Thursday, August 25

Discussion in 'Daily Text' started by Jinnvisible, Aug 22, 2016.

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    Jinnvisible

    Jinnvisible Experienced Member

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    Thursday, August 25

    The last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.1 Cor. 15:26.


    When they were created, Adam and Eve had no enemies whatsoever. They were perfect humans who lived in a paradise. They enjoyed a close relationship with their Creator as his son and daughter. (Gen. 2:7-9;Luke 3:38)

    Their life prospects were indicated in the very commission God gave them. (Gen. 1:28)

    To “fill the earth and subdue it” could be accomplished in a certain amount of time. But to continue to ‘have in subjection every living creature that is moving on the earth,’ Adam and Eve would need to live forever, Adam never having to abdicate his oversight by dying. Although they had the prospect of living forever, Adam and Eve were not immortal. To keep living, they had to breathe, drink, sleep, and eat. More important, their lives depended on their relationship with their Life-Giver. (Deut. 8:3) Accepting God’s guidance would be essential for their continuing to enjoy life.


    w149/15 4:1,
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    How were Adam and Eve "perfect" when they were created but Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered and through suffering and his obedience? You mean that Adam and Eve were perfect at creation but Jesus had to work at it? Something is wrong with this thinking. Can you see that?

    10 For it was fitting that the one for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory,+ should make the Chief Agent of their salvation+ perfect through sufferings Hebrews 2:10

    Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.+9 And after he had been made perfect,+ he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,+ Hebrews 5:8,9

    More than that, when he came as a man,* he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death,+ yes, death on a torture stake.*+9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:8-11

    But they will never change this unscriptural teaching, will they?

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So you think God created an imperfect being in Adam and Eve? lol... Why would he do such a thing. Of course they were perfect.

    You misunderstand Jesus being made perfect. Of course he was perfect in his life, he was made perfect at his death in the sense he perfectly did his fathers will up until death. It had not been known until that moment whether he would continue in perfection.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    The Watchtower teaches that Adam and Eve cannot be ransommed because being "perfect", if they sin they cannot be forgiven. I say that they were made exactly like Jehovah wanted them to be to start their life and the life of all mankind on earth. But, they would have to "grow" or be led to perfection by the things they suffered and by their obedience to Jehovah God.

    When you reach perfection Joshua, like Jesus did and has, you love perfectly, you have perfect wisdom, you know how to use your power perfectly, in essence you become love, power, wisdom etc. That is why Jesus was elevated by Jehovah to a position higher than the angels because when you reach perfection, you are love and when you are love, you are God and now as Hebrews 1 tells us you are actually then a true member of God's family.

    Adam and Eve had a long way to go to be "perfect" in the sense that Jesus had attained to perfection by his perfect obedience through trial. But Adam and Eve can be and have been ransommed by Jesus sacrifice.

    I thought you already told me that you didn't believe this drivel!

    The scriptures clearly say that Jesus was perfected by his obedience. If he was "perfected" than he wasn't in every sense perfect before he started. I'm not saying that the scriptures are.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Much of the societies understandings are incorrect, but their core beliefs of the nature of God are in line with truth, that's what makes them Jehovah's courtyard.

    It is clear that he was perfect in every sense from the beginning, the reading of the NT denotes that although he was perfect his perfection was sealed or stamped at his death when dying perfect. Not knowing if he would remain faithful meant he didn't have perfect perfection until completing his fathers will.

    This is my understanding...
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Read the scriptures and stop putting in your or the Watchtower's additions to it. When you are perfect you become God in the family of God. Prior to that you are striving for perfection. Adam and Eve fell short, but they were always going to. They were no match for Satan the Devil who was even able to fool angels out of their relationship with Jehovah God and they saw him with their own eyes (mataphorically of course). Someone had to teach Abel the truth, who was it? Not Cain! So it was Adam, which shows that he was repentant for his loving his wife more than he loved Jehovah. Remember, when a hardened sinner (like Cain) sins, they do not repent but they continue "opposing" God, like Cain and his Father the Devil. But repentant ones turn around to the doing of good, like Adam when he taught his sons that on a certain day they were to offer up firstlings of the flock, plus their fatty pieces to point forward to the sacrifice of the Christ. Unrepentant sinners do not teach their sons things like this, they teach them demonic equivalents. Adam was repentant for his sins and he was ransommed by Jesus and that's why we are also ransommed. All Jesus had to do was ransom Adam and we are all ransommed just as we all inherited the consequences of his sin as Romans and other scriptures clearly say.
     
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    Barry

    Barry New Member

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    I don't believe that is was God's purpose that Adam and Eve would have to "suffer" and be obedient. If they would have been obedient they would still have been alive in a paradise, which I believe would be without suffering.

    Jesus was alive here on earth. He had to deal with all the hardships people have to go through because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve.
    I mean Jesus was perfect, but it must have been difficult for him to see all the suffering going on. Remember the case with Lazarus when Jesus was in tears. Lazarus was going to get a ressurection. How much more must Jesus have been sad to see all the things happening to the people.
    He could have used his power to help a lot more people, but this was not according to the purpose. All of this could have had an influence on the outcome of Jesus mission.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Jehovah walked about in the earth, and spoke to them directly. Read your Bible Frank.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Show us Joshua where it says that Jehovah taught Abel directly. You know you are stretching the truth Joshua!
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi Jan:
    If Jesus was already perfect Jan, why does the Bible use these expressions in the scriptures that I quoted? I didn't give my own opinion, I gave you scripture from the word of God that you are now perverting to justify an unjustifiable position. If Adam is not ransomed then neither are you and I. Jesus cannot ransom everyone. Jehovah's justice was life for life, not life for 14 billion lives. All Jesus had to do was ransom Adam which was indeed life for life and his ransom effectively ransoms all who have lived in the past that show faith in that ransom and the ransomer

    Is that really that hard to comprehend?

    When Eve took of the fruit and sinned, that act caused Adam an unspeakable amount of pain. Had he resisted the tendency to love her more than he loved Jehovah, he would have moved one step closer to real perfection. But he did not, contrary to the actions of Jesus who did resist every painful test that was put in his path. Each time Jesus passed one of those tests he moved closer and closer to true perfection up to and including giving his life as a ransom.

    Before that he was a sinless human with all of the fantastic qualities that he had, but he was not truly "perfect" yet, not until he passed all the tests of his love and his faith.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Who told them sacrifices were needed to Jehovah Frank? Who told Cain the murder of his brother was wrong?

    Bible 101
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    To be perfect also means to be "fit" for a certain purpose....

    PERFECTION

    (Lat. perfectum, "made out," complete) is applied to that which wants nothing. According to some, it is divided into physical or natural, whereby a thing has all its powers and faculties; moral, or an eminent degree of goodness and piety; and metaphysical or transcendent in the possession of all the essential attributes or parts necessary to the integrity of a substance; or, in general, it is that whereby a thing has or is provided with everything belonging to its nature. Perfection is relative or absolute. A being possessed of all the qualities belonging to its species in the highest degree may be called perfect in a relative sense. But absolute perfection can only be ascribed to the Supreme Being. We have the idea of a Being infinitely perfect — and from this Descartes reasoned that such a Being really exists.

    (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic
    Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006. All rights reserved.)
     

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