Tribulation VS Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jan 1, 2015.

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    4winds

    4winds Guest

    @Utuna

    This is a speculation, but it may have merit for the "appointed times" if we stick to a few basics everyone on the Web is doubting.

    A possibility may be in the climax of Daniel 11:41 if in fact Bethel is "King North" accessible" now, from within (2Thess2:3-4, Dan11:32a) for a climax corporate seizure event in the future. (to shut down the JW ministry) Obviously the USSR cannot be King North and fulfill Daniel 11:36. From Daniel 11:45 logic there can only be one final rival sovereign into which all of them converge. (So Bethel is diverting prophecy that could be easily rectified for the 8th King climax sovereignty and its last stage of development since after the Cold War, for this speculation, marked at Daniel 11:29.)

    That would make Luke 21:20 an event and period that will become globally notable as Daniel 11:41 climaxes its meaning in the future, upon the JW organization. The "disgusting thing" is then already "standing" inside Bethel (Dan11:32a, Matt24:15), it is just for now well concealed "in the temple" (few "see" it, 2Thess2:1-4); BUT it will get far worse in time in this speculation.

    But it answers why Bethel is engaged in not just active apostasy, but active regular cover up of 8th King prophecy. (Plus it is not beyond Satan (2Cor11:13-15) and globalist intel to have infiltrated Bethel, it is a billion dollar mark as well, and JWs are not the most vigilant guards, but are gullible and naive to those "claiming to be apostles". Most JWs do not do Revelation 2:2, they bought the apostasy, so accessing Bethel from within is possible, hence Daniel 11:41 covered up with USSR fiction. Daniel 8:12 is also a clear subversion prophecy also under fictional cover from Bethel)

    =In time, as many are now agreeing, a judgment (1Pet4:17) and purification (Zech3:4-5) and recovery (Zech3:6-8) is what comes from that initial "trampling" of Bethel, in this speculation, the one from Daniel 8:13, imo, also yet to fulfill, covered up by an impossible Bethel fiction at present. In this speculation Daniel 8:13-14 is a future event.
    =

    That coming judgment (1Pet4:17) and recovery leads to a cleansed final warning (Rev10-11) that has to fully deploy for that final 1260 days of final warning. Now that is a key point in this speculation, for it is an implied completion. "3.5 times" is incomplete, it needs to be "7 times".

    =
    That required completion of full "7" would bring us to the final part of the "until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled" requirement and parallel being fulfilled while JW ministry is being "trampled": the "1260 days" final warning transpires, AGAIN (Rev10:11), to the full, it is "fulfilled" in this Revelation 11:2-3, Daniel 12:7 symbol of a timed, final warning, period, when that ministry completes. The "holy city" is "trampled" to completion in that process and the "appointed times are fulfiled". (Rev11:7)

    And because "the holy city will be trampled" (Rev11:2) in final form, and "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy 1260 days" (Rev11:3), it will by then have been been TWO complete Kingdom witnessings (2w) of final warning completed; including the first JW ministry of 1914-1918 warning initial 1260 days.

    2w x 1260 is 2520 days (sound familiar?) and 2w x 3.5 times is "seven times" fulfilled as full "appointed times" as final warning in that, then completed, 2520 day final warning "last days" totality of "appointed time". Thus in the end, the whole 2520 days "seven times" was the final warning extension period since the first JW ministry (1914-1918; 1260 days past +1260 days future), if we respect the basic meanings in the original JW ministry, it just repeated as per Revelation 10:11, for a full final warning of 2520 days, seven times in days, amidst notable "holy city" "trampling" events. It finished off the full warning of 2520 years ending in 1914.


    "Until" that completes, the end will not come, the context will provide the final warning evidence.

    (And this is why the anti-1914 Web campaign is so persistent with the Bethel apostasy. They want to obscure the real meaning of that final cycle of the future as long as possible, when it just repeats the first cycle; hence TWO "witnessings" of final warning are eventually given "then the end will come". (Matt24:14) Everything will be complete. (Rev10:5-11))

    Just a speculation.

    Regards
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2015
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    I have to agree.

    I will explain it in black and white for you Joshuastone. Clear as a whistle, and because it's the truth, a whole lot simpler than your cockamamie answer. Seriously what is your agenda on here? Don't answer because I truly won't believe you anyway.

    You say that Mt 24:21 which speaks of the great tribulation is a different tribulation than that at v.29. You say that v.29 is the tribulation being spoken of in v:9.

    ___


    Here is the simple answer.

    Mark also speaks of the great tribulation. In fact he only used the word twice in his description of the event. The first one is where he says at Mark 13:19 “. . .for those days will be [days of] a tribulation such as has not occurred from [the] beginning of the creation which God created until that time, and will not occur again. â€￾

    Obviously he is speaking of the great tribulation which Matthew also spoke about using pretty much the same description.

    The next time Mark talks about a tribulation is at Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,â€￾

    Notice "that tribulation". What tribulation is he speaking of?

    Since he only used the word one other time in reference to the Great Tribulation then it is quite clear he is speaking of the tribulation he just mentioned in v.19. THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!

    The same goes for Matthew

    ___
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Cristo,

    It's not because you think that Josh is wrong that it gives you the right to be unpleasant. Like everyone else here, he's got good motives, loves Jehovah and his neighbor and is looking for the truth, even if the paths he chose to do so aren't the same as ours. What matters is that we meet up with him at some crossroads one day.

    Please, calm down.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No need to get nasty, the reason I'm here is to understand truth, and we should keep in mind that's what we are trying to help each other find. What you will understand about me is I don't care anything about being right, and my witness is Utuna, he knows this, all I care about is the actual facts of what each scripture is meant by Jehovah. What is also true is I want to find out if I'm wrong about something, that means I'm only that much closer to Jehovah and the truth.

    So with that said;

    I admit that you and Utuna appear to be correct as it pertains to the events after the disgusting thing. It appears that both in Mathew and Mark the events after the tribulation are speaking of after the disgusting thing is placed.

    It appears my mistake was in Rev here;

    Rev 6:14b "and every mountain and every island was removed from its place."

    Rev 16:20 "Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found."

    I believed these two scriptures were the same event, and so I had the 7th trumpet, 7th bowl and first 6 seals all occurring on the same day, the end of the 1260 days when Jesus is enthroned, and that's 30 days before the disgusting thing is placed but, if you think about it, that actually is 8 things and not 7. I believe they are the seven thunders but, it would appear the actuall 7 are the 7th trumpet, 7th bowl and first 5 seals, the 6th seal must be opened after the disgusting thing is placed and not the same day as the others. It would appear that the islands and mountains are only dethroned in Rev 16:20 because Jesus is enthroned and in Rev 6:14 those nations are physically destroyed.

    Give me a little bit to wrap my head around it all, it takes a minute to completely understand all of the remaining pieces after an adjustment.

    You see, I don't care anything about being right, I want to know the truth, and that is what I pray to Jehovah every day. I ask him if I am wrong to please help me find it, no matter what that may mean. I may debate every possible angle such as this thread before I have exhausted every possibility and there is only the fact remaining, but I only want the truth...

    Edit: This post was being written without knowing about Utuna's last post which was placed minutes before.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    The GT will take place when Christ's disciples are given the opportunity to flee Jerusalem. Jesus exhorted his followers to pray that their flight may not happen during winter time or sabbath because it's going to be a GT... That's a statement of the obvious but it means that the GT can't start much later than at this moment. As I said previously, the sole time window the "Jews" had to flee was between 66CE and 70 CE, which means that Mat. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 talk about 66CE, or shortly after, and not about 70CE and onward, otherwise the Christians were doomed to die in Jerusalem. It's obvious too that the GT is mainly connected to the fall of Jerusalem and to their exile among the nations, which exile will come to an end when Jesus comes and have them gathered by his angels.

    I'm not sure that you have grasped that what I'm saying and that which I explained in previous posts on this thread disprove your theories and whole chronology. The appointed time of the nations starts at the fall of Jerusalem, when it's trampled on and this fact invalidates your chronology.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Of that you have never been more wrong. I was still planning to reply to you about this subject but was working on something else, I'm still coming to that, but you couldn't be more wrong.

    I believe the appointed time of the nation's start when Jerusalem falls, and is trampled on, just like you.

    It's late here...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Then, the disgusting thing standing in a holy place as recorded in Mark and Matthew corresponds to the fall of Jerusalem as proved by Luke's account, which means that Jesus connected them both as being the same event.

    Bonne nuit !
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    What is interesting is that Luke only talks about the Roman armies, whereas Matthew and Mark, I guess, repeat Jesus' prophecy word for word (mention of the prophet Daniel, etc). Therefore, either Jesus uttered it all both ways and some accounts chose one "version" only over the other one or, (my preference goes to the following), Luke's account directly mentions the commonly accepted interpretation of Jesus' words recorded otherwise word for word in Matthew and Mark.
    It would then mean that the disgusting thing is either the Roman armies (pagan nation, lawless people unclean by nature) or that which they were about to do to Jerusalem, that is desecration through their presence or the presence of their idols and sacrifices to them in a holy place. Knowing that Jesus was talking about the Roman armies sums it all up, somehow.
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Proverbs 27:17 - "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens the face of another."

    Not everyone interprets the Scriptures in the same way on the discussion board. They have different viewpoints. The discussion board provides an opportunity for people to discuss their various interpretations and the scriptures and supporting explanations that go with that. By laying this information out so that others may read also, this allows readers to check their references and do research. It's how people verify that they understand the Scriptures in a correct manner.

    It should be possible to present an argument, along with facts and scriptures, without having to rely on nastiness in order to get a point of view across.

    Wallflower
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    First off, the time frame mentioned in Dan 12:11 is the time between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing placed. The sooner you except that the sooner you will sleep at night, the sooner you will understand prophecy and the sooner I can see you as a man that will admit when he is wrong as well... ;)

    When discussing this subject there is something we must keep in mind, Jehovah had to give warnings to two groups of people 2000 years apart. Now both events would not be exactly the same, but none the less, they are extremely similar. One of the most obvious differences is the fact that in 66-70CE Jerusalem was in one single location, while the temple today is worldwide. So, then that will make a differences as to what is mentioned of "surrounding and standing in a holy place".

    Do you know what sparked the Jewish war?

    "Outbreak of the rebellion

    Main article: Jerusalem riots of 66

    See also: Zealotry

    According to Josephus, the violence which began at Caesarea in 66 was provoked by Greeks of a certain merchant house sacrificing birds in front of a local synagogue.[18] The Roman garrison did not intervene and the long-standing Hellenistic and Jewish religious tensions took a downward spiral. In reaction, one of the Jewish Temple clerks Eliezar ben Hanania ceased prayers and sacrifices for the Roman Emperor at the Temple.

    Eliezar ben Hanania (Hebrew: אלעזר בן חנניה‎; Ancient Greek: Ἐλεάζαρος υἱὸς Ἀνανία) was a Jewish leader during the Great Revolt of Judea. Eliazar was the son of the High Priest Hanania ben Nedebai and hence a political figure of the 1st century Judaea Province. Eliazar was the governor of the temple [1] at the outbreak of the rebellion in 66 CE and following the initial outbreak of the violence in Jerusalem convinced the priests of the Jewish Temple to stop service of sacrifice for the Emperor. The action, though largely symbolic, was one of the main milestones to bring a full-scale rebellion in Judea."

    Once Eliezar ben Hanania stopped the sacrifices for the Roman Emperor and people, Rome was not happy and that's when they surrounded the city.

    It's at this point we should make very clear the words we are using. There is a very big difference between surrounding something and standing on something. It's quite obvious that Jerusalem was surrounded in 66CE, now can it be said they stood in a Holy Place at that time? No way! They did not stand in a Holy Place until 70CE. Outside the walls of Jerusalem was not considered the Holy Place! So that first off should be very clear. As well I have presented a major sacrifice that was stopped in 66CE and in fact sparked the Jewish War, so everyone in Jerusalem would have known about it. They would have known the temple was no longer offering sacrifices for the Roman Emperor and Roman people (constant feature).

    As you mention, Luke clearly discusses the moment Jerusalem is surrounded, giving enough warning to those in Jerusalem that "the destruction of her was near". (Luk 21:20) Now, this cannot be the moment that Rome entered the city for a number of reasons, first off everyone knows Jerusalem was circled in 66CE, second the scripture says "the destruction of her was near", that meant not yet, but coming. So the moment Jerusalem is surrounded is NOT the moment the Jews are killed but that the deaths/destruction "was near". Third, as you have mentioned it would have been to late for them in the city to give the warning when Rome entered the city in 70CE. So therefore both the surrounding and the disgusting thing being placed cannot be both in 70CE. As well there is no way around the fact that the city was surrounded in 66CE, but in no way can it be said that the disgusting thing was standing in a Holy Place in 66CE, the Holy Place was not outside the walls, it was in the temple! Therefore just as Dan 12:11 tells us, these two events are not the same at all. They are in fact just as it says 1290 days apart.

    Now back to the differences between 66-70CE and 2000 years later in our day. You and I agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are the temple today, so since we are worldwide we can't be surrounded in the way Jerusalem was, but today we have TV. So we will be able to see worldwide when the nations come against the WTS. So, what we would want to know is what would the constant feature being removed today be. In 66CE it was the sacrifices for the Roman Emperor and Roman people that were stopped that sparked the Jewish war and their captivity into the nations. Today the sacrifices to Rome is the WTS magazines itself that sends out knowledge of Jehovah's kingdom to the world, (sacrifeses to the Romans). If in our day news reports about something the WTS is doing wrong came out, and then the WTS is brought down, that would be the end of the magazines and the start of Jehovah's people into captivity when the WTS is no more. This is a little different from 66-70CE, but in the end they aren't that different because it's not until the temple is rebuilt is it really considered "the true temple". The WTS today is just a facsimile, Christs brothers are the true temple.

    We know all throughout scripture there are two attacks on Jerusalem. We know the first is when they go into captivity when the constant feature is removed (Jerusalem surrounded), and the WTS going down starts the gentile times of 1260 days (appointed time of the nations). We know this is the case because the two witnesses are dressed in sackloth, but I am telling you hear and now this event is not the disgusting thing standing in a Holy Place, that is when Gods people are physically killed. As we know in the Jewish war, that did not happen until 1290 days after Jerusalem was surrounded when in 70CE Rome entered the temple and killed a million Jews. In the time of the end there is a call to rebuild Jerusalem and Gods people start to come back to him, this is the second temple and regathering that is talked about from Joel to Malachi. The regathering is not what has been going on in the last 100 years, the regathering will occur when Christs brothers will be dressed in sackloth because of the loss of the earthly representation of Jehovah's temple on the earth, the WTS.

    Now, we know the two witnesses end their witnessing when Jesus is enthroned and Jerusalem is reestablished at the end of the 1260 days, so we now would have a temple again, and this time the true temple, the true Jerusalem. It's after that, that the disgusting thing actually enters the temple to kill Gods people. This would be worldwide in our day and the TV gives ample time to flee since Gods people aren't all in one location. This is when the world tries to cut their bands from Jehovah and it's like touching his eyeball and Armageddon begins. Both in 66-70CE and in our day the 1290 days timetable is there in order for them and us to know when death was coming, and to flee before that timetable ended! Both cases are the same, to expect death at the end of the 1290 days. That is the chief understanding back then and our day, that something will start the 1290 day clock (constant feature being removed), and then when that clock stops there will be death (disgusting thing placed).

    All throughout scripture there are two attacks, I'm sitting here wondering which I should post because there are so many. All of scripture and prophecy backs up the fact that there are two attacks, one when Jerusalem is surrounded and Gods people go into exile, and the second when the disgusting thing stands in a Holy Place to actually kill as many as they can find.

    So why does Luke discuss the surrounding while Math and Mar discuss the disgusting thing? Again it comes down to warning Christs brothers in the first century and in the time of the end. The point is when you see Jerusalem surrounded to know that death is coming in 1290 days, 2000 years ago, and today. Luke is clearly talking about the appointed times of the nations, Luke says in verse 23; "For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people." So he talks about distress on Gods people, those who follow him during the time of their captivity, and so does Mathew and Mark when discussing the tribulation, but Math and Mar discuss a GT which comes on the whole world, and that is only discussed in connection to the disgusting thing being placed. Luke doesn't talk about the GT, only the tribulation on Gods people. Luke as well appears to be an overview of the time including the start of the 1290 days all the way after the disgusting thing is placed (even though he doesn't mention it). Just because Luke doesn't mention the disgusting thing standing in a Holy Place does not mean it is the same thing as Jerusalem being surrounded, because we know this is not the case. Luke is clearly mentioning only what was not mentioned in Math and Mark, the beginning of the 1290 days. Without Luke Christs brothers would have probably waited until 70CE to flee, but this was added so they knew to flee as soon as they saw Jerusalem was surrounded, although they should have already known from Dan 12:11 and when Eliezar stopped the sacrifices in 66CE that 1290 days later Rome would enter the temple to kill them. Math and Mar more clearly are geared to discussing the GT in the end but the point remains for both time tables, flee before the end of the 1290 days or you will be killed.

    Think about this, how are Gods people to flee into the mountains when the WTS goes down? It clearly says they are to go into captivity. Do the two witnesses flee? No, they keep on preaching like Daniel did in a foreign land in sackloth (a sign of mourning). As I said, I could add many more scriptures to my post here, but you will find that all of scripture will support this chronology, let's list a couple;

    Rev 11:1,2 discusses the beginning of the 1290 days; "And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months." This is the appointed times of the nations when Gods people will be in captivity and Jerusalem surrounded. This is not the moment that Gods people will be physically killed, as we should understand completely. That happened after the 1290 days from 66-70CE and will happen after 1290 days from the WTS going down until Jerusalem being reestablished in the time of the end. Keep in mind, even the two witnesses are not killed by the 8th king until after the 1260 days that Jerusalem was surrounded.

    We also have the end of the 11th chapter of Daniel 32-45. we see Jerusalem going into captivity in the "time of the end", and it's not till verse 45 that the disgusting thing is placed, after they had entered the land of Decoration in verse 41 (Jerusalem surrounded); "He will also enter into the land of the Decoration,"

    Just because I admit one little adjustment in chronology such as when the stars fall from heaven occurring before or after the disgusting thing is placed has nothing to do with the chronology as a whole. I want to be known for someone who thoroughly searches scriptures to see if these things are so and then admit when I am wrong, I believe this is a sign of strength, not weakness as the world would have it. If I've missed a spot of paint on the wall, by all means point it out, but I doubt the entire building will collapse, and if it does, all the better, I by no means want to be right, I only want to know the truth, and to serve Jehovah in the way he wants me to in faith and truth. With that said, the days in between the major events from Daniel that I have presented I stand by as Biblical fact and until such time as Jehovah sees it fit to correct me (by what ever means), we will (I hope) continue to help each other to come to a clearer picture of truth, whom ever may be right on any given subject. This is the reason why we are here.


    {2300 Starts} Watchtower News Reports: Rosh Hashanah
    |
    {965 Days Pass}
    |
    {1260, 1290, 1335 Starts} Watchtower Goes Down:
    |
    {777 Days Pass}
    |
    {1742nd Day} Call to Rebuild Jerusalem:
    |
    {108 Days Pass}
    |
    {1850th Day} Anglo-America Collapses: Sukkot
    |
    {375 Days Pass}
    |
    {1260 Ends} Jesus Enthroned: Yom Kippur
    |
    {30 Days Pass}
    |
    {1290 Ends} Disgusting Thing Placed:
    |
    {45 Days Pass}
    |
    {2300[SUP]th[/SUP], 1335[SUP]th [/SUP]Day} New World: Hanukkah
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    :p

    [video=youtube;hjwI9Oz0yl0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hjwI9Oz0yl0&list =PLA336700916DA0783[/video]
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    :p

    The whole point is, the Holy Place was not outside the walls, and it's not even within the courtyard, it's in the temple itself. Even you should be able to agree with that... ;)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Wrong answer.... :p

    [​IMG]
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Are you saying you don't know where the Holy Place was in Jerusalem?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Which means that Jesus' words in Matthew and Mark refered to 66CE, or in a broader sense, refered to Jerusalem being threatened by a pagan army. As I said, Jesus couldn't have meant 70CE, otherwise it would have been too late for the disciples to flee. If Jesus meant 70CE and the temple, then his words don't make sense at all. He won't tell his disciples to flee at a given moment whereas Jerusalem will then be already besieged and a bloody battlefield with about 1 million of people dead in the streets. However, the Holy Place may mean something else or broader than the temple, especially if we keep in mind that his words were meant to have fulfillments on a larger scale in the time of the end. I'm sorry but you look for details and it makes you miss the real points.

    I knew you would say so to make it fit your scenario. So, how could Jesus' words mean something in two letters and something totally different in a third one ? The Gospels report Jesus' words, which means that what he meant remains the same, even though it's said differently. We can't say that he meant 70CE here and 66CE there. It's either the first or the second, unless it means a situation that encompasses both dates. The most logical reason for Luke's account to be different is because it's an interpretation.

    Nope ! Luke says that the appointed times of the nations start when Jerusalem is trampled on and her population killed, which happened only in 70CE. The appointed times of the nations started at the fall of Jerusalem. Jerusalem didn't fall in 66CE.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Obviously, there are interesting details and much food for thoughts in your scenario and I agree with many points that you make.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You have several paradoxes in your thinking. If you think in Luke 21 the appointed times are after 70CE but you think the surrounding of Jerusalem, and the disgusting thing was placed in 66CE, then right there in your own thinking you have a paradox. I will explain why...

    Again, you say the appointed times began at 70CE but everything else began in 66CE??? The appointed times of the nations (according to Luke) occur after Jerusalem was surrounded, and wasn't Jerusalem surrounded in 66CE? So therefore that started the appointed times of the nations. Are you telling me I'm suppose to see a 3.5 year gap between Luke 21:20 and 24? That is not what it says, it clearly says the appointed times of the nations would occur right after Jerusalem was surrounded.

    Now tell my Utuna, when was Jerusalem surrounded? Of course 66CE, (as you've said) so now tell me, where is the Holy Place? If we want the Bible to explain itself (as we do always) where does the Bible and Jehovah say the Holy Place is, in the temple itself right? Can it be considered the courtyard, or outside the walls of Jerusalem?

    Look: Rev 11:1,2 "And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

    This scripture right there tells you there is a difference between the temple and outside it, and also what is trampled on during the appointed times of the nations from Luke. It's not the temple that's trampled on. Even if we don't bring up the Holy Place at all, it says the temple itself is left untouched during the times of the nations. So therefore it is not destroyed or removed or touched during this time. So tell me, what is trampled for 42 months? Is it the temple where the Holy Place is, and the alter? (After all that is where it is right?) No, it's the courtyard outside the temple that is trampled on and that is the appointed time of the nations.

    This is what I have been trying to tell you all along. Dan 12:11 is the time frame between the two events. The constant feature was removed in 66CE and the disgusting thing stood in a Holy Place when it entered the temple in 70CE. The warning was to flee during that time frame, or else you would not know when to flee the destruction, which also means the destruction did not come in 66CE, in any form.

    Captivity into the nations is not their destruction, those are two different things. When the Jews were taken to Babylon into captivity, is it said that was their destruction, or captivity? When a million Jews died in 70CE, is it said that, that was their captivity, or their destruction?

    As you read prophecy think about this fact, you will see that Gods people are said to go into captivity, then there is a call to rebuild, and after they rebuild Gog comes against Jerusalem when Jehovah will sanctify his name, but this is only after Gods people go into captivity, then the call to rebuild, which then happens and then the final battle. This is the theme throughout prophecy and is the correct understanding.

    He clearly told them in Luke to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded, that along with Dan 12:11 was enough to know exactly when Rome would enter the city. The point is they had time to flee, because of having time from the moment they were surrounded to the point they were destroyed. That is the whole point of Luke's comment "her destruction is near", near not now.

    What your not thinking about is the end time fulfillment. Since in the end you can't surround the temple of today because we are worldwide, you have the constant feature mentioned. (What is the constant feature in your scenario by the way? If you think this happened in 66CE what was the constant feature that was removed?) Anyway, in the time of the end you have a surrounding and captivity in the form of the WTS no longer existing. Now you will also have a moment when the 8th king will come to try and destroy Gods people, and that is the disgusting thing that is placed. This is so those in the time of the end could recognize this prophecy comparison between 66-70CE in the end times in order to flee at the end after Jesus is enthroned and Jerusalem reestablished and to know the day they would be attacked. This is why it's written the way it is. Gods people have to go into captivity first in the time of the end, before they are attacked.

    This is the reason you think Joel is talking about the end of the 1000 years, because you haven't noticed there are two attacks in the time of the end, and in 66-70CE as well. The moment they are surrounded in 66CE (Eliezar ben Hanania), and the moment the WTS goes down in the end is the constant feature being removed, then in both times that started their captivity into the world and the start of the appointed times (Rev 11:1,2), and then in both cases they are attacked 1290 days later physically, Jerusalem back then was destroyed for their errors, and in the time of the end they will be saved because they come out of captivity into the new Jerusalem made clean in the blood of the lamb.

    That is the big picture...

    Brother, when will you recognize where the Holy Place was? Come on, this is a very simple and basic subject that doesn't really need extensive study to determine. If you don't except it from the OT and the creation of the temple, then reread Rev 11:1,2...

    Really? So all of Revelation should be speaking of one single moment? In fact everything that Mathew and Mark say happens all on one day? Just because one writer mentions some events but not others means they are all the same? Why don't Math and Mar mention the appointed times of the nations? Why doesn't Luke mention the false prophets the other books mention to look out for?

    Are you telling me that one book can't mention one event in the time of the end while the others may not? Is that your argument that that he wouldn't have said something different in one book to another? That clearly is not the case, there more examples then just this that we have differn't books talking about the same event but offering different accounts and different prospective, even including some event while leaving others out. Is this not exactly what happens in the first four books of the NT? Such as one book mentions Judas hanging himself, while another mentions the rope breaks and he falls. Are they not both correct? Of course they are.

    That argument is moot, and irreverent. Dan 12:11 is a time table between the two events.

    As well you yourself claim that the appointed times in Luke 21:24 is in 70, but that four verses before this the surrounding was in 66CE. :confused:

    Brother, the trampling occurred before the temple was destroyed, look again at Rev 11:1,2, the temple is still intact during this;

    Rev 11:1,2 "And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

    Again you have everything in Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 all happening in 66CE except one little thing, the actual destruction! Do you not see the paradox in your thinking? You are saying all of prophecy says Jerusalem destruction was in 66CE but wasn't destroyed until 70CE. You say the appointed times of the nations in Luke are in 70CE but that the surrounding it mentions just a few sentences before happened in 66CE, but Rev says the temple is still intact during the trampling.

    Brother, I hope you consider what I have presented here closely. This is a great opportunity to come to a better understanding as a whole.

    As always may Jehovah's Holy Spirit be here with us and his truth in our understanding...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Luke 21:24 (NIV)
    "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

    When did that happen ? 66CE or 70CE ? When was Jerusalem trampled on ?

    Ya right !

    Rev 11:1-2 (CJB)
    "I was given a measuring rod like a stick and told, “Get up, and measure the Temple of God and the altar, and count how many people are worshipping there! But the court outside the Temple, leave that out; don’t measure it; because it has been given to the Goyim, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months."

    Both the Gospels and Rev talk about Jerusalem as a holy place.

    They may tell things differently but will never contradict themselves. Regarding Judas, there aren't contradictions between both accounts.

    I don't see why that argument is irreverent...

    Luke 21:20 (NIV)
    "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near."

    Red = 66CE
    Blue = 70CE

    Desolation = destruction => 70CE => Luke 21:24 (NIV) : "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles..."

    I never said that.

    Interestingly, neither the Gospels (expressly) or Rv say that it is the temple that is destroyed... You/We just infer it from history and other biblical books.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This discussion is going nowhere. We don't understand each other's reasoning and we're merely wasting time debating over trivial things because of misunderstandings. I give up.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    When are you saying the 42 months are?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Here's what I don't understand. You say this above that Luke 21:20 is saying the surrounding is the disgusting thing in Math and Mar, but Math and Mark clearly say after that tribulation the starts fall and the chosen ones are gathered, and I assume you say that's when Jerusalem is destroyed, then when are the 42 months? In the time of the end are you saying that the 42 months begin in the new world? There are no nations then. Are you saying Jerusalem in the time of the end is destroyed in the beginning unlike in 66-70?

    Please define...
     

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