The Stars of Heaven Fall

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Oct 31, 2016.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Brother, the first beast in Rev 13 comes against the covenant after the deathstroke... The deathstroke must come first, and the abyssing must come after.
     
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    SingleCell

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    Absolutely; just to clarify what I meant:

    ---------------

    Trumpet #1 is the initiation of the conclusion. Primarily a washing away of the whitewashed prophetic framework via the hail and fire, but in the secular world would translate to "sudden destruction" of the post-Roman nation-state system.

    Worldwide shock, 1914 (and all other prophetic frameworks) dissolved.

    ---------------------

    Trumpet #2 is the death-stroke (not the healing of the death-stroke, or rising from abyss)

    The "mountain" on fire, throw into the sea.

    The beast that "was" but "is not" but "will be present".

    Mountain on fire thrown into sea -> rises from sea / abyss as the final king

    ------------------

    Then between #2 and #3 trumpets, the healing of the death-stroke (and coming out of abyss) as the 8th king.

    Trumpet #3 and #4 are coming against the covenant. (Revelation 13 and 17 occur here)

    Trumpet #5 - 7 is the judgment of the nations.

    Somewhere here we have the 5th bowl "darken" the wild beast's kingdom; causing it to gather the other nations, for the final battle. (bowls 6 - 7)

    -----------------

    IF the death-stroke and abyssing are two separate events, then we have the 7th king "die" temporarily, come out of the sea as the eighth king, then sometime later the 8th king "dies" temporarily, and comes out of the abyss?

    And both of these events cause "worship" and "amazement" leading to the exact same judgment?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    You have the whitewash coming down only as a metaphor, a by product of events not occurring as the Watchtower claims. By saying the Watchtower is exposed in the first trumpet means the abyssing, is in my opinion placing the abyssing at that location without precedence.

    I understand the need to connect Rev 13 and the coming from the sea, and Rev 17 coming out of the abyss, I even thought that way once, but to me I have come to understand the death stroke has already occurred in the past, and the next event is the Watchtower coming down, then deep in the time of the end this current beast will go into the abyss then come out...

    It's the only way there are no paradoxes...
     
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    SingleCell

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    I'll go have to go back to the long post and one by one to identify those paradoxes.

    What about the death-stroke / abyss paradox whereby the "worship" and "amazement" produces the same judgment?

    IF the death-stroke is a past event, which group of people in history are not in the book of life because of "worshiping" the resurrected beast?

    [if i'm reading you right]

    Or are you saying Babylon received a death-stroke in ~2400 BCE and will be resurrected in the future as a modern Babylon?

    Have you heard of Tom Horn in your studies?
     
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    SingleCell

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    Actually I'm completely wrong; retract all of it.

    Trumpet #2 and Bowl #2 are too similar to separate out; and since Bowl #1 goes against those with the mark, Trumpet #1 can't be the initiation of the conclusion.



    C'est la vie!
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I don't see one, nor a direct connection. I see the beast in Rev 13 being worshiped, and those same people being amazed when it goes into the abyss and out.

    The founding of the world is when we were all chosen. Those of us that are part of the sacred secret in who the responsibilities to look over his courtyard, and those who were suppose to, but fall away. It's the whole trumpet vs bowls. The trumpets and bowls are to the brothers of Christ, the trumpets being those who will be refined by fire, and the bowls those who took that mark of Solomon.

    Rev 13:8 "And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered."

    Eph 1:4 "as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love."

    All the brothers of Christ and their enemies (the ones that fall, like Judas) were chosen in the first prophecy at Gen 3:15, including the solution, the women.

    The death stroke was to Satans throne at the Tower of Babel, and the modern throne of Satan was reborn in 325CE.
    I have not...
     
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    SingleCell

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    Which means the Catholic church or Papacy is the Wild Beast?

    Or Europe coupled up with the Catholic church (iron-clay | lion-bear-leopard)?

    And back on topic, does this mean the wild beast is also one of the churches?

    Specifically Thy·a·tiʹra which allows "Jezebel" in their midst?

    (assuming a timeline of churches)

    So BTG = the lion's mouth, and the "wild beast" is an amalgamation of Catholicism and European states?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    No, only the head, the lion, that Babylon riding the beast.

    Yes...

    Beasts are always spoken of as nations... Although the second beast shows us a form of worship, because it is the iron/clay separated out, Rome/Catholic.

    It would mean Babylon, the lion, riding the conglomeration of other nation states. Remember the Holy See is a nation...

    Here is my link to the Babel chronology HERE.

    But I also believe there are multiple fulfillment's of the beasts, HERE.

    Ultimately the deathstroke has to come before that beast comes against the constant feature in Rev 13, but at the same time the final battle between north and south occurs after the constant feature comes down in Dan 11, and in fact Dan 7 tells us the other beasts give their powers to the eighth king only 450 days before the new world. Therefore the only answer can be that Rev 13 and 17 are not the same event, although they are the same entity.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    It looks to me that Revelation 13 is a description of the Beast without a rider, and Revelation 17 clearly has a rider on it directing it where to go. Who is the rider, and when did she get on to ride?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The lion is Babylon...
     
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    SingleCell

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    I think Frank's question (and mine) would be "but how can the mouth of a lion" of the wild beast also be the "woman riding on the wild beast"?

    And when did the woman mount the beast?

    Presumably, since I think we all agree that the 7 heads are Egypt -> Anglo-America (basically), then did the woman mount the beast in 325 CE?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Gods people in the time of the end are said to go into a spiritual captivity to Babylon, in prophetic fulfillment of the Israel of old's captivity to Babylon.

    Rev 18:4 "And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

    So then it is Babylon that acts as the mouthpiece that comes against Gods people taking them captive.

    The little horn is part of the entity in Rev 13 for it is that entity that opens its mouth against Gods people;

    Dan 7:25 "He will speak words against the Most High,"

    Dan 7:8 "And look! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly."

    Dan 8:11 "It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature."

    This little horn is also part of the king of the north;

    Dan 11:30 "He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant."

    So back to Rev 13, the mouth is the lion, that mouth that opens against God's people.

    Rev 13:2 "and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth."

    Rev 13:6 "And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven."

    So therefore we know Babylon must exist and is part of the first beast of Rev 13, because that beast comes against Gods people and they go into captivity to Babylon at that point.

    Also keep in mind not only do we know Babylon is part of that first beast of Rev 13 at this point, we also know that the little horn is the lion as well, they are one in the same, the mouthpiece that come against God's people.

    Rev 13:7 "It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,"

    Gods people go into captivity to Babylon in the time of the end when Babylon opens its mouth to blasphemy God and his dwelling place, when Gods people defile his name in the world.

    Eze 20:9 "But I acted for the sake of my name so that it would not be profaned before the nations among whom they were living."

    Again we know Babylon the great is part of that first beast in Rev 13 because Rev 17 tells us it was her (again) who attacked them, just as mentioned in Rev 13;

    Rev 17:6 "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."


    The women is a city, or better said, a nation. All beasts are nations, and Babylon is just another one.

    Rev 18:10 "Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!"

    She is depicted as a women because she is a religious entity, just as the women in the first prophecy. (Gen 3:15) Yet this women is in defiance to Jehovah's women. And we all know what will happen to that women, she is destroyed, taken back and buried in the land of Shinar, the birthplace of the Tower of Babel, Babylon the Great!

    Zech 5:10,11 "Where are they taking the eʹphah container?” He replied: “To the land of Shiʹnar to build her a house; and when it is prepared, she will be deposited there in her proper place.”

    The answer to your question is, at this point in our discussion, the only thing that matters is the women started riding the beast in Rev 13 when it comes from the sea, before it opens it's mouth against Gods people sending them into captivity to Babylon.

    It should also be noted that it's not a large stretch to notice the beasts in Rev 13 match those in Dan 7, and it is more commonly then not held that the lion in Dan 7 represents Babylon. Therefore it's not a difficult step to conclude that since Babylon is mentioned alive in the time of the end then the lion in the first beast of Rev 13 could represent that city/nation state, Babylon the Great, just like the lion in Dan 7 representing Babylon.

    As of this very moment this is the seven heads I see, but don't hold me to this, as you know this is one of the most difficult understandings to pin down.

    Babel ~ Egypt ~ Assyria ~ Medo/Persia ~ Greece ~ Rome ~ Holy See

    {Deathstroke healed/Babel/Babylon/Holy See} Babel becomes the 1st and the 7th.

    (But understand I believe this cycle repeats itself again, and all of these nations have a modern fulfillment as well.)

    That is a more complex question, and may not be needed in our discussion here, but briefly the answer is yes, but she mounted the beast again in the Lateran Treaty of 1929. You see I believe the beasts of Dan 7 have had several fulfillments, it's just a map to each fulfillment, just like Dan 2 and the image, a map.

    Regardless, the answers you are looking for reside in the chronology, you must understand what event occurs before or after another before identifying the entities within. That is my suggestion, focus on placing the events in order first, he gives us all the day counts...
     
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    SingleCell

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    Agreed; this is something I'm fairly ignorant of (beyond the basics).

    I need to get Excel out, and chart out the chronology, to get these things straightened out :)

    As-is, I don't know enough to agree or disagree with your framework. It's interesting though!
     
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    SingleCell

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    Who here has used Google docs?

    Should we make a publicly editable spreadsheet for Revelation?

    We could group events by heading and scripture.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Women of note in the Bible usually represent covenants and the woman riding the beast is no different. In the first century the woman riding the beast of Revelation is the Apostate first New Covenant Saints that had prostituted themselves with the Catholic Church which quickly evolved from the first True Christian Church started by Jesus himself.

    The woman riding the beast of today is the Watchtower first New Covenant Saint imposter's. They started riding the beast when they agreed to publish articles promoting another organization other than the Kingdom of God and tricked myself and many others to do their dirty deed for them. Just like the imposter's that Paul and John spoke about in their contributions to the Word of God. But the Watchtower is just the daughter of the first woman, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has been "officially" riding the beast since 1964 when they were given the title "the Holy See". They are a permanent "observer", not a member and without voting rights.
    The Holy See is not a member of the United Nations (not having applied for membership) but was granted permanent observer state (i.e., non-member state) status on 6 April 1964. In that capacity, it has the right to attend all sessions of the United Nations General Assembly, the United Nations Security Council, and the United Nations Economic and Social Council to observe their work.[1] Accordingly, the Holy See has established permanent observer missions in New York and in Geneva and has been able to influence the decisions and recommendations of the United Nations Wikipedia retrieved from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See_and_the_United_Nations

    The Watchtower is already a part of Babylon the Great. They had enough time from January 1992 till they finally "disavowed" their position in the U.N. when they were "outed". Then, to prove their lack of repentance was steeled they wrote the letter to all the Congregations in late October, early November 2001 that they never joined the U.N., they just wanted a library card and everything else was made up by "opposer's". These opposer's, if they were members of the congregations were "murdered" spiritually by the Watchtower when they were dis-fellowshipped and torn from their families for having the temerity to question the almighty Watchtower. That fellows and ladies is the definition of UN-repentance.

    Just as he tells us in his Word the Bible, Jehovah God and Jesus gave them time to repent, but they "chose" not to.

    And I gave her time to repent (almost 10 years), but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality (instead she blames the infamous group of "opposer's"). Revelation 2:21 she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality*+ and to eat things sacrificed to idols (read and "place" copies of the Watchtower & Awakes with their scandalous propaganda included inside).
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    This is the point your chronology skews, because it is a personal interpretation. Now all your chronology revolves around that personal identifying moment in time...

    Not to sound mean or anything, but not allowing our own understanding to infiltrate scripture is a difficult thing to do, for everyone...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The only way I could do it was conceptualizing it, and good old fashion pen and paper.

    What I did was map out all the day counts, what starts when and what ends where. Determining each day counts ending is the best place to start, and then you can determine which other day counts end on that same day. Then once you have the map of the day counts then the entities explain themselves within, after knowing which event comes before or after another. I've used paint program since day one, so that's where all my graphs are created...lol Graphs are a good way to visualize it.

    Again, as I've mentioned before, a good place to start is Dan 12.
     
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    SingleCell

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    This is why I'm of the opinion that we'll only understand this post facto.

    I'm not sure I trust human's to circumvent their own personalities and preconceptions.

    But I'm with you that we should try regardless :)

    Going to make a Google doc, will share; we need multiple brains working with a simple cohesive ordering system.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I'm not so sure I agree, and here's the reason;

    All of these issues in scripture we are discussing are not needed for survival. Therefore if that is the case, they are their for very few, his prophets. Amos 3:7 tells us Jehovah wont do a thing until it's revealed to his prophets first, therefore since scripture is written to Christs brothers, and they were chosen and foresaw back in Gen 3:15 and the founding of the world, then the Bible was written so that it would be unsealed by a few individuals at a certain time in history. It wasn't written any simpler or more complex then for that to occur. Jehovah knew who and how the Bible would be uncovered in the future and wrote with those moments in mind.

    The problem is, you don't know what you don't know. It's like a city with all kinds of hills and mountains, when a group of people decided to explore each one and determine which was the tallest, they separated the people out so that a small group would explore each hill, and they would use smoke signals so they could communicate back to each other and describe what they see.

    Now as a climber starts heading up each hill he would describe what he sees in his journey up, until he reaches an impasse and stops. Now another climber comes along following his footsteps and footholds to overtake him and carry on the journey, describing what he sees all along the way, until finally one of their group reaches the top of the hill and communicates down to the others he sees the top, and exclaims their hill is the tallest in all the city.

    Well the problem is this same exact scenario is going on all throughout the city, with only one person from each group reaching each summit, while all the others in their party never reach the summit, but listen to the lead climber describe what he had seen.

    So then with each lead climber thinking their hill or mountain is the tallest in the city, you have every single one of them wrong, all except for one of course, but can this one verify to others that he clearly saw all other hills under his line of sight? No, not really, the only way any of the other climbers will ever see his view is to walk the steps and footholds this climber had taken. But who will, who will see past their own understandings in order to explore out the possibility there might be a higher mountain?

    I believe we all have levels of understanding in scripture, and very little of that is survival knowledge such as Christ Jesus was dead and resurrected. But it's my belief the prophets in the end will be conversing with angels on a regular basis and makes it much easier if they already have a grasp of much of what is going on ahead of time, therefore the level of knowledge of what is actually going on that is needed for just a few, or even two... Zech 3:7 "If you will walk in my ways and carry out your responsibilities before me, then you will serve as a judge in my house and take care of my courtyards; and I will give you free access among these who are standing here."

    But with that said, I think if all of a sudden, God sent down an altimeter, a new invention in our prophetic city and placed it on the highest mountain, proving that in fact this mountain was the tallest, others from the other groups of climbers will at that time be more inclined to walk the path the lead climber had walked in order to see the summit, but unfortunately it seems it would take an act of God.

    Again, you don't know what you don't know, so before the act of God the only way to know you haven't let your own understanding creep in is to climb every other climbers path, in order to determine which road is the right one, then maybe you will be one of those few Jehovah had in mind when he wrote the words we love so much...

    It's usually pretty clear, it's the path you haven't been able to discount yet...
     
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    SingleCell

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    I agree with the basics of the analogy as a way of understanding how the prophecies come into focus, but I would argue that there is no "one" who is correct in interpretation, beyond basics; there will be new and direct revelation from Jehovah.

    Take Daniel, who figured out the 70 years of punishment; it was only understood during the punishment, and it was only a small nugget that he understood. Isaiah is still largely a locked book.

    In other words, Daniel was given more encryption (the book of Daniel), not decryption.

    Is the New Scroll what we're waiting for beyond the basics of "this system is going to tank and make war with True Christians"?

    Agreed, this a true mechanic of information systems. Actually it's basically a description of the scientific method.

    But there is always the un-climbed path, meaning, we don't know what nobody but Jehovah knows.

    Thus-far in the Hebrew world history viewpoint, no human has decrypted any prophecy before it was happening.

    (that I can think of)

    It's always been direct revelation, or tiny nuggets, "enough to go by".

    Then those with faith receive direct revelation (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel for example)

    I *want* to believe we can figure it out though :)
     
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