The Tree of knowledge of Good and Bad...linked to the Tree of Life. The tree of knowledge of Good and Bad was a way of letting adam and eve know they depended on Jehovah to be instructed as to what truly is good and bad. Interesting the word "bad" means to make bad...that is,what Jehovah has given you is Good... but if not instructed properly and you dont learn from Jehovah and adopt His values as your own,values that make Good go bad will be the outcome. “Good†will be lost. Isn't this exactly what happened ? Interesting it was a fruit tree bearing fruit that was the tree of knowledge. The right kind of knowledge sustains and nourishes the body,just like food. It was highly symbolic. Jehovah knew what Good was. He said at the end of creating on earth,including humans: “It is very "Good" "..because he knew the values required to give others "good" stemming from Love..which is the embodiment of all things good having no corruption. Adam and Eve did not know Good. They HAD good given to them,but didnt know why or how to keep it that way without Jehovah instructing them. To rebel against Jehovah and choose to decide AND reject Jehovah's values and education leads to corruption of "Good" via bad. Good that they were given would be lost. One point satan made was right,their goal was to be “like Godâ€..but HOW to be like God was the lie..and this lie would not have worked on the experienced Adam,only Eve. When they had finally learnt "good and bad" and proven loyal to it in some way,the reward for that is eternal life. Their education from Jehovah at some point would have tried to see if they had learnt enough to see important issues...and this they would have been able to do. The account doesnt say if they knew if the tree existed,but Jehovah voiced his concerns of them knowing of it after they sinned...what is implied is that they didnt know of it. But the fact that it was there was what Jehovah held out to all perfect people who showed in some way,they had learnt from Jehovah what was good and bad. As they were,they would live for a long time because they were sinless,but this is not “everlasting lifeâ€. Just because you are without sin doesnt mean you are worthy of “everlasting lifeâ€..if you have not proved are loyal to the values which your wonderful life stems from. Jehovah has shown many times that when someone shows to a certain degree..a standard He sets... they have shown their heart is “dedicated†to him via love,He makes a covenant based on Love with them and further blessings happen. This would have been no different with Adam and Eve. Their education would have reached a point where they would have shown in some way that they understood what Jehovah had done for them and responded in a way that showed they Loved their Father and what He had done for them...BUT more importantly,the values behind His amasing Gift and how they would be loyal to those values,which come from Him. If they remained loyal to “goodâ€,this would show they are worthy of what they had been given because they where loyal to “good†and appreciated the person behind the “good†they had. Just because you are perfect,doent mean you will appreciate what you are given. Look at satan and the good he was given. Yet he rejected that. Its a very crude example,but when a child is young and they receive many things from their parents,at some point they have to learn where these come from. You have to earn money,get a job. And a good parent educates a child so that they can earn a living for themselves. Jehovah gave them many things..but when they had lived long enough,they would have had to learn from Jehovah that all the good things they have was from Love and thus Good. Love is the currency of a good life. The more they applied this currency,the more of Loves blessings they could have. As Jehovah had said the Israelites “I am the one teaching you to benefit yourselves†The more adam and eve and Israelites applied Jehovahs “Goodâ€... the more “blessing of Good†or “fruitage of Good†or “Loves fruitage†they could bring into their lives. They “benefited themselves “ Thats the Joy Jehovah held out for His children. That they would “grow up†in Love and have the same happiness Jehovah had in His own personal life via Love. They could have the same Joys as their Father...and for the same reasons if they allowed themselves to choose “good†as their Father had. It could only be theirs if they Knew good and bad as Jehovah had explained to them. Once they understood that,then they could be given a guarantee of living forever via love...because “good and bad†is part of knowing Love. Jehovah would form a covenant of Love with them since they had shown in some way,they had proven loyal to Jehovah's values. In some way they had to show they understood this and thus NOT allow themselves to be corrupted by “badâ€. They would have to make stand for “good†for Jehovah to know they really did understand Love. The evident demonstration of the covenant between His perfect children who proved in some way loyalty to good and bad...was being able to eat from the Tree of Life. As Jehovah lives forever in “Goodâ€,so would they. Maybe this is why Jehovah allowed satan to deceive eve to see what Adam would do. He had been alive a lot longer than Eve at this stage and had been educated by Jehovah for good and bad during this time. Would he show he would be loyal to Jehovah though his beautiful wife had been deceived into wrongdoing and he could possibly lose her ? Adam showed he would not be loyal to Jehovah or Love. The fruit may have not been on the tree when eve took it to adam,but the issue was the same. Would he recognise that Good came from Jehovah via rejecting the fruit from his wife ? Adam would have known Eve was deceived. She told him what had happened. He would have known how long it took him to learn what Jehovahs education was trying to teach her. BUT,he KNEW what was “badâ€. He knew his life was “good†because of his education. So the basis of his wonderful life had to be defended. He could not allow “bad†to corrupt the “good†his Father had given him. Did he love the reasons for his “good†life ? He had “goodâ€,but didnt appreciate it...and the person it came from. His Father was loyal to “good†and he had to show that he would be a loyal son for the same reason his Father was loyal to “goodâ€. Adam rejected the “good†of being in his Fathers image...and thus from that day,he died from the corruption he allowed into his life. Because he CHOSE to allow within himself something he knew was wrong and not in harmony with what Jehovah had put within him,he showed he would not be loyal to Love/Good. He chose the opposite and because of this,allowed corruption into himself. He wanted /chose “bad†? Then he must reap the consequences...and that was corruption in the form of death. This would have been a supreme test for adam. As Eve told him what had happened and she offered the fruit to him,in her hand was a symbol of why both of them had such wonderful lives. The tree symbolised why eve was such a wonderful complement and both were beautiful gifts from Jehovah to each other. But loyalty to Jehovah meant adam had to reject Eve's offer because “good†can only come from being loyal to Jehovah's values..and adam knew that ! What Eve offered was because she was deceived as to what was good. But Adam knew it was truly bad to eat the fruit. As she offered the fruit in her hand,the issue was clear. She was a manifestation of Jehovahs “Good†as he himself was. But in her hand was a symbol of needing to be dependant on Jehovah for “good†to continue... of needing to remain Holy/sinless and Good. Would he choose to remain loyal to Good and STAY Holy ? Adam eating the fruit was a deliberate sin ! Because of his rejecting Jehovah and not staying Holy by choice,not only was he not fit to eat from the “Tree of Lifeâ€,he was now unfit to even live in the Garden of Eden...an extention of the Most Holy in Heaven. Only “good†and purity can remain in the Most Holy. This is why cherubs were posted at the entrance to Eden. Not just to stop Adam from finding the tree of life,but stop any sin (someone who deliberately allowed themselves to be corrupted by “badâ€)being allowed to enter Eden because it was a Holy place Jehovah had created for “good†to reside. Adam showed he had not learnt this lesson despite everything Jehovah had given him..AND the instruction Jehovah gave him had not taken root in his heart. He chose to reject and show contempt for the standards that Jehovah has that enabled Adam to have so much “good†in his life. Living forever via Love is the ultimate gift Jehovah could give any of His children. But it could only happen if they listened to Jehovahs education and proved in some way they would be loyal to Him and Love.. THEN they have shown they know what Love really is and made it their own. Now the fruit of the tree of life was theirs to eat from..another symbol that understanding Love makes living forever worth living. Love nourishes your life and makes it grow in beauty ! Once they had shown they had learnt the lessons of the “tree of knowledge of Good and bad†,then they had the hope of eating from the Tree of Life. A guarantee of an eternal life of Love which they would be loyal to,since in some way,they had proved they would be loyal to Love and the Author of Love. If they had shown appreciation for the Love they had already been shown and the reasons for it,then Jehovah would extend even more love to them,offering them the gift of enjoying Love and Good forever as a covenant between a Father and His loyal children. That is the ultimate “Good†! It is “Very Good†!!
reading genisis first we see jehovah give man dominion over the creatures and he tells man to reproduce and subdue the land, that is to say basically expand your liveing quarters to all the earth... jehovah left onley one requirment and that was do not take upon yourself to choose what is good and what is bad... thats the job of almighty god... unfortuneatly adam placed his wifes suggestion above jehovahs command! and this symbolized takeing the word of man above jehovahs word! both adam and eve were perfect at the time so their was no excuse to hold out to jehovah. they were not uninformed,nor to sick mentally or physically to obey...it was truely an act of conscious rebellion on adams part although eve was deceived! adam was given a fair, honest choice to obey god or obey his own wants! this act said loudly jehovah I value myself and my desisions above yours! naturaly god was quite angry at this...now I am geting of subject one moment on a word called re beliel onos...(rebelion) legend says that before the age of man the covering (cherub) had charge over earth and when adam was created the cherub was told to serve adam therfore the cherub became jealous and angry and felt he should receive mans worship...the word rebelion means to give belial(devil) onus (honor) again.... so what this really boils down to, was adam saying jehovah you are wrong and I am chooseing to give beliel my dominion over this earth! is it any wonder that jehovah god was angry and kicked man out of paradise? but did jehovah not know all along what was to happen? of course he did but thats a story for another day...
Hi All: Perhaps someone would like to show me “scripturally†how the idea of Adam and Eve being made absolutely “perfect†comes from in the Bible. Each time I read the creation account I read about their creation and later Jehovah made the expression that this part of his creation, like the others was “goodâ€. I have attached the strongs definition of this word and its roots to this comment for your viewing. _____Strongs_____ H2896 towb tobe from H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; used likewise as a noun, both in the masculine and the feminine, the singular and the plural (good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women), also as an adverb (well). The word “perfect†does not come up in the bible until the 6th chapter of Genesis in it’s description of Noah. It is the Hebrew word tamiym which more literally means flawless, or without blemish. Since Noah was a son of Adam he was of course imperfect in relation to sin. What I think is meant by this scripture is that Noah’s DNA was not blemished by the uncontrolled and wanton mating between the angels who left their proper dwelling place and human women. Apparently only Noah was spared of this blemish. Perhaps not even his wife or children escaped this adulterating of the flesh of mankind by the angels. H8549 tamiym taw-meem' from H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth. KJV: without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole. So where does this idea come from? I don’t know. That’s what I would like someone else who espoused this idea to show me. And if this cannot be done, please leave this idea behind and realize that Adam and Eve were created exactly for the purpose that they fulfilled. Jehovah knew that when they were created by him that they would sin, because they were created with that in mind from the beginning. Why could be handled on a different topic at another time. Re-read the topic on this that I posted. This is laid our in a very logical manner using the Bible and your brain and hopefully the Holy Spirit as a guide. I will agree that creation is perfect in the sense that it will accomplish exactly what Jehovah wishes to be accomplished by it’s creation but each specific “creation†is not perfect specifically to itself. JD, or JIG, this is not specifically asked of YOU, but anyone who has this predisposed idea that Adam and Eve were created "perfect" and therefore could not sin unless it was it absolute defiance of God and therefore God should never allow them to be redeemed. I don't see it and would like someone to scripturally explain it to me, if that is possible. It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it holds up under scrutiny. frank
dear sir, I have to go with what you said jehovah created adam and eve to do his perfect plan and That plan included exactly what happened because jehovah had in mind teaching all creation the folly of sin, the bible calles jesus the lamb slain since the foundation of the world,no one can explain jehovahs purposes but he knows exactly what he is doing,and who knows when this thing has played out. jehovah could speak the word and all efects sin had would be no more! but the leason would be remembered..
Hi Frank, Some interesting points. But you cant have Jah creating them to sin and NOT HAVE the opposite also. Why would he create them without sin...to sin. That just doesnt make sense. If perfect is without blemish,to sin is to have a blemish. What you are saying is that Jah made them to fall short and sin..thus to die because they were flawed so as to fall short and sin. Jehovah is without flaw. Adam came from someone flawless and without sin. From their beginning,they were in Gods image. Without flaw and not dying. They could have stayed that way if they acted in harmony with their education. When they sined something happened. They changed. They were once without sin and a flaw..to now having one. thats why they were kicked out of Eden. They now had a DELIBERATE flaw that they had allowed to happen. they chose it. In adams case,it was a choice to do something he KNEW was wrong...to go against his education. We are not robots...choice can be abused. As for Noah,those who came from adam were with a flaw and dying. Those who came from the demons were the nephalim. They were obvious via their strength and other flaws . So you cant say Noahs family had demon genes..it was only the nephalim that had that and the bible doesnt say his family were nephalim. The line of david had to come through noah. Jehovah would not allow the messiahs line to come though any people who were nephalim...offspring who were from the demons. Noah was perfect in that "he did just so". He did not fall short of Jehovahs instructions for him. He carried out his instructions "without flaw". If adam was now a flawed person,his son Noah could not now be without flaw. If this is the case,then Jehovah would have allowed him back into Eden. Noah died. If he was perfect,he would not have died. Adam died which was not his original hope. That changed. Noah died because he was Adams son and inherited the same curse His father chose because he allowed himself to be corrupted. If Noah was perfect in the sense you imply,then he would be without sin and be still alive today. Its only those who sin and carry the sin gene of adam are the ones who die.
yes sir, it is quite a quandry! jehovah god knowing adam would sin still made him,I cant beleive for a moment jehovah did not know specialy when the bible says that from the start jehovah knows the end. Its far beyond me to know why, and aparently cain from his writeings was not very happy with it, in his writeings(book of cain) apochrapha he acused god of being unjust for createing beings that he knew would sin.. now jehovah is god if he choses to make a man that he knows will sin,I have no right to talk back the clay saying to the potter why did you make me this way..The problem here is that man thinks way to highly of himself ,their is many more higher lifeforms than their are men namely the heavenly hosts,, for all we know the race of men and earth was created as a stage to teach the higher lifeforms .we as men asume that because we are created in gods image that we bare all the quilitys of god but in lesser amounts..Jehovah has good reason for it all and he did not fully disclose those reasons.because #1 we dont need to know! thats what its all about! puting the matters that belong to god in gods hands and willingly,and with a good atitude just obey! I am an imperfect man but How I wish I could meet up with god anytime I wanted and ask him what to do and be able to hear his answer.how nice that would be...
Hi JD: I think you need to slow down and read my comment more slowly. I don't mean that in a mean way, but I never said that Noah was "created" without flaw. Read my comment again and you will see that. What I said is the word for perfect is first used in the Bible in mentioning Noah, not because he was created so because that would be a foolish conclusion even for someone as dense as me. So if Noah was not created "perfect", "without flaw" then how was he "perfect". I don't know for sure but the fact that the demon angels came down to earth and had sex with all the women that they wanted to (Genesis 6:2), and do you get the impression they would leave any undefiled and because of the fact that it is women who birth all the children, then Noah had to be born of a woman who's DNA was not previously made imperfect by the demon sexual olympics, as it were. If you or anyone else has a better reason why Noah would be termed perfect, have at it. In that verse in Genesis 6:9 it literally reads "Noah, a righteous man, flawless he became in generations of him." Part of your reply about Noah did make sense in that Noah "did just so", and I can appreciate that but that in itself would not make him perfect or flawless " in generations of him". But that is not the main point as to why I mention that the word perfect is not used until Genesis 6:9. It is because that just shows that Jehovah regarded his creation thus far up to the 6th day as "good" not "perfect". If he had considered it "perfect" he would have used that Hebrew word, he would have said "it is perfect", but he did not, on purpose. In regards to why Jehovah could make Adam and Eve "without sin" if he had foreknowledge that they would sin, I would ask the question, how would Jehovah make them "with sin"? We are born in sin because we inherit it from our original parents. Adam and Eve did not inherit sin from Jehovah therefore they were made "without sin", even though he knew they would sin. Did you read the topic I posted on whether Jehovah knew if Adam would sin? If not, please read it, as it will explain a lot, and in much more detail. How old do you think Eve was when she was beguiled by Satan? How old was Satan at the time? We can estimate Satan's life at the very least in the ten's of thousands of years to as many as hundreds of millions of years, take your pick. Eve was absolutely no match for Satan as he was the "craftiest of all the field life" Genesis 3:1 and she was the most inexperienced. If we look at the life of Jesus on Earth, who was the last Adam, he started collecting the members of his wife at just over 30 years old (with his selection of the Apostles (with the exception of Judas, who he knew was a "diablos" form the beginning John 6:64,70), after his baptism. Since he resembles Adam in many, if not all ways, it is not an absurdity to assume that Adam was about 30 years old when he recieived Eve. And since Jesus was 33.5 when he died to ransom Adam, I will assume that Adam was probably around 33.5 years old when he "sinned". If I am correct, Eve was about 3.5 years old, with little or no practical experience. She was a baby in a women's body, clearly no match for "the god of this system of things". Adam is another story. He knew that he was sinning, and chose to do so anyway. In the scenario painted above Adam would have been 30 years old when he first saw the "bone of his bone, and the flesh of his flesh", his wife Eve. He had spent his entire yet young life all alone in a world filled with animals that he was intimately enough acquainted with to provide each one with an appropriate name, all paired off and having little ones perhaps. Finally after all these years of "loneliness" not only does he meet "a women" but he meets his absolute soul mate, literally a female clone of himself. If any two people were more closely matched, show me them. He had been without a "helper" or "compliment" to himself but now that gaping hole in himself was filled. Not just filled but perfectly matched. Can you imagine the love and attachment they both must have felt for each other. So when Eve sinned and later approached Adam to show him that not only did she not die for touching the fruit, but she was still alive after eating it. Can you imagine the dichotomy of emotion that now rushes over him just 3.5 years from the day that he met this perfect compliment and helper, this no doubt beautiful female. I am not writing this to excuse Adam's actions as he also violated this command, the only one they had from their loving Creator, but I am mentioning it for you and others to think about, when you consider just how could he have done such a thing? Yes, he should have trusted in Jehovah and like Abraham, he should have known that his Father could rectify the situation without him having to sin, but he was oh so young, and apparently hopelessly in Love. Not to mention the fact that although a sinful human, Abraham had over three and possibly four times the life experience as Adam, and a written or oral record of the entire history of mankinds folly including Adam's to draw from. I possit that Jehovah knew that this is how it would play out, because Jehovah knows everything including the end from the beginning. The idea that Jehovah could choose not to know is one of the most lame proposals I have every heard, and yet I believed it for about 30 years myself. Not necessarily because it is a good theory but because it fit the JW way of thinking and I was a JW. This is similar to when I was a young Catholic boy playing in the school yard and another of my catholic buddies would ask, do you think that God is so powerful that he could create a rock that even he couldn't lift? Him choosing not to know is about as reasonable as that in my mind. You may disagree, and I respect that. But you asked me to explain and that is what I am doing. your brother in Christ, frank
I just wanted to say thank you for that beautiful depiction of Adam and Eve, and his immense love for her. Did they actually know what a human day was, for him to actually grasp the concept that she was still alive? I also believe that Noah being "perfect" meant that he was undefiled or tainted with Nephilim DNA and that possibly his wife and the wives of his sons were the best of the bunch, as this can be seen after the flood by the faulty genetics in some of the human species, hence why Jehovah had his people annihilate the Rephaim 1 Chr 20:6-7; 2 Sam 21:20 and Num 32:33; Deut 3:10-11 and Josh 12:6 Were Adam and Eve perfect? It's a difficult one but after a long consideration I think they were. My son has often asked " how do you get imperfection from perfection? and it use to baffle me. Why were these creatures malfunctioning satan, Adam & Eve? yet their creator is love and perfection. The only thought I could come up with is based upon Jehovahs qualities, and how we are made in his image. One of the traits Jehovahs has shown is Jealousy, but he uses this in a protective manner and in a balanced and just way. Satan had probably never had this emotion evoked before human beings had been created, but allowed that feeling to be drawn out and he was enticed by the thought of being worshiped. Just as the bible says at James 1:14,15..But each person is tempted, when he is drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then when the lust is conceived it gives birth to sin and when sin is accomplished it brings forth death. This is the knock on effect, with Eve now questioning what was Jehovah really holding back? "could I possibly be like God"? she too was enticed by her own desire, with Adam joining in the rebellion also. I believe Jehovah knew the possibility was there for man to sin, but if and when was left to play out in it's own time. I personally think it would be quite sadistic to create beings destined to fail, then persecute your one and only begotten son to prove that he was right all along. From my perception of a loving God Jehovah desires nobody to die but to all repent, he is holding back the four winds in hope to spare as many lives as possible, and will even resurrect the good and the bad during Christ's thousand year reign, this does not to me sound like a God who created the first human pair in his image which was never a "sinful state" with a pre-destined disposition from the beginning. Blessings Shikinah
hello shikinah! nice to see you posting, its so confuseing trying to figure out why jehovah does what he does! So Here is what I did! I stoped trying to figure out why and I just do what he wrote and says without asking Why like Im a 4 year old kid..it works out better for me! I dont want anymore fruit off that tree of good and evil the last piece made me feel rather sick! as for the tree of life ,I look to jesus to dispense to me at his will that fruit, each day becomes one day closer to life rather than concentrateing on how old Im geting. that about it.
Hello JIG, I agree I too have stopped trying to figure out the deep things of God. We only have to look at the signs around us and the strange events unfolding to know that the bible is Gods word. I believe everything that we need to know will be revealed at the appropriate time. It's a great post though as it did help me see the event which happened in Eden from the perspective of the three sinners. Shikinah
Agreed. My faith is boiling down to: justice, righteousness, love, faith I will probably always be a practicing JW at this point (I've become very close to some of the bros/sis), but there is still a misty fog blocking reality, and the 'organization' is simply the vessel I find the most suitable to carrying me through that fog at the present time. I look forward to the day when the WT collapses and we can speak frankly to our brothers and sisters.
So true, I have returned to meetings, and like you I have become very close to certain brothers and sisters especially those who are sick, the elderly and those just clinging on for life. It's difficult to bite your tongue and sometimes I just nod my head and stare in amazement at how deluded some are. I also look forward to the collapse, despite the risk of being carted off and arrested, I would prefer to worship underground at least we can speak without fear of being labelled a "wicked apostate". John 4:24: [TABLE="class: mainbk, width: 100%, align: center"] [TR] [TD="class: bluebk3, width: 98%, bgcolor: #FFFEFD"][TABLE="width: 100%"] [TR] [TD="width: 200"][TABLE="width: 124"] [TR] [TD][TABLE="width: 225"] [TR] [TD="class: crossref, align: justify"]Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
Haveing been raised in the kingdomhall and baptised,I learned about jehovah,and jesus and the importance of staying in the written word, no matter were you worship jehovah his word stays his word. I depend on jehovah for my every spirtual heartbeat.I truely have come to despise this old system,but at the same time I live within its laws and just wait it out.I look forward very much to sheding this old earthly body.I know I will wake up without any evil to opress me,and I can finally walk the earth without my sword drawn and 600 lbs of spirtual armor! it will be blessedly wonderfull to not have a tree of good and bad,but instead onley jesus as the true tree of life. I so much want the real uncut truth! and how wonderfull it will be when we all have the truth without maybe this or maybe that..how wonderfull when racial hatred is gone,and religeious seperations are ancient history!yes I just want it to be. but its sure going to take some geting used too!
Well said JIG. Side question: do you need a computer? I recall you mention typing this on a phone ... and I have a spare PC if you would like it?
I must be going senile because I just read what I wrote and have no recollection of writing it ahhhhh! but first I type on an android because I have to see the keyboard and it makes it ez. but what this whole thing in eden boils down to .. is will you take Jesus(the tree of life) as your king and agree to do what he says... or while you be your own king( tree of good and bad) and choose what you believe is right or wrong. if you choose your own way the holy spirit that spirit from god that keeps you alive can not abide in you. because god gave you free will! if somehow you could do every single thing right you would indeed live forever. but we can not! not Evan a man created without sin could! and by the way Adam was created perfect but in order to stay perfect you have to practice obeideiance unfortunately man while have free will forever but the penalty for sin no longer is death! because of Jesus all we have to do now is ask forgiveness and show repentance . we don't just believe in Jesus we act out that belief. but let me tell you something! if their turns out to be a literal tree of good and bad in the new world. you will find me close by it with a 10 billion volt cattle prod! and I promise I will prod you well if you go near it!