Two Witnesses...

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 17, 2013.

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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    this is just my crazy opinion. but I know that I know that the two witnesses are living apostles that never died. they will be able to prove their age and the progected fall of the watchtower will be a result of those two men preaching a clean account of Jesus!

    however the watchtower will not stay fallen long because after those two are killed and rise they will take charge of the leadership and the good brothers their will quickly begin to publish the cleaned up message.

    you can expect this to bring a great deal of persecution you may also see signs and miricles in those days.
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    Ari , methinks you have watched a little too many Highlander series ...
    all hearts Jig ...I seriously got a few chuckles from this one post ...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The two witnesses will know their commission when they together witnesses that future new moon in fulfillment of Rosh Hashanah at the first trumpet, and their companions before them will serve as a sign...

    Amos 3:3 "Will two walk together unless they have agreed to meet?"
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Great post Joshua.

    Do you think it's possible that the two witnesses are Christianity and Judaism?

    The woman with the sun arrayed around her head (Christ) and the moon (Moses), establishing a matter? (Jehovah's Sovereignty)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I actually started this thread. If you read back starting with the first post you will find your answers. Please feel free to ask anything further from there on... :)
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    oh poo close but no cigar for you its Indiana Jones and the holy grail! two sent to guard the holy grail until a worthy seeker found it and gained eternal life for the purpose of guarding the grail!

    two witnesses? international bible students and Jehovah's wittnesess hmm
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The two witnesses will be two individuals...

    Rev 11:4; "These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth."


    Zech 4:12; “What are the two bunches of twigs of the olive trees that, by means of the two golden tubes, are pouring forth from within themselves the golden liquid?â€￾ Zech 4:14; “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.â€￾


    Zech 3:9; "For, look! the stone that I have put before Joshua! Upon the one stone there are seven eyes. Here I am engraving its engraving,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies,"


    Zech 4:6,7; “This is the word of Jehovah to Ze‧rub′ba‧bel, saying, ‘“Not by a military force, nor by power, but by my spirit,â€￾ Jehovah of armies has said. Who are you, O great mountain? Before Ze‧rub′ba‧bel you will become a level land. And he will certainly bring forth the headstone."


    Here I wanted to start off by walking you through the connection between the two appointed witnesses in Rev 11 and their description in Zech. These two witnesses are individuals and not those in the new covenant as a whole. This could only definitively be determined through chronology and we will touch base on this a bit more, however I want to touch on Zech 3. It is a very common misunderstandning that Joshua is Jesus. This is by far a complete mistake for many reasons, and let's show why. Number one, Joshua is seen in befouled garments at Zech 3:3; "Now as for Joshua, he happened to be clothed in befouled garments and standing before the angel." This is a condition of sin, and there is no way to explain this away for this sin is forgiven him in verse 4; “See, I have caused your error to pass away from upon you, and there is a clothing of you with robes of state.â€￾

    Now is this definitive? No, however we will show a couple of scriptures that are definitive. Starting with Zech 3:8; "Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men serving as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout!" Here it is clear that Joshua and Jesus "Sprout" are spoken of separately and distinctly. Let's also look at Zech 6:11-14; "And you must take silver and gold and make a grand crown and put it upon the head of Joshua the son of Je‧hoz′a‧dak the high priest. And you must say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies has said: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. And from his own place he will sprout, and he will certainly build the temple of Jehovah. And he himself will build the temple of Jehovah, and he, for his part, will carry the dignity; and he must sit down and rule on his throne, and he must become a priest upon his throne, and the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them." Here you see the moment Joshua is raised, and then Jesus is presented to him. He says to Joshua, "Here is the man Sprout" then notice at the end of verse 14, "the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them". There it is, the absolute proof that Joshua is not Sprout, for they are of course two separate entities. The reason commentaries connect them is for they have no idea who these two are or what their work is.

    In chronology it can be determined that these two are distinctly two individuals. These two are raised after three and a half days of death. This is the only time 3.5 is mentioned in day form instead of years in Rev. These are not dead for the 1260 day period for this is the time of their preaching work in sackloth. (Rev 11:3) They are literally dead only three and a half days. So, we know they are killed at the end of their preaching work, and as well not all remaining will be killed, but changed. (1Cor15:51) Those changed become the reports out of the north that the king of the north goes forward to destroy. (Dan 11:44)

    In fact it doesn't say in Rev 11 that the two witness begin their work at the start of the 1260 days. It simply says they will prophecy in sackloth during that time. In fact they will show themselves before then. We will recognize them in their work. When these two witness the full moon at Rosh Hashanah beginning the time of the end. These two have a special relationship. Not only the love between them that exceeds any worldly understanding in which they would offer their lives for each other in an instant, but also their abilities scripturaly and relationship with Jehovah. They most certainly will compliment each other in their abilities.

    The first of which being Joshua. Given to him is a stone with seven eyes, "For, look! the stone that I have put before Joshua! Upon the one stone there are seven eyes. Here I am engraving its engraving,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies," So, how will we know this stone? Because of what verse 8 says; ‘Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men serving as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout!" So we see those before Joshua will see the stone with seven eyes engraved by Jehovah and will be portents to it. They will be witness to a stone with seven eyes engraved and what was prophesied coming true.

    por·tent
    (pôr[​IMG]t[​IMG]nt[​IMG], p[​IMG]r[​IMG]-) n

    1. An indication of something important or calamitous about to occur; an omen.
    2. Prophetic or threatening significance: signs full of portent.
    3. Something amazing or marvelous; a prodigy.


    Could we here possibly be part of those prophesied as portents to be witnesses to the engraving Jehovah lays before Joshua? Imagine the joy and privilege to see a prophecy fulfilled first hand and to know you are one of the very first few who sees it! In fact in chapter 6 others are spoken of along side Joshua and Zerubbabel as receiving crowns right along with these two, so no doubt there are other anointed here who will be a part of the work let alone all the help from those with the earthly hope, and what a time it will be!!!

    Now how about Zerubbabel? What a privilege he has. "And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: “The very hands of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel have laid the foundation of this house, and his own hands will finish it. And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to ​YOU​ people. For who has despised the day of small things? And they will certainly rejoice and see the plummet in the hand of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel. These seven are the eyes of Jehovah. They are roving about in all the earth." (Zech 4:8-10) No doubt this will have something to do with the call to rebuild Jerusalem well within the time of the end...

    “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.â€￾ ​(Zech 4:14)
     
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    Jan

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    Hi Joshuaston7 ,

    Interesting subject! I read it all the way from the beginning. And I understand like you that the 2 witnesses will be literally 2 men giving a final overwhelming witness to the world. And I can't wait to see them begin the work with supernatural powers necessary to not get stopped by the authorities. That will surely be known in the entire world. That will be shocking news when they destroy their enemies miraculously when they try to stop them. This wicked world needs a strong show of God's power. So that they will have no excuse that they did not know why they will be destroyed by God's Kingdom. Yes I want to see irrefutable miracles and wonders of old days, similar to what Moses performed in beating Egypt and Elijah that brought fire upon 50 solders and their commander, even twice when they came to catch him.
     
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    4winds

    4winds Guest

    Still getting familiar here, but I do agree there is a final fulfillment manifestation of all the major Kingdom and temple prophecies, but of course have to remain silent on certain issues in the congregation. The ignorance of Zechariah temple revelation from modern Bethel has raised concern in my own opinion of their modern spiritual condition.

    Interesting views, thanks.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The two witnesses power.

    So, we've all wondered about the powers these two witnesses display in the eleventh chapter of Revelation. It would appear that these powers are tied into the first four trumpets and bowls, and then the remaining "woes". In fact Rev 11 is basically saying that these two witnesses prophecy and predict the exact time of these first four trumpets and bowls, and as well the events coming onto the world in the remaining events in Revelation.

    These first four trumpets and bowls are prophetic events fulfilled in the errors of the WTS's coming to light in the world and its subsequent fall. These two witnesses apparently have the knowledge of how and when this will come about, down to the very day in fact.

    Unlike Moses and Aaron, there is no need to physically cause fire from heaven, nor to turn water into blood for they will have the stone set before Joshua with the seven eyes, (also known as the "top stone" in Zech 4) that will predict ahead of time when these events are to occur, proving they are from Jehovah, acting as his two witnesses.

    Rev 11:5,6 "If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies. If anyone should want to harm them, this is how he must be killed. These have the authority to shut up the sky so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish."

    Rev 8:7 "The first one blew his trumpet. And there was hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up."

    Rev 16:2 “And the first one went off and poured out his bowl into the earth. And a hurtful and malignant ulcer came to be upon the men that had the mark of the wild beast and that were worshiping its image.â€￾

    Rev 8:8 “And the second angel blew his trumpet. And something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea. And a third of the sea became blood.â€￾

    Rev 16:3 “And the second one poured out his bowl into the sea. And it became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea.â€￾

    Rev 8:10 “And the third angel blew his trumpet. And a great star burning as a lamp fell from heaven, and it fell upon a third of the rivers and upon the fountains of waters.â€￾

    Rev 16:4 “And the third one poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters. And they became blood.â€￾

    Rev 8:12 “And the fourth angel blew his trumpet. And a third of the sun was smitten and a third of the moon and a third of the stars, in order that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not have illumination for a third of it, and the night likewise.â€￾

    Rev 16:8 “And the fourth one poured out his bowl upon the sun; and to [the sun] it was granted to scorch the men with fire.â€￾
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    There must be a mouse in your pocket when you say "us". There is no way to prove this yet without speculation.

    However, regarding individuals symbolizing groups or classes of people, we need to look no further than Jacob who would become Israel. At first Israel was just a single man, However under the covenant made with Abraham, the resultant congregation of Israel was viewed as a single individual.

    Exodus 4:22-23 “And you must say to Phar′aoh, ‘This is what Jehovah has said: “Israel is my son, my firstborn. 23 And I say to you: Send my son away that he may serve me. But should you refuse to send him away, here I am killing your son, your firstborn.â€￾’â€￾â€￾

    Thus it is quite possible that the two witnesses, although described as single individuals, could represent a much larger group or class of people if we are to follow the pattern set in the scriptures.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I smiled when I read this first sentence you wrote because that's exactly what I think, besides the fact that I agree with the overall content of your post. There are generally accepted conclusions for which we can deem appropriate the use of "us" but when it comes to highly speculative and personal theses, a little bit of restraint would be welcome in that regard.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    There is never speculation, I assure you of that. By all means let's further this subject.

    Explain away how Zech 4:14 reads these two as individuals.

    “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.â€￾
    (Zech 4:14)

    "These" / ’êl-leh = These

    "Two" / Å¡ə-nê = Two

    "Ones" / ḇə-nê- = Sons

    "Anointed" / hay-yiṣ-hār; = Oil

    "These" Define the group of whom we are speaking of, in that of the two witnesses.

    "Two" As a noun represents the number of people in this group. The group were already mentioned in the word "these".

    "Ones" Denotes (noun) their position as sons.

    "Anointed" Defines their responsibility and position as it pertains to Jehovah's organizational structure.


    Also, if it is you are agreeing the two are described as individuals but represent the group as a whole, is this not just as it always has been? Mosses and Elijah represented all of the Israelites even though they were two individuals. Zechariah and Zerubbabel as well...

    Also, may I point out that the two witnesses of Rev being two individually is the literal reading, anyone claiming these represent a group without them being two individuals bares the burden of proving otherwise, the burden of proof does not lie with the literal reading, although the proofs clearly show individualism. The two only as a group is the speculation and theory of someone's personal theses.

    "Because they are" is no scriptural based proofs. I have yet to see scriptural evidence these two are not individuals, yet absolute proofs showing they are is ignored, brushed off, and denied, is that how you want to approach scripture? Certainly not me, I want to know the truth, regardless of what that is.

    Zech 3&4 is the explanation of the two's identity.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Personally, we'll just repeat what we always said about it all : They are two because it is the number two that is is written and two is two and not three.

    We've already said our piece in that regard. We're not convinced by the rest. :)

    I'm just using here for fun the plural of majesty. :p
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Regarding the stone with seven eyes, perhaps these scriptures can help. Since there are only two occurrences of the "seven eyes" in the bible, perhaps they are related somehow.
    Revelation 5:6 “. . .And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb as though it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which [eyes] mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth.â€

    Zechariah 3:8-9 “. . .“‘Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men [serving] as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout! 9 For, look! the stone that I have put before Joshua! Upon the one stone there are seven eyes. Here I am engraving its engraving,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, ‘and I will take away the error of that land in one day.’â€

    Quite often the engraving of something was that of a seal as in the following scripture:

    Exodus 28:11 “With the work of a craftsman in stones, with the engravings of a seal, you are to engrave the two stones with the names of the sons of Israel. Set in settings of gold is how you will make them.â€

    The stone with seven eyes is engraved with an engraving which could symbolize the sealing of the anointed ones, or perhaps the sealing of Jesus Christ who through his blood would not only remove the sins/error of that land(Spiritual Israel) but also purchase them as firstfruits.

    Zechariah 3:8 brings out that Joshua and his companions are serving as portents(Lit., “men of portent (token; wonder)). A token is something that is purchased to be used at a later time for something. Also, when looking at the origin of the word token we see that it is Old English tāc(e)n, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch teken and German Zeichen, also to teach. To teach is exactly what the anointed have done and will do.


    Also, Utuna posted some information regarding the headstone not being a capstone, but the head of the corner. Very interesting since...

    Psalm 118:22 “The stone that the builders rejected Has become the head of the corner.â€

    Ephesians 2:20-22 “. . .while Christ Jesus[sprout] himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit.. . .â€

    Just some thoughts...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Cristo,

    I appreciate your presence here, don't be such a stranger. I doubt there is anyone on this forum who has studied Zech 3&4 more then I have but, I always appreciate someone commenting on them, it makes me more sure and to read through the details once again. I'm sure my name on here and scripture signature at the bottom of my posts attest to that. I could write a book on this subject, but in the spirit of keeping this post short and to keep it light I will simply mention some subjects as though they are excepted, rather then to go in-depth into why they are, such as the two witnesses being individuals.

    Let's start with the seven eyes.

    Zech 3:9a "See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes;"

    One must start with this first sentence. After you realize that the two witnesses of Rev 11 are two individuals and understand that Zech 3&4 discusses these two, then you start with the understanding that this Joshua will be representative of a brother in the future.

    Now, we have other examples or types of these two. If you look at the transfiguration we see that Moses and Elijah are types/examples of the two witnesses in the time of the end. Now, Moses and Joshua share something in common, they both are connected to stones that were given to them by God. In Moses's case we have the ten commandments written on the two tablets;

    [​IMG]

    Ex 31:18 "Now as soon as he had finished speaking with him on Mount Si′nai, he gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone written on by God’s finger."

    Then we have Joshua receiving a stone which is also inscribed by Jehovah;

    Zech 3:9b "See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes; and I am engraving an inscription on it,’ declares Jehovah of armies,"

    Now, it's at this point we want to identify the characters involved a little further. It is a very common conclusion for people to generalize prophecy. It's much easier to attribute prophecy to characteristics of Christ and Jehovah's personalities then to narrow down and pinpoint their precise meaning. To relegate all of prophecy to some characteristic of Holy Spirit is not in itself a bad thing, Christ is the Word, and all scripture comes from him by Jehovah's will, and in that way all things are in their spirit however, once the true track is followed one finds these prophecies have a very real fulfillment in the time of the end, and are given to us in order for when these things begin to occur we will see them.

    With that in mind, we know for many reasons that Joshua is not Jesus, we know the stone is not Jesus, Let's examine;

    Zech 8,9 “Hear, please, O High Priest Joshua, you and your companions who sit before you, for these men serve as a sign; look! I am bringing in my servant Sprout! See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes; and I am engraving an inscription on it,’ declares Jehovah of armies, ‘and I will take away the guilt of that land in one day."

    Here Joshua is spoken separately from "Sprout" (which of course is Jesus, the branch of David) and as well the stone is mentioned separately while the Sprout (Jesus) is clearly mentioned to make sure their is no doubt these two are not the same entity.

    Now the proof of this goes into the next point you made about the cornerstone. Jesus as we know is the cornerstone of Jehovah's organizational structure. And this is mentioned many times throughout scripture.

    Here pictured is a cornerstone of a building;

    [​IMG]

    Now in no way is this the same stone as the capstone pictured here;

    [​IMG]

    Jesus is the head of the cornerstone as you mentioned. There are always more then one cornerstone to a structure however, Jesus is by all means the head of the cornerstones, he is THE cornerstone, the very foundation of Jehovah's organizational structure, the source of all scripture, the Word. As for the capstone or top stone, this is placed at the crown or top of the structure, and there is only one. In scripture the capstone is only described as being held by Joshua and Zerubbabel. There are two places Zerubbabel is seen holding it as well. Even though translations very as to how they translate the word in Zechariah, the meaning is the same.

    Zech 4:7 "Who are you, O great mountain? Before Ze·rub′ba·bel you will become a level land. And he will bring out the top stone amid shouts of: “How wonderful! How wonderful!â€￾

    Zech 4:10 "For who has despised the day of small beginnings? For they will rejoice and see the plumb line (top stone) in the hand of Ze·rub′ba·bel."

    So with that said, as we know this stone has seven eyes. We must deduce that this stone of course is a tablet/paper (what have you) with inscriptions from Jehovah, just as that given to Moses. So as for the seven eyes we can also determine their meaning as long as we stay on that track of understanding. You pointed out that there were a couple of places that mention these seven eyes in that of course is Zech 3&4 and as well Revelation. The bible attributes these eyes to both Jesus and Jehovah in fact, let's look;

    Zech 4:10b "These seven are the eyes of Jehovah, which are roving about in all the earth.â€￾

    Rev 5:6 "And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, and the eyes mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent out into the whole earth."

    So then, these seven eyes are attributed to both Jesus and Jehovah, why? It is because the answer lies in Rev 4:5;

    Rev 4:5 "From the throne were coming lightning and voices and thunders; and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, and these mean the seven spirits of God."

    We know from the description of the Lamb that the seven eyes are representative of the seven spirits of God.

    Eyes in connection with Jehovah and Jesus are representative of their foresight, the ability to foresee the future. 7 is the completeness and perfection of Jehovah's spirits/Holy Spirit. The seven spirits from Jehovah are the source of the perfect ability to foresee the future in order to write down on a tablet before Joshua things that are foreseen to occur.

    This tablet or capstone set before Joshua is quite honestly the culmination of all prophecy. Jesus being it's cornerstone/foundation and the Word, has had the responsibility to bring all things to a head in the time of the end, and given this responsibility from Jehovah by his Holy Spirit he gives Joshua the final fulfillment of all prophecy. It can be explained by a simple example. Einstein in his desire to describe all of creation in a single formula was able to connect energy and mass in his famous formula E=MC2. This is the same thing with the stone before Joshua. The stone is this final capstone of prophecy, it's a stone that comes from scripture and has the final fulfillment of all prophecy in the time of the end. This stone is the culmination of all prophecy from which source is Jehovah's Holy Spirit and contained within the stone before Joshua will be the final 7 plagues coming on this dying system, and the whole world will see it.

    Zech 4:10b "These seven are the eyes of Jehovah, which are roving about in all the earth.â€￾
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Thanks Josh for taking the time to make research and type your post.

    Seems to me that the seven eyes and the stone represent God's all-encompassing knowledge and discernment.

    Joshua representing here Jesus : "He himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake, in order that we might be done with sins and live to righteousness. And “by his stripes YOU were healed.â€￾" - 1 Pe 2:24
     
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    Have you brothers ever thought why there is so much resistance to the thought that the 2 witnesses could actually be literally 2 individuals?

    Could the reason be jelousy? That those resisting a literal fulfillment don't want to see that God would give such a prominence to 2 anointed christians?

    But there is no reason for jelonsy. Everyone gets from God assignments according to his abilities. That's a fact. We should not require equality in assignments and rewards. Because we are not "working" with equal effort, because it is impossible that we work equally.

    How came that apostle John and Peter where the closest apostles of Jesus? How come that John was the most beloved of all the apostles?
    And how come that despite of these facts, apostle Paul a former persecuter of Jesus' disciples outperformed the other apostles in spreading knowledge of Jesus and in establishing new congregations?

    So we can't require equal rewards in this life, nor in the heavenly kingdom. Because we are not performing equally. Everyone should be rewarded according to his deeds. That's what God's words teach.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It is very common (as I mentioned in my post) for some to reduce all of prophecy to a simple reiteration of Jehovah's qualities. While in itself is fine, you can pluck the wings of a fly and it will crawl around, but it will never fly again.

    The seven spirits do represent Jehovah's perfect holy spirit however, once they are eyes on the stone before Joshua they become something very real. They represent Jehovah's foresight and ability to see the future.

    This stone is something very real, just as the stones given to Moses. Moses was a physical man, and the ten commandments given to him were physical stones. So will be the stone before Joshua. The stone before Joshua will contain 7 prophetic events that will come true in the time of the end, and will be what the whole world sees from Jehovah, proving the time of the end has arrived.

    If you have two men that predict 7 major events in the world that come true, they will no doubt be very famous.

    With all do respect brother, this thinking is quite wrong. I understand there are many sources that try and connect Joshua and Jesus however, I will show you how impossible this is.

    Again, no disrespect in that it's very common to simply relegate all of prophecy to some characteristic of Jehovah's qualities. With that thinking it would seem all of prophecy is simply a lesson for us about his spirit, doesn't that seem to you a bit redundant? Let me go into Zechariah 3.

    Joshua is seen with befouled garments, representing a sinful state.

    Zech 3:3 "Now Joshua was clothed in filthy garments and standing before the angel."

    This cannot represent Christ, for Christ Jesus was sinless. As well again, this is not a lesson into Jehovah's characteristics, and in no way does this represent sins of mankind. The fourth verse goes into this;

    Zech 3:4 "The angel said to those standing before him, “Remove his filthy garments.†Then he said to him, “See, I have caused your error to pass away from you, and you will be clothed with fine garments."

    Jesus had no error, and in no way can this error be from anyone else but Joshua for what verse 2 says;

    Zech 3:2 "Then the angel of Jehovah said to Satan: “May Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan, yes, may Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this one a burning log snatched out of the fire?â€

    Joshua is plucked like a burning log from the fire. This is one of the sons of God, who after being anointed somehow sinned. He turned his life around and will be forgiven for his sins. Satan is there accusing him of sins he had already committed in order to resist him from being cleansed, not to try and tempt someone who had not sinned, that is perfectly clear. The event is his cleansing, and that is what Satan is resisting.

    Reading Zech 3 :7 rightfully explains to Joshua he has the possibility of serving as "A" judge in Jehovah's house, this clearly is not Jesus, Joshua will simply be a judge.

    Zech 3:7 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘If you will walk in my ways and carry out your responsibilities before me, then you will serve as a judge in my house and take care of my courtyards; and I will give you free access among these who are standing here."

    Now let's look into the coup de gras, Joshua and Jesus are spoken of several times in the same sentence as two distinct individuals. Let's examine the first in;

    Zech 3:8 "Hear, please, O High Priest Joshua, you and your companions who sit before you, for these men serve as a sign; look! I am bringing in my servant Sprout!"

    Here you see that Sprout is Jesus, the branch of David however, he is spoken of separately then Joshua, it would make no sense, and would be grammatically impossible for the sentence to be speaking of the same person in both names. The sentence structure shows these two as two separate entities. The voice is speaking to Joshua and telling him he is bringing in Sprout, in no way does someone speak to an individual and tell them they are bringing someone in with a different name and that is suppose to represent themself. Speaking of the person you are talking to in a third party? No...

    Zech 3 & 4 clearly are speaking of Joshua and Zerubbabel, with Jesus in there as well. Now we know for a fact that the two olive trees and lampstands in Zech 3 & 4 represent Joshua and Zerubbabel. So if that's the case how could either one of them be Jesus if we read Zech 4:14?

    Zech 4:14 "He said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth."

    Those two are seen standing along side the Lord of the whole earth! That's right you have Joshua and Zerubbabel standing beside the Lord. Now you can't have Jesus standing beside himself can you?

    Zech 6:11,12 "You should take silver and gold and make a crown and put it on the head of Joshua son of Je·hoz′a·dak, the high priest. And say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah."

    Here you go again, Jesus being discussed separately from Joshua. This point in Zech depicts Joshua and his brothers being raised to heavenly life receiving their crowns and being introduced to Jesus himself. Not only that but scripture even tells what kind of relationship there will be between Joshua and Jesus, and stating that Joshua and Jesus are two!;

    Zech 6:13 "He is the one who will build the temple of Jehovah, and he is the one who will assume the majesty. He will sit down on his throne and rule, and he will also be a priest on his throne, and there will be a peaceable agreement between the two."

    Zechariah tells us that both Joshua and Jesus will have "peaceable agreement" between them, saying they are two! Our old translation reads;

    Zech 6:13 "And he himself will build the temple of Jehovah, and he, for his part, will carry [the] dignity; and he must sit down and rule on his throne, and he must become a priest upon his throne, and the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them."

    This says that both Joshua and Jesus will be in completely peaceful agreement. Now unless you think Jesus has some kind of multiple personality disorder then obviously these two individuals are different.

    Joshua is one of the two olive trees and lampstands that stands beside the lord of the whole earth. Joshua is simply a man in the time of the end that will serve in a capacity such as Moses and Arron and Joshua and Zerubbabel to do a work as Jehovah has always done. Jehovah brings humans to mankind just as in the days of Noah, just as in the days of the exodus, just as Jonah, just as in the days of Christ, to warn the world of the coming destruction.

    Anyone who believes the time of the end will not be the same really should read through their Bibles again, this is the way it has always been! Jehovah has always, and I do mean ALWAYS used humans to send out into the world and bring Jehovah's judgement message in order to warn those ones of the coming calamity.

    Joshua and Zerubbabel will be two men with a physical construct such as a piece of paper that will have 7 prophecies on it. These 7 prophecies will be dates of events to come upon the world, and they are Jehovah's perfect foresight from his Holy Spirit. As these predictions by the two witnesses come true the whole world will see it...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I'm a jealous person because I don't believe that the "two witnesses" are two individuals only ?

    Let them be two ! Let them be everything and anything you want them to be !

    Wow, glory to them ! Let them have everything ! May them be blessed and honored more than human words can tell !!!

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