The Wild Beast

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jan 13, 2016.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Let's start with what we can say for sure, and go for as long as we can, without interpretation.

    It is safe to say, that the death stroke of the first beast in Rev 13 received it's stroke and was healed before the 1260 days begin, for it's this entity that comes against the constant feature to remove it.

    It can also be said that this beast suffers a fatal blow after this and after having had one of it's heads healed of a death stroke as seen in the fifth bowl.

    Rev 16:10 "The fifth one poured out his bowl on the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened, and they began to gnaw their tongues because of their pain,"

    We know this isn't the same moment as the healed death stroke because the second beast in Rev 13 causes fire to come down out of heaven in verse 13; "And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind." and this fire from heaven is the same as that found in Rev 8:7; "The first one blew his trumpet. And there was hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth;". This event was simply the first beast opening it's mouth in blasphemy against the holy covenant, beginning the 2300 days as mentioned of in Dan 8. So then, the first and second beasts of Rev 13 come to be before the first bowl and trumpet. Then this is the moment that starts the trumpets and bowls.

    The bowls and trumpets are the same event, and help define each other. You will notice that along with the fire that comes down out of heaven it falls on men giving them ulcers in Rev 16:2; "The first one went off and poured out his bowl on the earth. And a hurtful and malignant ulcer afflicted the people who had the mark of the wild beast and who were worshipping its image.". These men are those leaving the holy covenant that side with the beast when it opens its mouth against the constant feature as we see in Dan 11:30; "He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant."

    This also means that some receive the mark of the beast before the first trumpet and first bowl as seen in Rev 16:2.

    Therefore the events in the 13th chapter of Rev coincide with the first trumpet and bowl and must come before the events of the fifth trumpet and bowl (That of the wild beast going down.), making the healed death stroke a separate event then the bowl being poured out on the wild beast.

    Now let's take a look at that fifth bowl. You will notice that it coincides with the fifth trumpet, and what exactly happens after the fifth bowl is poured out on the wild beast? We see that at Rev 9:1; "The fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him."

    So once the wild beast goes down, the shaft of the abyss is opened in order for that beast to come out and to gather together all nations of the world for the great battle at Armageddon as you read further into the 9th chapter.

    We can also see this abyssing at Dan 7:11; "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire."

    So while the little horn was speaking words against the holy covenant (already doing so) then the wild beast goes down into the abyss, and then come out. Again, conformation that the healed death stroke from Rev 13 was before this abyssing.

    Now that leads to Rev 17:8; "The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss,". Here the wild beast ascends from the abyss, not the "sea" as mentioned of in Rev 13. The first beast comes from the sea in Rev 13 with only one of it's heads healed, but the entire beast comes from the abyss in Rev 17. Besides, the angel says, "the wild beast you saw". How did we see the wild beast? Didn't it already have a healed death stroke when it was presented to us? Yes, so since the healed death stroke was an event before the 1260 days began, and the abyssing and rising from the abyss occurs deep in the time of the end, we again see these are to separate events.

    Therefore it is safe to say the abyssing of the wild beast has not occurred yet, and will not until after the end begins, however that leaves us with the first beast of Rev 13, and when this event occurred. Since that beast has a healed death stroke before the first trumpets or bowls beginning the time of the end, it could have occurred anytime before the end, but are there any clues? Yes there are...

    We read in Rev 17:10; "And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.".

    So then, since the first beast in Rev 13 has seven heads, we know at least this beast comes from the sea after John penciled those words. It appears we cannot unhinge Johns statement here from his own time as we can with verse 8 and the wild beast "was" because verse 10 lacks the same obvious track to an event that can be shown occurring after Rev 13. With that said, if the 6th (or king that "is") was current in Johns time that means the 7th had not arrived and therefore you could not have a 7 headed wild beast. It should also be noted that since this wild beast is also an 8th king as stated in Rev 17:11, this is also telling us the beast had 7 heads when going into the abyss and then becoming the 8th when it emerges out.

    So, when does that 7th come about? When does that death stroke become healed?

    To be continued:
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Now let's look at something closely here;

    In Rev 12 the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Satan.

    Rev 12:3 "Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems;"

    Then we see this same description of the wild beast in Rev 17.

    Rev 17:3 "And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns."

    And 13;

    Rev 13:1 "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, but on its heads blasphemous names."

    If the dragon had 7 heads when Jesus was born, how does that play into the prophecy of the end?

    Does this tell us that Rev 12 and the dragon coming against the women has two fulfillment's? Can we say it represents the constant feature coming down in 66-70CE and as well the time of the end, and does this help our understanding of the wild beast?

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I am coming to the conclusion there just simply is no way to determine the identity of the wild beast without further fulfillment...
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Agreed, sadly.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    There's all kinds of candidates, but anything on our part is purely speculation beyond identities clearly state, such as in Daniel.

    We'll have to wait to see the fire from heaven, then we'll know...
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    The last wild beast already exists, but is being kept behind the scenes. World leaders have prepared the new beast but they have to put an end to the old beast, or at least "cripple it" before they can bring the new one up out of the sea. Expect the Anglo-American empire to fall very soon. This will appear to be an attack, but it is all pre-planned. Big business, which along with religion and the Central banks are running the show and are done with the western system. They don't like having to share "their" wealth with workers and prefer to go where they can get their work done the cheapest, by veritable slaves. More money in the bottom line. Also, they think they have the means now to keep the masses in line, or if need be wipe them out with a contrived war or plague or both.

    Look for the banking system to move from it's established headquarters in London and England to move to the East. The monetary power base is now eastward. The western banking system is completely bankrupt, the body is dead and starting rigor-mortise. The dollar is near it's death and will only be saved as a hollow shell of itself if the Eastern bankers allow it. U.S. and European currencies are not worth the paper and ink that goes into making them. Soon, the U.S. and Europe will be joining the third world in standard of living. It will get worse from there.

    Keep praying for God's Kingdom to come because that is our only hope. Short of that, we have no hope. Satan is still being allowed to run this world and when that comes to jeopardy he will destroy everything he can before he is put out of commission. Listen intently for the voice of the true shepherd. That voice will not come from the Watchtower. Their days of being God's representative are over. Keep listening and you will hear the direction as to where to go and when to do it. The angels will start their harvest soon.

    Frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The beast's death stroke has to be healed before the first trumpet.

    Rev 8:7 "The first one blew his trumpet. And there was hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth;"

    Rev 13:13 "And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind."

    As well, the beast doesn't go down until the fifth bowl, well within the time of the end.

    Rev 16:10 "The fifth one poured out his bowl on the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened,"
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Joshua:

    All this is already in the works. These "beasts" don't just appear out of thin air. They take decades and sometimes even Centuries to appear. But, you can be sure that this is already in the works. When the prior beast is dealt what appears to be it's "death blow" by the destruction of the financial centers of the Western system (New York and London, the two feet of the image of Daniel 2) the battle for the new center of finance of the world will commence. Daniel 7 tells us how this will happen in brief but complete detail. In the finally of the struggle, the new financial (and possibly religious) center of the world will be in the East. Russian will growl, and China and the nations of the Far East will make their case to be the center. But, the plan is already in place and all the other stuff is just window dressing. What we will finally get is the worst totalitarian government that the world has ever seen. The fourth beast of Daniel 7. But almost as quickly as this beast appears, God's Kingdom will do away with it. Those with faith and love must listen closely for the direction of the angels of the Holy Spirit and others who will direct the faithful on where to go and when to do it. This system will be closed up before Satan even knows what hit him.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Eu·phraʹtes, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the rising of the sun

    - Revelation 16:12

    Is the river symbolic? Are the kings from the east symbolic?

    The kings probably aren't symbolic, right? But we've discussed the river being symbolic.

    So what "concept" (river) needs to dry up for the kings of the east to conquer?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The Euphrates river fed Babylon;

    [​IMG]

    So it can't be an accident that right after the sixth bowl is poured out on the river that we see the judgement on BTG next in chapter 17.

    She is described as sitting on many waters; "Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters."

    Then we are given the description of the Euphrates river at Rev 17:15 "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

    So it's at this point that people start to abandon BTG facilitating the next event when she is turned upon by the beast.

    To me, this is all about chronology. It's about what event comes before or after another event. Without knowing that, there's no way to determine who each player is.

    Now just a few scriptures back it appears we have the explanation of the kings from the east, it is the ten kings that had not yet received a kingdom at Rev 17:12 "The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast."

    Of course as you know, if you make one mistake, like identifying Israel wrongly in the time of the end, you will be off on more then just that, each entity interacts with others.

    To summarize, I'll try to short hand my understanding of the events in the end in order;

    1. Denunciations hurled against the covenant (WTS)
    2. WTS goes down=Constant feature removed
    3. Call to rebuild Jerusalem (Spiritual)
    4. Beast goes down (Not the death stroke)
    5. Armies gathered together for final battle into one world order (Beast rises from abyss combined with 10 kings)
    6. Jesus is enthroned
    7. Spirit poured out/Dead in Christ resurrected
    8. Two witnesses killed (Literal two)
    9. Two witnesses resurrected
    10. Message to whole earth to worship God
    11. Gods temple attacked=Disgusting thing placed
    12. Dead in Christ and those living of sons raised to heaven
    12. Armageddon
    13. New World
     
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    Part #1

    Okay, I'm going to revisit this again... Let's see if we can fish some more info out...

    I'm just starting from ground level again, I always find it useful to work as far forward as possible, then start all over again...

    It appears that the 8th king must become that when it exists the abyss, that seems clear between these two scriptures;

    Rev 17:11 "it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction."

    Rev 17:8 "and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction."

     
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    Part #2

    I'm going to consider moving forward that the moment the beast comes from the abyss is recorded in Rev 9;

    Rev 9:1 "And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him."

    Now since the trumpets match the bowls then this also means the beast going into the abyss is recorded in that fifth bowl;

    Rev 16:10 "The fifth one poured out his bowl on the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened, and they began to gnaw their tongues because of their pain,"

    Now, can we go further to include the death stroke to one of the heads in Rev 13? I don't think so. Number one, the death stroke was to only one of the heads in Rev 13, while it's the whole beast that goes into the abyss and out in Rev 17. As well there is no wording or sentence structure that matches between the two accounts. The healed death stroke has no sentence structure comparison with coming out of the abyss. I simple cannot find a connection between the two, and must conclude that they are indeed separate. Just because there is one head that had a healed death stroke in Rev 13, that does not give proof of connection to the entire beast going into the abyss and out as depicted in Rev 17, there just simply isn't.

    Besides the fact the beast goes into the abyss at the fifth trumpet and bowl, and the death stroke occurs before the two witnesses even begin their work. You can't have the egg before the chicken...

    Comments?
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Hi Joshua:

    The 10 kings that you mention are the 10 toes of the image of Daniel 2 that have planned it's own destruction knowing that they will continue in power 'one hour with the beast". They are also the kings mentioned in the line...

    In the days of those kings [the days of those kings are the ten months that they rule with the beast until Jehovah obliterates them as spoine of in Daniel 7] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom+ that will never be destroyed. Those 10 kings are also "the stone" that is cut out of the mountain of the nation state system represented by the Image in Daniel. They cut themselves out, destroy the image with two fire from the heavens destructive weapons and then they set themselves up as representatives of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 for the "hour of the test" of Revelation 7. The become the last hurrah of Satan and their short lived Kingdom fills the whole earth, but only for a very short time, becasue even Satan knows he only has a "short time" to go at that point. Then the God of heaven will set up a Kingdom that will never be brought to ruin, the Kingdom of God under the Holy ones of the Supreme One. This starts tomorrow and the following Tuesday we think. Laugh all you want. But watch and wonder.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Hi Joshua:

    The eighth king is the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and it comes from the 7 in that the 10 toes are administrators from Anglo/America and those that they are in cahoots with in this final takeover. Ten toes from KIng # 7 become administrators in KIng #8. You create the sickness and then you provide the cure. It's 911 all over again. The people will be begging the fourth king of Daniel 7 to take away all their freedoms it they will just provide them with peace and security.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    The "death stroke" gets healed because it is a purposeful self inflicted "death stroke" that is only meant to appear fatal. They plannded this on themselves. They have known that the Western fiat money system would die eventually on the day they started it many years ago. They know that it is beyond salvagging, so they are destroying it themselves to set up the next system, King #8. The players are the same, well at least in the beginning (ten toes become ten kings who rule with the new beast for "one hour" which is ten months and runs concurrent with the "last hour of test" of Revelation 3. It's not that hard kids if you know what you are looking at.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I am looking for direct scriptural connections, scripture to scripture.
     
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    Dan 7:21 "I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,"

    Dan 7:25 "He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One."

    Dan 8:12 "because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success."

    Dan 8:24 "He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones."

    Dan 11:30 "He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant."

    Rev 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months."

    Rev 13:6 "And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven."

    Rev 13:7 "It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

    Let's take into consideration the scriptural connection presented above;

    So, some things we can say for certain.; The small horn of Dan 7 is the mouthpiece of the beast in Rev 13. Putting aside for a moment multiple fulfillment's, we must understand they represent the same entity. Both seem to be the mouthpiece of the beast as a whole. The horn in Dan 7:20 is described as "the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly.". As well the beast in Rev 13 is given a mouth speaking the same things in verse 5; "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies." While both are described in the same exact wording as to; "wage war with the holy ones."

    We know from Dan 11 that it is the KOTN who will speak these blasphemies against the holy ones. So are we looking at one entity within a larger conglomerate beast speaking, or are we seeing a single entity speaking? It would appear that the one thing we can say for sure is that the little horn/KOTN and the beast in Rev are one in the same. Can we also say that the beast the little horn comes from is part of this group? I would adventure to say yes, since you can't have a horn without a beast. Therefore, so far we have just drawn the fourth beast into the KOTN and as well part of that first beast in Rev 13.

    So one must conclude that either each consecutive kingdom took over for the next and adopted the traits of the last to be seen as a whole in Rev 13, or that in fact each beast in Dan 7 has a modern day fulfillment (multi fulfillment). Since we know that Babylon is alive and well in the time of the end, and she is represented by the lion in Dan 7, then it would seem we should lean toward at least a dual fulfillment for those beasts. So yes, we must conclude that the fourth beast the little horn comes from must have more then one fulfillment.

    Now, since Babylon the great is seen with the blood of the holy ones in Rev 17:6; "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." It seems safe to conclude she is that mouthpiece in Rev 13 in which the lion is depicted as the head of that beast. The head of gold in the image of Dan 2, the lion in Dan 7, the lion in Rev 13 all depicting Babylon/BTG.

    This also tells us something else interesting, that Babylon must also be the little horn of Dan 7. Since it is Babylon that is soaked with the blood of the holy ones, and the mouthpiece that brings down the holy ones, she must not only be the lion in Dan 7 but also the little horn of the fourth beast, as well the small horn of Dan 8.

    This means that Babylon has to have been reborn at some point in the past. At some point she is depicted as coming down, and then reborn, and since Babylon is the only nation named alive in the time of the end, and we know is one of the heads of the beast in Rev 13, that means the death stroke to one of the heads in Rev 13 that is healed, must be Babylon!

    Now just as Dan 7 separates the fierce beast and the little horn from the other beasts, so does Rev 13. It must be concluded that the two horned second beast in Rev 13 must represent the fourth beast and small horn separated out of the conglomeration of beasts of the first, even though they are part of it as a whole, hence why the second beast is described as "It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight." (Rev 13:12)

    I'll stop there for now...
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Agreed - you can probably add the 'man of lawlessness' to the list of identities as well; exact same description / function.

    I vote for 'modern day fulfillment', but disconnect Daniel 7 from Daniel 2's empires.

    (Daniel 7 = toes in Daniel 2 and pre-joined Rev 13 Wild Best)

    Alternatively, the 4th beast subsumes the previous 3, which gives us the Revelation 13 Wild Beast.

    I disagree with this one; that language is ripped from descriptions of Israel.

    Jesus attributed this to his generation of Jews:

    "Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,"

    Also the women rides on top of the beast, the beast has the Lion mouthpiece; not the rider!

    The reason you're making this connection is linking Daniel 2 -> 7 and the name "Babylon"?

    Interesting point -- pondering!
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Wouldn't you say that Jesus words above were meant to denote all the blood of all the prophets up to that point in history? So that means not for the blood shed after 70CE.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I can't see a reason to disconnect the image in Dan 2 from the beasts in Dan 7. The head of gold and the lion we surely would agree match Babylon, and as you say the ten toes match, so why wouldn't they be 1:1?
     

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