Tribulation VS Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jan 1, 2015.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Cristo

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    According to your timeline the Great Tribulation begins before the disgusting thing is placed.

    However, according to the scriptures the placing of the disgusting thing comes before the Great Tribulation.

    Matthew 24:15-21 “. . .“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) ...for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, . . .â€￾
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The reason I posted the timeline this way is a little more complex then just Mathew 24:21. It seems that verse 29 is a timeline reset. It appears that verse 29 is speaking of verses 5-12 when it says "after", the time before the disgusting thing is placed. The reason for this is chronology throughout the Bible as a whole.

    Starting with the comparison of Dan 12:1 and Mathew 24:21.

    Dan 12:1 "During that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book."

    Mathew 24:21 "for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again"

    Now, in Rev the moment Jesus is enthroned is also the moment that the call like a trumpet comes to gather the chosen ones, the hail and earthquakes come and the third woe. So the point of my starting the GT at Jesus enthronement is the fact that all of chronology points to that time while Mathew 24:21 could be simply speaking of a time during the GT when the disgusting thing is placed, it doesn't say that it starts then, only that there will be GT at that time. In order to determine exactly when the GT begins we must take into account all of scripture and chronology, because these accounts in Math, Mark, Luke etc, contain many, many events in the time of the end. You must know which event comes before or after each other event to understand when the GT begins. If you do not know 100%, you cannot be sure.

    I suppose without understanding the chronology as I have laid out and why I believe Jesus is enthroned when he is in the time of the end, then this may be a moot subject to debate, because the reason I posted the tribulation vs great tribulation timeline as I have goes far beyond Mathew 24:21. It involves the Bible and chronology as a whole, and unless we are prepared to debate when Jesus is enthroned in the time of the end, when the sun and moon is darkened, when Christs brothers are gathered, when the stars of heaven fall, when the sign of the son of man will come, when the disgusting thing is placed, etc, etc, etc, then there is no reason to localize this discussion to only Math 24:21, for it does not say it begins with the disgusting thing being placed, only that there will be GT when it is placed. As well, we know that the events described after verse 29 all occur after the tribulation, think about that.
     
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    Cristo

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    Put your own spin on it however you want. The scripture is clear regarding the disgusting thing standing in a holy place AND THEN the Great Tribulation occurring. For it to stand it must be placed there first in order to catch sight of it. Maybe you should apply this to your timeline for it would certainly make it more accurate, if only by

    Argue it till you're blue, I don't care, tip tap type away saying otherwise, and it won't make a bit of difference from the truth that is already there in black and white.


    Matthew 24:15-21 “. . .“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, . . .â€￾



    I'll fix it for ya....

    [​IMG]
     

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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Actually I think this is a bit closer to what you are trying to say regarding the tribulation.

    [​IMG]
     

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Nice try...lol But not quite, there are some major paradoxes in your idea. There is a reason why I mentioned to think about Mth 24:29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

    Now notice;

    Mth 24:22 "In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."

    Do you see the paradox in your thinking? 22 says the GT is cut short, whereas you have all kinds of nasty things happening after the tribulation is over in 29. You have people beating themselves in grief after the tribulation, stars falling, etc, in verses 29-31. Tell me why it says "after the tribulation" and then describes extreme conditions.

    Since the events from Mth 15-28 are all described as occurring during the GT, then why does 29 say that everything from 29-31 happen after that said tribulation (if they are the same event "as you say")?
     
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    Cristo

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    I think you are confusing the tribulation that Jesus said the disciples were to go through Matthew 24:9 “. . .“Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name.â€￾

    with the great tribulation. According to you there is a general tribulation that is a timeframe for all the events to happen within. And then there is also an event called the Great Tribulation.

    I fixed it for you so it would be easier to understand.

    [​IMG]
     
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    Cristo

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    Put your own spin on it however you want. The scripture is clear regarding the disgusting thing standing in a holy place AND THEN the Great Tribulation occurring. For it to stand it must be placed there first in order to catch sight of it. Maybe you should apply this to your timeline for it would certainly make it more accurate, if only by

    Argue it till you're blue, I don't care, tip tap type away saying otherwise, and it won't make a bit of difference from the truth that is already there in black and white.


    Matthew 24:15-21 “. . .“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, . . .â€￾



    This timeline is more accurate but still needs alot of work. The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement right??


    [​IMG]
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You didn't get what I was asking, do you notice that everything from Mth 24:29-31 is said to occur after the tribulation? After...
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    No I saw it and got it. Make your point...it's easier to converse when I don't have to guess what you are trying to say.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    My question was already asked, how can the GT be cut short but then after the tribulation you have the events described?
     
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    Cristo

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    I didn't ask you to re-ask your question 3 times now. I asked you for your point. Gaslight all you want...but make a point.
     
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    Utuna

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    Easy, it happened twice in the past.

    If the chosen ones are gathered together after v.31, then the verses recorded before don't apply to them, if I follow your reasoning. The anointed ones can't flee out of Jerusalem if they are already in heaven. Besides, what need is there to save* the "chosen" ones if they're already in heaven, given the nature of their destiny (they must die).

    *make them flee or do things on account of them.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I believe my point was clear, but for the sake of words I will try and be more precise.

    All of the events after verse 29 have to come after the tribulation because that's what it says;

    Mth 24:30-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

    That includes the chosen ones being gathered. This gathering is the same as what happens at the 7th trumpet/trumpet call of 1Th 4:16. You also have the stars of heaven falling and the powers of the heavens shaken. You have the sign of the son of man in heaven and people beating themselves with grief, and it clearly says all of this happens after the tribulation ends! That is the point I was making. The chosen ones are not in heaven yet, this is their gathering.

    So the solution, (as I have already said) is that the tribulation spoken about in verse 29 must be talking about the tribulation only to Gods people in verse 9, and cannot be talking about the GT in verse 21. Verse 29 is speaking about the tribulation to Gods people ending when Jesus is enthroned at the end of the 1260 days, and when that ends you have the stars falling, heavens shaken, people seeing the sign of Christ and people beating themselves with grief, then the chosen ones gathered. This all describes the GT! Therefore verses 29-31 is telling us what starts the GT. The GT starts with those events, and during those events the disgusting thing will be placed. Mth 24:21 "for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." This scripture does not say that the GT starts when the disgusting thing is placed, but only that during that time there will be GT. In fact the GT must begin after the tribulation is over, and those events are described in 29-31. Verses 29-31 are describing what starts the GT, because they occur right after the tribulation ends. Tribulation then great tribulation.

    LOOK CLOSELY:

    The events in 29-31 must come before 15-24. If you notice 23-28 that the sign of Christ has not come yet, but after 29 it has... LOOK!

    Mth 24:23-28 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you. Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

    This is admonishing others to not believe false Christs for they will see him plain as day. That means that had not occurred yet in the GT, but in verse 30 it says; "Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven." and this is said to occur "after the tribulation". Therefore the sign of Christ CANNOT come during the tribulation, but sometime after. The tribulation in verse 29 must be talking about the tribulation in verse 15 before the disgusting thing is placed, and then the events described in 30-31 must be during the GT which falls after the tribulation. Then once the first tribulation (on Gods people) ends you have the sign of Christ and have the stars falling and Gods people gathered and then the disgusting thing is placed. You would not have a warning during the GT to not believe others about false Christs, and you would not have God telling you what to expect from the sign of Christ if it had already occurred before the tribulation had ended. Come on guys, there can be no paradoxes in chronology. 29 says that the sign of Christ and all the other events occur "after the tribulation".

    This is what chronology throughout all of scripture says. Let's look at Daniel chapter 12. Verse 7, “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish." Here we have a description of the 1260 day period Jerusalem will be in captivity, the time the two witnesses are in sackloth. Now, Jesus is enthroned and Holy Spirit poured out when Jerusalem is reestablished at the end of those 1260 days.

    So when is the disgusting placed? 30 days later, for we see that in verse 11, “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days." So therefore the disgusting thing is placed 30 days after Jesus is enthroned, after the stars fall from heaven, after the sign of Christ is seen, after the chosen ones are gathered and 1290 days after the constant feature is removed, which was the start of the 1260 days.
     
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    Utuna

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    No, I'm sorry but your explanations are incomprehensible.

    The GT starts when the disgusting thing is seen in a place where it should not be (Jerusalem/Temple) and when the "Jews" must flee Jerusalem. Besides, there's no need to warn his disciples against false Christs and false prophets after your version of the GT (vv. 23-28) if he has already shown himself to them, to the nations through his sign and eventually gathered his disciples.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The sign of his presence is not the same as him coming in the clouds. At the end of the 1260 days will be a "sign" of his presence when those remaining on earth of Christs brothers will transfigure like Moses and Stephen, and that is the reports the North hears in Dan 11:44,45 “But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him." Jesus does not come in the clouds until 40 days after the sign of his presence is seen.

    My explanations are not incomprehensible, you just don't understand them. My simple point is that Mth 29-31 describes events after the tribulation, but you claim they happen during it, since you think the GT and the tribulation are the same, when clearly all the events from Mth 29-31 are after the tribulation.
     
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    Utuna

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    Besides, Luke 21:24 says that Jerusalem must be destroyed and trampled on until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. Therefore, the placing of the disgusting thing can only take place at the start of the appointed times of the nations (Luke 21:20), because the "Jews" must catch sight of it before fleeing.
     
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    Utuna

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    Ok, I'll therefore go back to my favorite subjects of study and leave the interpretation of prophecies to the pros... :)

    A cobbler should stick to his last...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Tell me this, if Jerusalem was surrounded in 66CE and the disgusting thing placed was when Rome entered the city in 70CE, how can they be the same event?

    Luk 21:20 "However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near."
     
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    Utuna

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    You omit my main point ; where do the appointed times of the nations fit in your chronology ?

    It's not just a question of being surrounded... "and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

    When did all of this happen : 66CE, 70CE ? Then, how long did the appointed times of the nations last after 70 CE, after the disgusting thing was placed, according to your chronology ? How long will it last after the modern-day disgusting thing is placed ? Will the appointed times of the nations last till way after the new world comes in ?

    Jerusalem being trampled on... does Jerusalem being surrounded suffice to fulfill the prophecy recorded in Luke ?

    I hope that you won't tell me now that Luke 21:20 isn't the same event as Mat. 24:15 and Mark 13:14, let alone that if the disciples had to wait to have the disgusting thing placed in 70 CE to know when to flee, they were doomed...

    ok, ok, I'm back to my last...

    :)
     

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