The rest seem to be full of nonsense; people so hurt from the WTBS that they lose their ability to reason. I won't name URLs, but this is the only place I've found where we can rationally discuss the WTBS / Bible / Jehovah. I've encountered ex-JWs taking up the argument for "hell" and the trinity, because they are so anti-WTBS. It's sad Truth > All else
Absolutely ! Today, I was mulling over different ideas (... I confess, putting my mind at rest... ) in regards to the thread about Fear and Fault and I was skimming through Facebook pages entitled, among other ones : "I'm perfect, you're doomed". I was sad, in dismay even, while reading the comments and reactions therein. Although the people posting there may look caricatural and do manifestly express extreme opinions, their feelings nevertheless represent a tangible part of what many b/s may already feel or may start struggling against in their daily lives. "I'm perfect, you're doomed". If b/s already felt "threatened" and/or still feel "threatened" to the point of using that sentence as a motto, it means that there is something wrong in how Jesus' message is spelled out and applied in the local congregations. Such widespread reactions don't come out of the blue and overnight. Granted, there are wonderful and loving elders in the congregations. I met a few of them in the past and still deeply respect them. Yet, I know that the worst and the best may cohabit within a body of elders and the best doesn't always have the upper hand... Here again in said Facebook pages, doesn't anger conveniently hide different other kinds of feelings ? Only God knows that which our hearts hide... People are responsible of the extent of their reactions but the religious leaders in question should have a better awareness of the impact of their unconscious messages on the hypersensitive/tormented sheep, whom they claim to have been appointed upon as shepherds... So many of them, those poor and distraught sheep, reacting thusly. That can't be mere vagaries or swing moods... May our dear heavenly father help us all keep this forum be a place wherein we find what we were looking for when we signed in in the first place !
Hi all, It would be very shortsighted to believe this. Jwstruggle.com Paradise cafe. womaninthewilderness.com christianforumatic.com to name a few forums that are full of people looking at the truth of God's word. It would be very shortsighted to believe that this is the only forum that is seeking truth. belongingtojah
Dear BTJ, SingleCell didn't say that this is the only forum that is seeking truth. Additionally, as SingleCell also implied, it is obvious that some of them seek the truth and will keep seeking it for a long time given that they are manifestly heading in the wrong direction...
That is precisely what I mean paradisecafe for example - plenty of decent study information, but it's sandwiched by dozens of nonsensical "anything but JW theology" threads/posts. So it becomes 'abundant knowledge' without ever finding truth, because (IMO) they reject the basics. "Baby out with the bath water" is the term, I think. This forum isn't like that; we *basically* accept the doctrinal truths Russel and others uncovered, but reject the verifiable-false WT prophetic framework. I'm not trying to prop anyone/thing up, or insult anyone/anything - I'm just thankful that I can come here and not be bombarded with an attack on basic bible principles. On PC at least, I feel like I'm out in the wild arguing the trinity / hell / eternal soul / preterism, etc. In some sense, I feel the other sites you mentioned belongingtojah are misdirects. Take 'Doxcey' for example - her framework is truly nonsensical; the Watchtower is the BEAST of revelation? Beasts aren't empires, but religious institutions? Elders are evil boogie men seeking to misdirect people's souls away from Jehovah? ^ this illustrates my point, they (she) was hurt by the WTBS (legitimately hurt!), but the reaction is this illogical response which seems like a 'gotcha' against JWs rather than an investigation into truth. Same with ablebodiedman. Watch his youtube channel and tell me that his entire 'new light' framework is anything but a response against the damage the WTBS created in his life. [edit: actually ablebodiedman hasn't gone off the deep end, which I feel bad suggesting of anyone, but in Doxcey's case it's the only conclusion I can see ... ablebodiedman's argument is that the 'synagogues' are KHs, and those who tell the truth are expelled/killed from them - which is true in some sense, but the fulfillment of that prophecy was in the 1st century when the literal synagogues expelled Christians / delivered them to death - so IMO his framework starts with a false assumption - and the driver behind that assumption is his legitimate emotional reaction to being disfellowshipped] (I love these people, truly, but I feel like they are replacing truth with emotion) An honest analysis would go something like this: 1. Yes, the WTBS may be apostate 2. The prophecies show that the leaders of God's people are DRUNK on spiritual knowledge leading up to the time of the end 3. The drunk spiritual state leads to 'teaching the fear of God as the commands of men' Conclusion: The WTBS may actually be the 'house of God' which is judged. It may not ... but it's at least on the short list of sensible conclusions. [to be clear, this has NOTHING to do with second death judgment - you don't need to be a "JW" to be 'saved' - that is preposterous] Simple acknowledgement that Jesus fulfilled the role of Messiah, and an ATTEMPT in your life to make yourself knew and put away the old personality (IMO) are the requirements for 'salvation'. (requirement is too strong a word; the unrighteous receive a resurrection to judgment [1000 year reign]) The blood of the lamb, and SOMETHING in your life that shows you have faith in that blood. That SOMETHING may be simply acknowledging to people that you believe Jesus was the messiah (the thief who died near Jesus, for example).
Another point: just so you don't think I'm a judgmental jerk There may well be 'a ha' moments on those other forums, which you won't find here. I had a few light bulbs go off reading Doxcey's work! But as a framework for putting these things into a larger context, it seems to me that they fundamentally wrong starting from an 'anything but' or 'anti-' JW starting point. Thus-far it seems that Robert King's work is a good launchpad, internally cohesive and Biblically cohesive. Personally I operate somewhere between these conceptions: 1. All professing Christians make up the house of God And a major shakeup is coming soon OR 2. The JWs make up the 'house of God' (not to the exclusion of other denominations regarding salvation, but as fulfillment of prophecy - and the other denominations are represented by the Edomites, Moabites, Samaritans, etc) And a major shakeup is coming soon Here are a few facts: 1. The JWs teach basic biblical doctrine, where the other denominations are hit/miss depending on subject, mostly miss (I speak as a 10 year long evangelical, and former Lutheran) 2. The other churches engage in war and certainly will again, they have more faith in 'freedom' and 'faith based government' than Jehovah 3. The JWs WILL be out in the ministry when the govt. institutions outlaw such things 4. The JWs proved their faith during the WW2 persecution (meanwhile, the other denominations were executing each other) Because of this, I tend to side with #2. I have to repeat myself so this is clear: I'm not propping up one Christian over another, or saying JWs are the only path to Jehovah. This is prophetic analysis against present reality.
For example, what does Jehovah really ask of us? Isaiah 1 seems like one of the best answers in the Bible: I have hated your new moons and your festivals. They have become a burden to me; I am tired of bearing them. 15 And when you spread out your palms, I hide my eyes from you. Although you offer many prayers, I am not listening; Your hands are filled with blood. 16 Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove your evil deeds from my sight; Stop doing bad. 17 Learn to do good, seek justice, Correct the oppressor, Defend the rights of the fatherless child, And plead the cause of the widow. In other words, Jehovah doesn't care about this 'religious' nonsense in the way of the formalized practice of worshiping him; rather, he asks that we be righteous to each other, and especially care for those who are weaker. Non-JW Christians DO attempt to behave righteously, with varying degrees, just like JWs. But when we talk about a body of people collectively going against the 3C apostasy legalized by Constantine, the JWs seem to be the only group of unified people doing that, while preaching the message of the coming kingdom. The leadership issues were prophesied extensively in Ezekiel (13), Joel, and Isaiah (not to mention Jeremiah).
Hi Single Cell, First of all I wish to say that I don't think you are a jerk. You have done a good job of articulating your belief's and have left room for small changes in your understanding as more info becomes available. When I said that it might be shortsighted to exclude other forums I didn't mean that I believed every single poster on these sights. In fact there are some that are like little thornbushes and there are others that I feel a real kindredness in the spirit with. No one human person has all the answers - all of us who are looking to God's word of truth for knowledge and understanding are growing spiritually. It is important to give consideration to the bible based thoughts and beliefs of other christians. If the spirit in us twinges because there is a thought that is out of line with scripture that we have come to know then after meditating and praying we should give a answer. Like yourself I believe that the watchtower organization has and will in the future fulfill bible prophecies. They are like a dragnet catching fish. Whereas Christendom is like a bigger dragnet. In both cases not all caught are desireable. In second thought that watchtower organization has become like the false prophet that caused the old prophet to turn aside to his house even though Jehovah told him to not stop or eat until he was completely out of the area. Why would a prophet turn aside from following the exact directions of Jehovah? Because after all this other prophet claimed that Jehovah had said it is ok to come to his house. This cost him his life. This is why I knew that I must not stay in this house that claims to be a channel of the only True God Jehovah. While it is true that the watchtower organization has many truths of accurate knowlege that we all appreciate and fills the need for association - that is the hook - as the spirit of truth awakens us we realize that it is important to speak all the truth of God's word and to look only to Jesus as our mediator and channel to the true God Jehovah. I'm also thinking that in a larger overall way Christendom is doing the same thing - Turn aside here we are the way to Jesus - I know of at least 1 person who has never been a witness that is spiritually awake and has been given understanding of these things. And he is on the jwstruggle forum. Just some thoughts about your reply Single Cell. Have a blessed day. belongingtojah
this forum seems to be one of the onley forums that are keeping with jehovah and jesus without nonsenseical ideas interpooled and hints to come and join this new church.I wil however point out that right here in the united states their are small christian settlements that do not go about practiceing wicked ways of the world these people grow their own food and meat and work hard so that troubled famileys can come and stay 6 months to 2 years and be taught how to live christian lives and leave to go do so. they dont have any conection with the kingdomhall yet their walk with christ is quite genuine, and their is a startleing lack of imoral behaviors. and fruit after fruit of the spirit. the bible students forum is kind of boreing but their doctorine is clean enough.dont feel alone in here their are plenty of other sheep out their.
Dear SingleCell, What you explained shows a lot in those forums, that's a fact. About 2 months ago, I was making some research about the expression kat'oikon and its English counterpart "from house to house/in private homes". It's obviously related to the preaching work. On those forums, some members would explain at length that it can't be "from house to house" as the WT teaches because many Bibles render this expression as "according to house/in private houses", that the context imposes the use of the rendering "according to house/in private houses" and some of them even dabble in Greek with footnotes and commentaries supposedly proving that kat'oikon doesn't mean "from house to house". Then, consequently, feeling happy for having been able to "prove" the WT wrong, they proudly pursue their indictment against the WT, accusing them of falsifying God's word, reject the NWT as rubbish and so forth. There are slews of proofs showing that kat'oikon means either "from house to house" or "according to house". At times, the context slightly orientates the translator towards "according to house" without ruling out "from house to house" altogether. That's quite subjective. The WT isn't wrong in using "from house to house". Even the English expression "from house to house" can be interpretated differently : call to all of the houses in a given place or just one house after the other at random or according to how lucky are the encounters ? In a pinch, if the WT is guilty of anything in that regard, it may be of reading too much into those verses and of declaring that the way the preaching work is organized nowadays corresponds exactly to how Jesus' disciples were carrying it out back in those days. They sort of want to claim a patent on it. In fact, nobody knows in details how they were carrying it out so neither the WT or its detractors are objectively and honestly able to prove their points for good. As you said, SingleCell, that's everything but the WT. They don't like that teaching about the preaching work so their goal is to "debunk" it. I wanted to start a more thorough new thread about it. I hope I have the time for it one day. Anti-JW : What we read : The Greek used at Acts 5:42 and Acts 20:20 is not Ek oikia eis oikia, but rather Kata oikos. For this reason bible translations usually render this “in every houseâ€, “at home†or “in their homesâ€. Whilst the New World Translation of Acts 20:20 uses the phrase “house to house†the footnote acknowledges that the Greek word means “in private housesâ€. Pro-JW : From here, which is a Catholic website that teaches biblical Greek. Here, "de maison en maison" means "from house to house". f) Accusatif distributif cf. Lu.2:41 Ex. kay'hmeran apoynhskw 1Co.15:31 cf. Mt.26:55 chaque jour je meurs Ex. pasan te hmeran en tw ierw kai kat'oikon ouk epauonto didaskontev et chaque jour au temple et de maison en maison ils ne cessaient d'enseigner Ac.5:42 I have plenty of other examples in regards to the pro-JW point of view (like Bible translations), but that's not the point of this thread.
I've been musing on this topic for the whole afternoon. lol In fact, what matters isn't what kat'oikon really means but how the expression "from house to house" is interpretated by the WT and also that there are other means of reaching people detailed in the Bible (which the WT has been promoting since only a few years ago now). Yet, the WT conveniently forgets them and uses the organized preaching work (two by two, knocking on all doors*, etc) as a hallmark, a distinctive mark so they stand out of the other religions and can boast over it. * In itself, that method isn't wrong.
Interesting Utuna, very interesting. What I gather from your research is that any 'church' can build a doctrinal framework through translation. So given that fact, it seems that our only hope for the 'truth' lies in the spirit, and not translation nuance. So what do you all think the spirit says regarding the ministry? I would have to agree with the WTBS here. Unfortunately true to prophecy (presuming the WTBS has a part in that) the WTBS has created a framework where those who do not 'go house to house' are somehow unacceptable non-Christians. "the fear of God ... as the commands of men" "to those who work it is accounted as debt, to those who do not work it is accounted as a free gift"
Your observations are very pertinent ! You have understood and broached many aspects at the same time. You know, prophetic enigmas bore me stiff but I've been reading a lot about the LXX lately and translation problems have been an issue for centuries. Nothing new under the sun. More to come tomorrow.
Hi all, I have posted here only a few times and have enjoyed the interchange of thoughts and encouragement. I would like to know if the main emphasis here on this forum is the letting of the anointing teach us or is it a matter of the watchtower organization is the mouthpiece of Jehovah? I myself believe that the anointing is what is the true teacher. 1John 2: 26 These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. 27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. Do any of you here believe that the watchtower organization has fallen short of listening to this divine instruction? There is a command - not a suggestion - to test every inspired expression. 1 John 4: Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. Do any of you who are administators here believe that the governing body which claims to be the only faithful and discreet slave are what they claim to be? If the answer is yes then I guess that I have wandered into the wrong forum. Please tell me what I should do. belongingtojah.