Two Witnesses...

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 17, 2013.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Meant simply, "Our current understanding in the realms of our discussion on this post."

    Yes, we have had this discussion many times over the years, and here I thought I had convinced you by now with the facts of the matter... :p

    BTW, I should have said, "capstone of all prophecy on one piece of paper" not "all scripture".

    So I guess I'll take that "no comment" as a complete acceptance and agreement with everything I said! lol... :cool:
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I could discuss Joshua and Zerubbabel representing two individuals again here, but it would appear that the majority of us recognize that they are two separate individuals separate from the group of anointed themselves. So, I will move on for one can simply scroll pack in this thread and read the posts on why scripture describes two anointed separate from the bride class. This thread contains that information.

    Here is the ultimate point, if the third and fourth chapters of Zechariah are to only represent that of the two witnesses having Jehovah's favor, why would Jehovah had even bothered recording these two chapters in such detail in the first place? These two chapters are prophecies of events, not a metaphor of that which is already a given, and we are going to ask some questions that will point this out in greater detail.

    Joshua in chapter 3 is depicted as a priest of Jehovah, which of course means he was already anointed. Then it depicts him as being in defiled clothing. Now how can this represent the entire class of anointed if this clearly shows that Joshua had sinned, and in no way is this Jesus because we have pointed out in Zech 6 that Joshua and the Sprout are spoken of as separate. Also if you try to imply that this just represents some collective sin of mankind you are implying into this scripture a personal theory. It quite simply says that Joshua's anointed clothing had been soiled.

    Then we see his sins forgiven him and his clothing refreshed. Now, he had been anointed, so this isn't a moment when Jehovah chooses a class of people for himself, he had been chosen earlier. How can one explain this as a collection of people without putting your own spin on it. It states itself very clearly, "Joshua" sinned, then forgiven. If both Zerubbabel and Joshua represent a collection of individuals, why is not Zerubbabel mentioned in this chapter? Why is his clothing not defiled?

    Now, once the stone was placed before Joshua, it's at that time engraved. Now this is well after he was anointed, had sinned, then forgiven. This engraving can not represent something that had already taken place, besides if one applies the same meaning to every occurrence in the bible you could come to the conclusion that every single story in the bible is a metaphor for Jehovah's people having his favor. Brushing off prophecy as simply a lesson in serving Jehovah is an old Christiandom trick to blind the people from the truth.

    Brother SingleCell and Utuna, you have explained elegantly how Zechariah would have perceived the visions in these two chapters, however we know today that they have a fulfillment in the time of the end, that's why they were recorded for us. Were these two chapters recorded to tell us the anointed have Jehovah's favor? Really?

    Chapter 4 shows in extreme detail Zerubbabels use of the stone that was placed before Joshua. It says in 4:7 that Zerubbabel is speaking against the "mountain". Is this not the Holy mountain? Of course it is. So again, if it is the stone itself that represents favor from Jehovah, why is Zerubbabel seen bringing it out to shouts of "How wonderful" at the destruction of the holy mountain? It is the stone itself that is seen from Jehovah as it's content comes to fruition. This is what shows itself as being "engraved" by Jehovah. It's the stone engraved, not some anointing of an already anointed, then anointed again.

    Then of course you have the description of the two as the olive trees and lampstand that is paralleled in Revelation 11, showing obviously these two are the two in the time of the end.

    In the days when Joshua and Zerubabbel were alive, this stone was seen as a physical item or tool, their garments would have denoted whether they were anointed of Jehovah, as it is in the 3rd chapter of Zechariah. This is the literal explanation of these two chapters. A literal transference to the time of the end would be that a stone is placed before Joshua today and Jehovah engraves it, then as well held up by Zerubbabel as it most likely contains a judgement message against the holy mountain.

    To say that the "stone" "top stone" "tin plate" is anything other then a physical item should take that up with Zachariah and see what he would have to say about it. All you need is a time machine, or just a little common sense.

    It will be the stone itself that will be seen as having Jehovah's hand on it (or eyes), just as the scriptures in Zechariah 3 and 4 state.

    So ask yourself this, taken from Zech 4:13; “Do you not know what these things mean?â€￾
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I don't ! :p

    But I'm not the majority of us... ;)

    I think that the two witnesses are a metaphoric way to name the faithful anointed ones during Jesus' presence.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me ask you a couple questions... :confused:

    Why is Joshua seen receiving a crown, and then his companions separately by name in the last verses of Zech 6 then receive their crowns if Joshua is suppose to represent all of the them?

    "Let there be a taking of something from the exiled people,[even] from Hel′dai and from To·bi′jah and from Je·da′iah; and you yourself must come in that day, and you must come into the house of Jo·si′ah the son of Zeph·a·ni′ah [with these] who have come from Babylon. And you must take silver and gold and make a grand crown and put [it] upon the head of Joshua the son of Je·hoz′a·dak the high priest. And you must say to him,“‘This is what Jehovah of armies has said: “Here is the manwhose name is Sprout. And from his own place he will sprout, and he will certainly build the temple of Jehovah. And he himself will build the temple of Jehovah, and he, for his part, will carry [the] dignity; and he must sit down and rule on his throne, and he must become a priest upon his throne, and the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them. And the grand crown itself will come to belong to He′lem and to To·bi′jah and to Je·da′iah and to Hen the son of Zeph·a·ni′ah as a memorial in the temple of Jehovah."

    Why in Rev 11 are these two witnesses seen dead for three and a half days? This is obviously not the three and a half times. So your saying that every anointed will be killed? Well no, we know some will survive and be changed. Rev 11 says that two individuals will be dead 3 and a half days, and those days cannot be connected to the three and a half times of the 1260 days.

    How do you deal with those paradoxes? Also, do you not just relegate two chapters of prophecy in Zechariah to nothing, but to simply say Jehovah's anointed have his favor?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay, here's a couple other things to think about if you believe the two witnesses are to represent a group of people and not two individuals. The proponents of the group theory say these two represent the bride class. Now if that's the case, why are these numbered exactly in Rev 7&14 as 144,000 with no connection from the two witnesses to represent these 144,000?

    In fact, if one reads any accounts of the two witnesses you get the idea that they are two individuals. Please post any scriptural evidence that these two represent the entire bride class as a whole, and where this idea would come from to begin with, because to be honest I have not been able to find anything at all to say or even hint to these two representing all of the bride class and not just two individuals.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    You didn't find it because it was never the case. It has never been said, and neither did I, that the two witnesses represented the entire bride class. They represent the faithful anointed ones still on earth after Jesus' inspection, cleansing and punishment, whom will be his ambassadors, his witnesses and who will therefore testify to the world that his parousia has actually begun. They will be persecuted, imprisoned and put to death, for some of them, by the little horn, the Antichrist (and the MOL, according to my personal interpretation). The period of time going from the destruction of the modern Jerusalem till Babylon's fall is the fulfillment of : "and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." - Luke 21:24
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Where do you read that the two witnesses are more then two individuals?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    That's obvious from the context and in comparing it with other prophecies.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I would have to say quite the opposite from reading of their accounts in Zech 3,4 and Rev 11... It clearly states these two are two individuals. Did not the questions above point that out? Has that not been the case throughout all history, Moses, Elijah, Joshua, Zerubbabel? These were individuals...

    "Why is Joshua seen receiving a crown, and then his companions separately by name in the last verses of Zech 6 then receive their crowns if Joshua is suppose to represent all of the them?"

    "Why in Rev 11 are these two witnesses seen dead for three and a half days? This is obviously not the three and a half times. So your saying that every anointed will be killed? Well no, we know some will survive and be changed. Rev 11 says that two individuals will be dead 3 and a half days, and those days cannot be connected to the three and a half times of the 1260 days. How do you deal with those paradoxes? Also, do you not just relegate two chapters of prophecy in Zechariah to nothing, but to simply say Jehovah's anointed have his favor?"

    "Why are these numbered exactly in Rev 7&14 as 144,000 with no connection from the two witnesses to represent these 144,000?"

    My request still stands, pretend like I don't know anything about the subject, can you show me how these two represent the anointed left on the earth at that time and not simply two individuals?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I never pretended like you don't know anything about the subject. It's obvious to me that they are more than two like it's obvious to others that the GB is the MOL, whereas it isn't so flagrant to me.

    I'll answer your questions later on this week. ;) Although I know that some will never find an answer before Jehovah wants them to be found.
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Meant as; "Pretend I didn't know anything about the subject and explain how you would to someone new." Not sure if that translates into Frenglish... lol

    I would say there is a flaw in your comparison with 2Th 2. The MOL is clearly stated as being within the temple of "The God". There is no speculation, it simply says it clearly, just as scripture describes the two witnesses as two individuals... I would have to say if anyone claims they are anything other then two individuals it would be going beyond what is stated and adding in a theory, is it not?

    "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.â€￾ (Rev 11:3)

    "These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth."
    (Rev 11:4)

    "Then I asked him: “What is the meaning of these two olive trees on the right and on the left of the lampstand?â€￾ I asked him a second time: “What is the meaning of the two bunches of twigs of the olive trees that are pouring out the golden liquid through the two golden tubes?â€￾ (Zech 4:11,12)

    "So he asked me: “Do you not know what these things mean?â€￾I replied: “No, my lord.â€￾ He said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.â€￾ (Zech 4:13:14)

    This scripture above says; "These are the two anointed ones." Two anointed "ones", "the two", clearly indicates that these are two individuals, it does not say "These two are the anointed". If they were to represent many people they would not have "two" & "ones" in the same sentence. It denotes singleness...

    Like I said in posts above, we know that the 3 days they are dead are not the 1260 days in captivity. It isn't even till after they finish their witnessing are they killed, Re 11; "When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them." So we know that their witnessing lasts the 1260 days; "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth." Therefore these three and a half days they are dead are completely separate from the three and a half times, as well we know not all of the anointed are killed at that time. If these two are to represent all the anointed left on earth that would mean all of them would be killed, but that's not the case. 1Cor 15:50; "We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed". That within itself proves there's no way the two witness can be the entire anointed left on the earth.

    Zechariah speaks of Joshua and Zerubbabel as "his" "he" separately, and on and on... The point being this, all of scripture and history says that these two anointed are two persons, and then clearly describes the anointed as a whole separately.

    So I look forward to your explanation...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hugs back to you !!!!!! ;)

    I hope that the breakdown won't last too long.

    [​IMG]
     
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    wallflower

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.â€￾ (Zech 4:14)

    "These" / ’êl-leh = These

    "Two" / Å¡ə-nê = Two

    "Ones" / ḇə-nê- = Sons

    "Anointed" / hay-yiṣ-hār; = Oil

    "These" Define a group of whom we are speaking of, in that of the two previous mentioned as Joshua and Zerubbabel.

    "Two" As a noun represents the number in this group. The group were already mentioned in the word "these".

    "Ones" Denotes (noun) their position as sons.

    "Anointed" Defines their responsibility and position as it pertains to Jehovah's organizational structure.

    "Modern theologians, such as John Walvoord, have furthered the point of indivisualism by comparing the "two lampstands" and the "two olive trees" of Revelation 11 to the two golden pipes and two olive trees/branches ofZechariah 4. By the identification of the two olive branches as "two anointed ones" or "two sons of the oil", in Zechariah, this reinforces the literalist interpretation that the two witnesses are two people. The personification of the two witnesses in Revelation, is so prevalent that according to theologian William Barclay, the passage seems to refer to two definite persons." (Wikipedia)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    You're not the only one who thinks that this number is litteral.

    I haven't much studied that subject for about 4-5 years, and as a consequence, I don't remember the details. Furthermore, the notes that I had taken were on Robert's forum and have therefore disappeared with it.

    What I do remember is that the two witnesses in RV are the faithful anointed ones on earth and the symbolism of their being anointed as priests (=> oil, Holy Spirit) and being given authority as kings is given through the image of the two witnesses in Zechariah.

    Said otherwise, the two witnesses are distinctively the unction and the authority being confered upon the faithful anointed ones once the cleansing is over, and by extension, are the latter ones too.

    Those men and women and above all, their unction and their witnessing work, will make up a sign, a proof, a witness, that Jesus' presence will have begun.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Again, in order to believe that, would there not need to be some scriptural evidence? Both Rev and Zech clearly state that these two are individuals.

    Again I would point out something, where in scripture does it say the two witness include women? As well again, the two witnesses cannot represent wholly the remaining anointed because these two are killed and lay dead for 3 and a half days, not all remaining are killed, but are changed in the blink of an eye, not 3 and a half days later. This clearly makes it impossible for the Two Witnesses in Rev to include all 144,000 remaining on earth. (1Cor 15:52)

    Applying a metaphor to a prophecy is just a simple way of relegating that prophecy to a lesson in serving God. It would be just as easy to say the two witnesses represent two churches, that they represent the two classes of anointed and earthly, and on and on...

    Zechariah and Revelation are extremely detailed as to events that will be fulfilled after and separately from their anointing and these two books, as well all scripture and history clearly state literally that these to are individuals.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I'm sorry but you read Revelation and Zechariah like you read the book of Genesis and thus conclude that animals can't be older than a few thousand years. It's not because "two" is written that it necessarily means two.

    As I said in a previous post, the number two is a symbol and the evidence of the two witnesses being more than two people is to be fetched in other prophecies. Jesus said to his disciples that they would have to give a thorough witness before the end comes, he never talked about two guys preaching on their own and being killed as a result. Moreover, there are no other verses in Revelation than the ones related to the two witnesses that talk about a final witness and that may correspond, in one way or the other, to the one Jesus mentioned in the Gospel in relation with his disciples. Even Daniel doesn't talk about two witnesses, or two individuals on their own, carrying out a large-scale and final witnessing work. In his book, the holy ones are always called and designated as a whole. In addition, you know as I do that, in the verses related to the holy ones, being killed can also mean silenced, imprisoned, conquered, defeated, etc. The Bible uses different wordings to express how the Antichrist will have the upper hand over Jesus' brothers.

    I have other arguments in mind but I don't have the time now to check them up and type them down.

    As for the identity of the two witnesses, the biblical encyclopedias mainly talk about Moses and Elijah (see transfiguration). Many Bible scholars think, as you do, that the number two is to be taken litteraly.

    I disagree.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Unfortunately that very well may be the case... :p
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    In the meantime, we have a few cold ones to upend when I ever hit your place and when you ever hit mine... ;) :p

    But remember ! No Pringles, no pickles, no rollmops allowed ! :cool:
     

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