's bringing the dross to the surface, so that we can see the man of lawlessness and his works revealed in the sham of a spiritual paradise.


Blessings
Shikinah

 

Hi Shikinah

That elder would have been glad to have a listening ear. I am sure that Jehovah will use you to support him and others that you know. And yes, the works of the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

I'm sorry to hear about your health. May Jehovah continue to support you and to give you strength to cope. Keeping you in my prayers. I'm always encouraged by the brothers/sisters on this forum and in the congregations and the way in which they continue to endure despite trials.

Wallflower