Tribulation VS Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jan 1, 2015.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure that is the case, it would seem Jesus clearly says the temple would be destroyed.

    Mth 24:1,2 "Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down."

    So with that said, it's seems clear that Rev 11:1,2 is speaking of a time before the temple is destroyed during the appointed times of the nations, and Jesus is speaking of the the stones not being left upon a stone when the disgusting thing is placed.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Yes, Jesus talks in Mat. 24:1,2 about the temple being doomed and destined to be destroyed (John 2:19; Mat.27:40). I don't disagree with that point. It seems to go without saying that the spiritual temple is doomed too because of the unfaithfulness and wickedness of those who make it up. What I'm saying is just that the NT prophecies, which might be worded so that the interpretation of them may be twofold, don't mention the temple but the "holy city" or a "holy place" only, which might happen be the same.

    Robert said : Just as the literal temple in Jerusalem came in line for Heaven’s inspection, God also will inspect the spiritual temple at the conclusion of the system of things. Actually, the apostle Peter indicated that all the prospective temple stones are continually under God’s judgment. (Chapter 4; The Judgment)

    Once the inspection is done and the weed-like people are kicked out, the former spiritual temple destroyed by Jehovah won't be the temple anymore, just like the temple of Jerusalem wasn't the temple anymore when it was destroyed. I'll make research into it later whenever I have the time for it.

    PS: I said in a previous post on this thread that the Great Tribulation would be as such mainly because of the sufferings undergone by the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I said this obviously without forgetting that the great tribulation would also have worldwide consequences and would wreck havoc all over the globe.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So my point with Rev 11:1,2 was that it says the temple remains intact while the courtyard is trampled on for 1260 days, and Jesus clearly says the temple would be destroyed when the disgusting thing was placed, so why the discrepancy if one imagines the surrounding of Jerusalem for 1260 days is the same event as the disgusting thing being placed.

    Jesus says the temple would be destroyed when the disgusting thing was placed, however Rev says the temple will remain intact while the city is surrounded for 42 months, explain...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    We were having this discussion in the thread No One Knows The Day Or Hour but I wanted to present the corrected timeline of the Tribulation vs Great Tribulation here in this thread, and to also share something I had discovered last night in scripture.

    After correcting the timeline for the start of the GT, that period of time will last 10 days, and that just so happens to be the period of time Jesus told the church of Smyrna they would suffer tribulation; "Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Rev 2:10)

    It would also appear that these 7 churches are those that will be after the 1260 days end and Jesus is enthroned, so basically they are part of the new Jerusalem.


    [​IMG]
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Any chance you can cite the scriptures that bring you to the graphic J? Or maybe provide a rundown of how you arrived at the graphic?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What you ask encompasses the entire bible, all of prophecy and years of work. The chart is simply the E=MC2 of the entire Bible, a short equation to make prophecy linear, but I will include here a few points below.

    The best place to start is Daniel 12:11, here we find two events separated by a period of time. “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.†The constant feature is removed, and then one thousand two hundred and ninety days later the disgusting thing is placed.

    The next verse explains itself quiet well, Dan 12:12: “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days!†This depicts those who reach the first day of the paradise new earth.

    There is also another time period mentioned in the twelfth chapter of Daniel 12:7, and that is of the: “appointed time, appointed times and a half.†We know from comparing Revelation 12:14 and 12:6 that this time period equals one thousand two hundred and sixty days. As well we read at Rev 11:3: “And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.†So the beginning of the time table in the twelfth chapter of Daniel starts with the constant feature being removed. Then twelve hundred sixty days later that time period ends. We know from Dan 12:11 that thirty days later, the twelve hundred ninety day time table ends, then forty five days after that the thirteen hundred and thirty fifth day comes in.

    Now let’s take a look at Daniel 8:13, 14 where we read: “And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: “How long will the vision be of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?†So he said to me: “Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition.†Here we find a complete explanation of the period spanning the time of the end, from the first sight of transgression from the Watchtower Society; “Jehovah’s earthly representation of his organization.†to the constant feature being removed in the form of the societies downfall, all the way to ushering in the new world! The time between the first news reports of wrong doing, and the new world is ushered in will be two thousand three hundred days. (Dan 11:30b, 12:12)

    So these events tie right back to Daniel chapter twelve, where we can count back from the thirteen hundred thirty fifth day of verse twelve and the holy place being brought into its right condition, all the way back two thousand three hundred days to the start of the time of the end and the vision of the constant feature intact alongside transgression causing its desolation.

    Below is a collection of scriptures that discuss the chronology. Red is commentary from myself...

    Dan 8:9-11 "Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down."

    Dan 8:13,14 "And I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one speaking: “How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue, (He is asking about transgression while the constant feature is still intact.) to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?†(This is discussed in verses 9-11 above) So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition. (the holy place is outside the most holy and is the new world here on earth)â€"

    Dan 12:7"Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.â€"

    Rev 12:14 "But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent."

    Rev 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days."

    Therefore the appointed times in Dan 12 are speaking of this period of 1260 days.

    The next time mentioned are the 1290 days, and are just a continuation of the 1260 days mentioned just before. As well, we know that both the 1260 days and the 1290 days begin with the constant feature being removed.

    Dan 12:11 "“And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

    The time period mentioned in this scripture above at Dan 12:11 is the time between the two events. It is the time period between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed. So therefore the 1290 days end 30 days after the 1260 days. So therefore the disgusting thing is placed 30 days after the 1260 days are over.

    Then we have the scripture discussing the first day of the new world at Dan 12 and the moment the holy place is brought into its right condition from Dan 8:14. So therefore we have two times that we know end at the same moment, that of the 2300 days and the 1335 days. Since we know the 1290 days started the same moment the 1260 days start, it's obvious that in the very next scripture at Dan 12:12 that the 1335 days are just a continuation of the 1260, 1290 and ends 45 days after the 1290 and 75 days after the 1260.

    Rev 12:12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!"

    The other events in the timeline I will just briefly touch base on because if I were to explain every single moment in the timeline I would be writing all day, so if you have a specific question I will address it more thoroughly.

    The call to rebuild Jerusalem is from the 70 weeks of Dan 9.

    Anglo-America going down and the 8th king being set up can be found in the time frame from Dan 7:11,12 “I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season."

    Then of course you have all the details of when Christ is enthroned, when the MOL is revealed, the two witnesses beginning their preaching in sackloth, resurrection, and on and on...

    Again I'm just breezing through this post because as I said the timelines that I present are based on scripture as a whole, every prophecy, every scripture in the Bible.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Thanks Joshua that is perfect.

    Yeah, I understand, it takes the whole Bible .. but for the most part, the 2300 days, etc, which helped you produce the chart are only in a few places.

    I'll dig in tomorrow!
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No problem, and if I can clarify my understanding of the 2300 days feel free to ask, because I could never be too precise, when I write a post I try and keep it as short and sweet as possible, but of course one could dig into a single scripture all the way down to its original text, but anyway just a quick overview;

    I believe the angels answer to Daniel about the evenings and mornings was to connect the vision to Dan 12:12 and the first day of the new world, so that means both time periods end on the same day. As well we see Dan 8:9-13 is speaking of a time before the constant feature is removed when there will be visual evidence of transgression in the congregation before the constant feature is removed, and then it goes on to discuss that moment.

    Horn=The entity that will become the 8th king
    Decoration=Gods people/Temple/Spiritual Jerusalem
    Army of heaven/Stars=Anointed still under the WTS umbrella
    Prince of the army=Jesus
    Constant feature=Watchtower
    Transgression=Unknown yet

    What sets off the beginning day of the 2300 days is found in the chronology of Dan 11 and lies in the king of the north hurling denunciations at Dan 11:30 and this corresponds to the small horn exalting itself over the prince of the army, and transgression coming to light. You will notice the army and stars that the small horn causes to fall are also discussed at Dan 11:32, which is also the apostasy that must come first that we find in 2Th 2. Of course a complete study of Dan 11:1-29 is needed before determining the exact prophecy yet to be fulfilled in time, but I will say I agree with Robert up until verse 30, he misunderstands the hurling of denunciations and relegates it to meaningless hearsay such as the WT does on almost all prophecy, but I dont hold that against him for even Robert said not to long ago, chronology and prophecy is not really his gig, there were others like myself out here that picked up his work where he skewed. It simply just wasn't his work, his work is Ezekiel, he's a Watchman calling out in the wilderness, he's not however one of the prophets.

    What he and most people have missed (and even refuse to except) is that Dan 12:11 is speaking of the time frame between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing placed. There is 1290 days between these two events, and until one is willing to except that understanding and look at prophecy with that in mind they will never get it...
     

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