Brother, what you are missing is there are two comings against Gods people. Let me show you; Dan 12:11; “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days." This scripture is speaking of two separate events separated by 1290 days. First in 66 CE the constant feature was removed in Jerusalem when Eliezar ben Hanania, the temple clerk, stopped the sacrifices for the Romans and Emperor. Then 1290 days later Rome entered the temple and destroyed it in 70CE. The same thing will happen at the end. The constant feature will be removed which is the WTS, then 1290 days later the 8th king will come against Jesus's brothers after he is enthroned. That is what sparks Armageddon. Rev 11:7 is speaking of the moment at the end of the 1260 days, not the beginning when the constant feature is removed. Rev 13:7 is speaking of the beginning of the 1290 days. 1290 is just 30 days after the 42 months end, and is the moment the disgusting thing is placed.
Revelation 13:14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived As can be seen it does refer to the beast itself as the one that had the sword-stroke. That’s because even thou Rev 13:3 said it came upon one of its heads, it is the head that is actively operating at the time that the beast as a whole is. What ever happens to the head happens to the beast itself. That sword-stroke causes the beast to appear as thou slaughtered to death and it can also be seen that the beast revived. ________________________________________ (Revelation 13:7) And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, “It†is the beast that revived. (Revelation 11:7) And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. Here in chapter 11 it refers to a beast that ascends out of the abyss but there is no other reference in this chapter that tells you about this beast. I am sure you would agree that this would mean that you would have to go to other chapters to understand more details about this beast. (Revelation 17:8) The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascendout of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. Here it is clear that this beast comes out of the abyss, so with that it would be reasonable to say, that is the beast that chapter 11 is referring to. If that is the case, then based on what is in the blue in the above, then it would be rasonable to say that the beast that comes out of the abyss is the one that was revived. Also note that 17:8 says: “And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.†And chapter 13 says: “and all the earth followedthe wild beastwith admiration. And they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?†[SUP]8[/SUP] And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who wasslaughtered, from the founding of the world.†So just as the red above connects the two, so do the blue and the brown. (Revelation 19:20) And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur. This wild beast is the one that got revived, and he comes to his end by being hurled into the fiery lake. Question for you Josh, how will the beast that comes out of the abyss, “go off into destruction�
It may be that you've misunderstood me a little, or maybe not. I believe the identity of the beast in Rev 13 is the same identity as the beast in Rev 17. So to use what I believe is the modern fulfillment, only to make it more clear, I believe the beast in Rev 13 is the UN and I also believe the beast in Rev 17 is the UN. What I disagree with is the two events being the same moment. I believe the chronology shows that these are two separate events. Number one, the beast in Rev 13 did not come to life until at least after Rome. We know this from Dan 7. So therefore there is no way the theory that each head has guided the beast in its time. This beast in Rev 13 came to be at a moment sometime in the time of the fourth beast of Dan 7. Therefore it does not just represent a succession of ruling powers, but a new unique form of government. The beast in Rev 13 is speaking of that beast coming against Gods people for 42 months, however when the fourth beast is killed in Dan 7:11 the rullership of the 8th king will only last 450 days. This, and this alone make it impossible that the beast in Rev 13 could be the 8th king at that moment because it comes against Gods people for 1260 days. You still misunderstand Dan 12:11, there are 1290 days between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing placed. You are grouping every instance of Gods people being war'd upon as the same instance. There is the fist moment when the constant feature is removed when Jerusalem was surrounded, then 1290 days later they are killed when Rome entered the city. Rev 13:7 and Rev 11:7 are speaking of two different time periods in the end. I know it's easy to imagine that the death stroke in Rev 13 is the same as the abyssing of Rev 17 are the same event, I even thought it was the case at one time, even Robert believes so, Ive read every word Robert has written, but through chronology I have discovered that it is impossible given the chronology of Daniel. Dan 7:11 is the moment the eighth king takes over, and it will only survive for 450 days. Answer: It is the stone cut out with out hands in Dan 2 that will destroy the eighth king, that being the kingdom ruled by Christ...
At what point does the stone cause the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] king/wild beast to go off into destruction? Who throws the wild beast and the false prophet into the fiery lake? At what point does this occur?
75 days after Jesus is enthroned. 45 days after the disgusting thing is placed. 450 days after the eighth king comes to life.
This is not an clear answer. Please clairfy your answer. At what point does the stone cause the 8th king/wild beast to go off into destruction? Who throws the wild beast and the false prophet into the fiery lake? At what point does this occur? Do you agree that any action of destruction that takes place by Jesus is at/during Armageddon?
Yes, and I know what your getting at, because it doesn't matter. Given the fact that in my chronology both identities of Rev 13 and 17 are the same, the scripture at Rev 19:20 still applies. So to preempt you, Rev 19:20 applies to both of our chronology because it only needs the wild beast to be alive at that time after coming out of the abyss. We both agree that the beasts from both 13 and 17 are the same identity, what we disagree on is the two events being the same, however we both agree that being hurled into the lake of fire by Jesus occurs after it's coming out of the abyss and at Armageddon...
Hi Joshua: I have been sitting here quietly, just taking in your discussion with Anthony and up until now I have kept my opinion to myself, but I am forced to ask that you educate me on a few things that I have noticed from Revelation 13 and 17 that don't seem to sink up with your chronology of things. Here goes... first off you say that both chapters identify the beast as the same entity and in about the same time frame. How can this be when clearly in Revelation 13 the beast is absent a rider but in 17 that rider is a central character in the vision? Another question I have is from Revelation 13:5 it says that the beast "is given authority to do what it wills" for 42 months. 1. Who gives the beast authority? and why does it need to be given authority when Satan through the preceding Kings has exercised authority without needing to be given authority. This does not make sense to me in this scenario. Also, you assume that the 42 months mentioned in Rev 13 is concurrent with the 450 days that the beast will be in power before the coming of God's Kingdom, is that correct? Nowhere is scripture does it say this, but you assume that the chronology is simple to see. Another perplexity that I have is that you feel that the great signs and wonders that are done in the site of mankind and in the site of the beast was the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. That is almost 70 years ago. How does that cause through fear for mankind to abandon God and give their full allegience to the wild beast and/or it's image now in our time. Most people that were alive during that horrible time are dead and gone already and most kids would not be able to point out Japan on a map let alone Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So, when was the beast given the authority for 42 months to do "what it willed", in 1945 or will that be at present when they attack the Watchtower like you have presented in other writings? Does Revelation give us such a wide view of time from the 1940's till 2020 something? Why 42 months? What is the relevance of 42 months in scripture? Re 17:10, 11 " And they are seven kings. *Five fall, *one is, the other came not as yet; and whenever he may be coming, he must remain briefly. And the wild beast which was, and is not, it' also is the eighth, and is out from among the seven, and is going away into destruction." These couple scriptures offers some problems of their own...The "one is" is number 6, and the one who "is not" is not the seventh king, no, but is said that it will be the eighth which goes off into destruction. so, this set of scriptures mentions 7 kings but only describes kings 1-6 and 8. Why so? I have more questions, but that will do for now, I don't want to confuse you and/or others that are also reading this. But I am eager for you, or Anthony or anyone else to answer these questions if you can. frank
Frank, [SUP]9[/SUP] “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: [SUP]10[/SUP] And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. [SUP]11[/SUP] And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth king, but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction. 5 + 1+ the other + the beast itself = 8 And yes the rider is mentioned in 17 and not 13 but also it can be said that the 42 months and the mark, etc are mentioned in 13 but not 17. How details were revealed to John, I don’t know, but whatever was shown him gives certain details of information and certain details of information and together it’s complete. The other stuff you mentioned… that’s Josh’s tangled web. Josh, The prophecies found in Genesis-Malachi all have to be fulfilled. The prophecies found in Matthew-Revelation all have to be fulfilled. Prophecies found in Genesis-Malachi that have never been fulfilled to date, still have to take place. Prophecies found in Matthew-Revelation that have never been fulfilled to date, still have to take place. Prophecies found in Genesis-Malachi and Matthew-Revelation that have already had a fulfillment to not all have to have another fulfillment. Example: [SUP]15[/SUP] “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) [SUP]16[/SUP] then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. [SUP]17[/SUP] Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; [SUP]18[/SUP] and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. [SUP]19[/SUP] Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! [SUP]20[/SUP] Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; [SUP]2[/SUP] But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. We see that a trampling of the holy city by the nations will occur in the future and we can liken it to the disgusting thing destroying the holy place in 70 c.e, but there is nothing to say that in the fulfillment of Rev 11:2 that there will be a fleeing to the mountains. If you claim that the 1,290 days mentioned in Daniel had a fulfillment in the past that does not mean that they have to be factored in again to a future fulfillment. The following was said for a reason: as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,)
Hi John: I guess one of my main questions is/was that if Satan is the "god of this system of things" then why does he have to be given authority for 42 months to have his beast "do it's will" or trample on the Temple for 42 months. He's already in charge and has been given that authority already, why does these scriptures say that he recieves authority for 42 months that he already has. It doesn't make any sense in your context. frank
Satan (the dragon) does already have power and authority. It is the beast that has to be given it. Let’s put the bible aside… let’s just think about the UN at present. We have those that are supporters of the UN would like to see it in a bigger role. We have those who are against the UN that would never like to see it in a bigger role and even think that it is to big now as it is and think that it shouldn’t even exist. In any case, for it to ever have a bigger role it would have to be given that authority to do so. Another thing to think about is that the 42 month authority is really set by Jehovah and Jesus.
Frank, This is an example of how Jehovah and Jesus are behind the set time of it being 42 months. Josh, How long do you think it took to destroy the temple in 70 CE? I know you say that in 66 CE that the constant feature was removed but is there anything to say that Jerusalem was being trampled on during that time? How do you compare/fit Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5, etc…into 66 CE-70CE? SingleCell said it best here: The first part is the thought that I was trying to say to you Frank when I said: The second part with mentioning Joel is good to compare and show about the time Rev 11:2.
It doesn't matter, the moment you need to know is when the disgusting thing stood in a holy place, how long it took after that isn't the point of Dan 12:11. Yes, it is the time that the city was surrounded, and this correlates to Rev 11:2; "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months." It is the courtyard that is encircled for 42 months/Constant feature removed, and 1290 days later the disgusting thing enters the temple after it has been restored to kill Jesus brothers, to attempt to cast their cords away. (Following dates are only the next moment in the stream of time these events can take place.) {2300 Starts} Watchtower News Reports: Sept 9th, 2018; Rosh Hashanah | {965 Days Pass} | {1260, 1290, 1335 Starts} Watchtower Goes Down: May 1st, 2021 | {777 Days Pass} | {1742nd Day} Call to Rebuild Jerusalem: June 17th, 2023 | {108 Days Pass} | {1850th Day} Anglo-America Collapses: Sept 29th-6th, 2023; Sukkot | {375 Days Pass} | {1260 Ends} Jesus Enthroned: Oct 12th, 2024; Yom Kippur | {30 Days Pass} | {1290 Ends} Disgusting Thing Placed: Nov 11th, 2024 | {45 Days Pass} | {2300[SUP]th[/SUP], 1335[SUP]th [/SUP]Day} New World: Dec 26th, 2024; Hanukkah
Actually that is not the case at all. The lion in Rev 13 is Babylon. It's identity has never changed. It's the head of gold in Dan 2, the lion Dan 4, and Babylon in Rev 17. The difference being that in Rev 13 Babylon is still at peace with the beast, it's not till Rev 17 that the lion/Babylon is turned on. I've never assumed chronology in prophecy was easy. Dan 7:11 tells us the other beasts rullerships were taken away when the eighth king comes to life, and they were allowed to live another 450 days, that means until the end of the 1335 days and the first day of the new world. The eighth king along with all other nations will end 450 days after the eighth king takes over. Determining when the 42 months end and begin must be taken from the chronology of the 1260, 1290, 1335, 2300 days in Daniel... Scripture gives us the starting and stopping points for these days. I have written about it in the first few pages of my book. I mean, I could go into that deeper but it's not really the subject here. Anglo-America along with all other members and non-members of the UN run to the security council when ever there is any event in the world. One only needs to look at MH17 and the rushed meeting at the UN. The world governments are forced to abide by the councils rulings or pay the price, and one day that will spread to all mankind individually once that beast becomes the 8th king. The 42 months have not begun yet. That is when the WTS is shut down. Revelation gives us a time frame from Adam to the end of the 1000 year reign, just read Rev 12... Dan 11 speaks of WWI and WWII, and as well so does Dan 8 and 7. All scripture discusses all history and yes 1940-present is included. I disagree, the one that is "not yet" will exist to the end and is the 7th. The seventh king will lose its throne to the 8th but both will be hurled into the fire together. Rev 19:20; "And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur."
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John 3:8; "The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.â€
Well since we're at an impasse between John and my view of empires over time, and Joshua and Frank's view that there is a modern entity represented by each of the 'actors' in Revelation, I'll just completely change the subject for a bit What if: the earth swallowing up the water disgorged by the dragon causes the 2-horned lamb to 'rise from the earth'? "But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth" Revelation 12:16 "Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon." Revelation 13:11 What does water often represent in the Bible? The true spiritual teaching of Christ, the 'water of life'. So in this framework, the dragon disgorging false Christian teaching into the earth, like Balaam (via Baal) trying to pollute Israel, leads to this two-horned-Christian-Satan-beast rising after the death-stroke of the first wild beast, propping up the first wild beast so the world worships man's political system, instead of heading the signs of Christ's presence. The 'earth' (the field?) of Christians comes to the aid of Christ's brothers, but are corrupted by the 'waters' so they begin speaking like Satan. Hard to imagine? Not really - imagine how easily Satan will be able to delude the patriotic wing of the Christian world into supporting the 'system' over Christ's coming kingdom!! Constituting a 'false prophet'. Except, unlike the Baal worshipers in Elijah's day, this prophet CAN call down fire from heaven in some fashion. Any thoughts? Debunks?
Interesting thought... Of course we have to separate the earth and the beast, Rev 12:16 says the "earth", which would be the same source as the beast from the earth, but not the beast itself. You also have kingdom against kingdom if the beast speaking as a dragon also swallows up the water the dragon spewed out... Something I find interesting though now that you bring it up, I think Rev 13 might just tell us where the throne of Satan is. I know Robert says he thinks it's in London, but there is no real scriptural proof of that, but here I think there might be proof of where scripture says it is, which also plays into the letter to Per′ga·mum. Rev 13:2 "And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority. Rev 13:11 "Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. Rev 13:12 "It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, Rev 13:15 "And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast,"
Yes, indeed - the 'earth' being mankind, which the second beast rises from, caused by the deluding influence of the waters from Satan. ------ So the throne then would be the second beast's 'kingdom'? Makes sense following the logic of the scriptures you posted.
Well it would depend on what you think that "image" is, sense (if the train of thought I presented is correct) Satans throne would be at the location of the image...