Two Witnesses...

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 17, 2013.

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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    The question of the nature and the identity of the "two witnesses" is much more complex than that.

    In a previous post someplace, I said that I had already said my piece in that regard. I was wrong. I'm not done broaching the second part of the issue and some others I run into that are subsidiary and yet noteworthy.

    I'll do my best to write it all out ASAP but, as you already know, knowledge is more than ever.... not my priority.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It is no more complex then the fact that Moses and Arron represented the whole nation of Israel. Even though they were two individuals they represented the entire nation to Pharaoh. Nothing you say will do anything other then confirm these two represent the bride class as a whole, and everything I have said shows they are individuals, both are true...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Then, if it's not more complex than that, let them be two and glory to them !
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Why do you attribute glory to two men doing nothing but what they're told as good for nothing slaves?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Two men only doing what their told, knowing they are going to die for it in a horrible public way like their Lord. Why are they special in any way? They have a responsibility that will mean great endurance, while others can lean back and watch it come! What accolades do these two deserve other then doing their job as no good slaves just as they are?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    How many times did men of God resist extra responsibility? Moses resisted saying he was not a great speaker, Noah resisted, Jonah resisted, Paul resisted, on and on. God chose them to do a job, not to have glory, these men were to work harder, not to be praised. They were slaves and nothing more.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Because of what I wrote above
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Because of what I wrote above
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Because of what I wrote above, glory to them !
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    The air is getting thick in here...



    The tablet given Moses was not a prophetic seer stone as you are suggesting, but rather a decree of commandments. The belief that Jehovah would give a stone/tablet/paper with prophecy on it to be understood only by one person, or a certain group of persons is not scriptural. In fact it was already tried by the Mormon founder Joseph Smith and his lackies.

    Jehovah NEVER used any physical item for the purpose you are suggesting.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You surprise me Cristo, and here I thought you would have come up with something a little more accurate however, you couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps it is because you had not given it enough thought, I don't know. In any regard, let's address your comments.

    First off, there is no reason for me to take offense by the air, my comments about my enjoyment of Zechariah were simply that. I meant no superiority, I simply enjoy the book, hence my time with it. This was the genesis of my comment.

    Now as to your errors, (which I'm really surprised you put yourself out there like that without a little more concern for accuracy, but with that said.).

    Number one, I never said the ten commandments contained prophecy. The connection was simply that they both obtained hand written stones by God, and both men are connected to one of the two witnesses in Rev 11. Simple, no?

    Number two, and more importantly, your error in saying Jehovah has never used stone tablets/paper or anything of the sort to send a message to mankind of coming prophecy or destruction could not be more mistaken. My friend, almost every single book of the Bible contains prophecy. How many books are there? How many writers? How many letters were written by men and then sent out among Gods people declaring coming events on them and the world? The Bible was once just a collection of scrolls. So I think this is how God has always done things has he not? Sometimes the most obvious can slip by us I suppose. ;)

    Now, how about something a little more specific? Remember king Belshazzar, the king in Babylon that called for the utensils from the temple? After having them brought to him surely you remember what occurred next. That's right, a hand from God writes on the stone wall. What does it write? It writes a prophecy...

    All sarcasm aside, we know in fact that there will be more books and scrolls opened in the future. We also know from Eze 9:11 that there will be a man in the time of the end who will have a work of writing something from God well before Armageddon. "I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate that faces north, each with his weapon for smashing in his hand; and there was one man among them clothed in linen, with a secretary’s inkhorn at his waist, and they came in and stood beside the copper altar."

    I don't think I need to reiterate anything I have already written in previous posts of the two witnesses in this reply, but suffice it to say, Jehovah and time will uncover all things. These two will represent both Judah and Jerusalem as a whole in the time of the end even though they are individuals.

    We should look at these times as training and a reminder of why we serve Jehovah. Not to become praised by others as the governing body have it, but buy knowing we serve him as good for nothing slaves for when that time comes that you and I brother stand shoulder to shoulder at the gates of Bethel, we will know our place in the work of the Lord.

    I appreciate every comment on here, and even more so from those like yourself Cristo. These subjects we discuss have few fans. There are few who even have the desire to discuss these subjects, and some may even say themselves they lack the ability however, your presence and mine here is by God, along with everyone else, I know this. Your God, is my God, that in this world is so rare my friend, we are brothers.

    In conclusion, yours and everyone's constructive criticism in presenting any alternative view is always welcome, this gives us all the chance to be more sure, or to learn the truth, to be corrected, to learn new things. This I think is the reason Jehovah's Holy Spirit resides here.
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Ugh...

    The fact that Moses received hand written stones from God has nothing to do with the stone that Joshua sees with seven eyes. The stone tablets given to Moses were real. The stone with seven eyes is symbolic, unless you are Harry Potter then maybe there is a stone with seven eyes on it, otherwise no. Simple yes?

    I was actually going to put the bible, as the exception to my statement, but felt that it was an obvious deduction when I stated the words "for the purpose you are suggesting." Now that I see the level of debate which I must allude to for you I will be more specific.

    For example. Jehovah did not give Moses a piece of paper before he went to Pharaoh to prophetically announce the plagues. Isaiah was not given a piece of paper when he went to the kings and proclaimed what was about to happen. Jehovah did not give Moses, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel, or any of the other prophets a physical construct prior to them having to prove their divine source of prophecy, which is what you are suggesting.


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    OBVIOUSLY the prophets used paper to write down prophecy, hence the bible, but in the context of how you are suggesting... it NEVER happened.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    As to your belief on whether the two witnesses are individuals or not you have been vague. So, with that said, I will argue the point as though they are individuals for the sake of my post, for I believe this is the case.

    If the two witnesses are literal, and Joshua represents a human in the time of the end, and in Zech 3 Satan is literal, the angel from God is literal, where is the connection that the stone is symbolic? We know the eyes represent Jehovah's foresight, and that comes from his Holy Spirit for Zech directs us to Rev and the seven spirits. If you say the stone is symbolic you could also then say that Satan is, the angel, Joshua, and then (as I have said) every prophecy in scripture can be relegated to a lesson in Jehovah's qualities. That idea is very permeate throughout people trying to understand prophecy, if they don't it must just be another lesson in Jehovah's qualities, another reminder. As it is, the only thing that we can say for sure represents something other then what it actually says is the eyes. Everything else we must assume is literal, at least honestly reading Zech 3. Saying the stone is symbolic would be going beyond what is written because there is no connection to the stone with any characteristics of Jehovah's qualities. Keep in mind this stone is also the "plumbline" and "topstone" in the hands of Zerubbabel in Zech 4. It is literal. We know the eyes are symbolic because it leads us to it's meaning in Rev, the stone however does not lead us away in such a manner.

    Why do we know the trinity is false? Why do we know the earth will remain forever? Did Jehovah have to speak to us to understand this? No, because it is all recorded for us in scripture. In Moses day, was there anything written down to tell Moses what to do? No, he had to speak to him. But as it is to your argument, every time Jehovah approached a prophet and spoke to him, that prophet wrote down what Jehovah said. So in that way, yes Jehovah gave every prophet who ever lived a stone/paper in front of him in order for the people to know what was coming.

    In Jerusalem all the Jews knew when to expect Jesus's arrival and were looking for it, why? Because they had the scrolls, they didn't need to hear his voice.

    In the context of how I am describing it has happened, many times.

    Dan 9:2 "in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years."

    Here Daniel discerns prophecies with only the scrolls in hand. This is how I believe Joshua gets the stone with seven eyes. In our days we have all we need in scripture to know what to expect. Joshua will simply be able to decipher the prophecies within correctly. This is no different then Jehovah's Witnesses understanding the trinity is false, or any other doctrinal understandings.

    Every single major event in history had humans waiting for an exact day. Noah knew 120 years would pass, then 120 days, 7 days more. Daniel knew exactly when they were to be reestablished in Jerusalem. The Jews knew the exact date to expect the Messiah. This is the way God has always done things.

    Maybe it's the fact that you don't understand how I see Zech 3. Let me spell it out in plain words. I believe (of course) that Joshua represents an individual in the time of the end. I believe he will have a work very similar to Daniel where he deciphers the bible. He discovers 7 events in the time of the end and writes them down. Now since this is from scripture they are from Jehovah, and once these events begin to occur that represents Jehovah inscribing it. Very simple in fact, and once these events begin, every other date on that page will be known, allowing the two witnesses to have the exact dates for the final events in scripture. This is in fact how Jehovah has always done things. It has always been that one or two individuals "only" knew ahead of time the exact time to pass before some event. Then this person or few shared it with those around him. Again, this is exactly how Jehovah has always done things. He has always sent individual humans who were the only ones on earth that knew the exact days before an event to the rest of the world.

    The only difference between Moses and Daniel is that Daniel had things already recorded in scrolls that he could decipher the dates to come, where Moses had to be told. We have the scrolls and everything is there, there is no need for Jehovah to speak to us to figure it out. Do you not think that with the billions of people on this planet, and with Jehovah's Holy Spirit that he couldn't allow one person to have the ability to actually understand prophecy before the time of the end? That would be naive to think not, for this is exactly how Jehovah has always done things.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    There is something that really bugs me regarding your interpretations, beyond the fact that we both don't read and reason the same way. I had already broached that issue a long time ago but as I got to think about it again due to my personal research on other subjects, I'll mention it again.

    When we read the 12 prophets in study Bibles, there are tons of footnotes that indicate that either the Hebrew text is obscure and nearly inintelligible (which means that the translation is nothing but guesswork) or that the meanings are multifold and that you can pick the one that humours you...

    As a result, I really wonder how you can be so categorical and assertive in the way you put forth your interpretations and conclusions here or in other threads.

    As you already know, I'm not giving you bad motives or saying that you're totally wrong, even if you know that I disagree with you but it really makes me wonder.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    From such a Christian as yourself I'm surprised that you attack the Bible like that. Sure there are some scriptures that can't be narrowed down exactly, so therefore you don't put a complete theory around a single scripture, however I have discovered those that really matter Jehovah has made sure there is no contradiction or obscurity. I find neither of these in Zechariah 3&4 as it pertains to the two witnesses individuality.

    I'm surprised you would attack scripture to try and disprove the two witnesses are individuals instead of sighting the specific scriptures I rely on that are obscure or have multiple meaning. I don't take scripture lightly and blindly stumble my way through prophecy, I delve into scripture to see if these things are so.

    I believe (and have faith) Jehovah was capable of keeping intact the most important of scriptures in Zech and Rev in order for us to understand the two witnesses. This is the literal reading, and you say it's metaphorical, but somehow I'm the one with a theory? The burden does not lie with the literal reading but in the theory that they are metaphors of a larger number, and from what I've seen you have not made the case. Your theory that they are more then two is an interpretation, I believe the literal reading. Who proves them self making a personal interpretation?

    I'm surprised at that post Utuna. If you wonder at me, I am doing fine. Surely you meant that in a brotherly love way right? I will stand up for my own lot in the last days. Leave others to wonder of my intentions, (on this thread and "other threads") they are clear to Jehovah and that's all that matters. As to the purpose and future of this db, I mean there is an on and off switch, because with Jehovah's name on it the intention shouldn't be wondered at because after all first and foremost I would never want Jehovah's name to be besmirched, and if I felt others thought that's what was happening that choice would be very easy, it is my responsibility ultimately to maintain this...

    PS: You do know footnotes and the LXX are interpretations, right? I wouldn't rely on men, but on Jehovah.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I'm afraid I didn't phrase my post properly. I'm sorry if what I wrote really made you think this way. I didn't say that you were wrong because of the uncertainties I mentioned earlier. I said that you were assertive and categorical, as if it couldn't be otherwise, and this on many occasions. Having faith in one's interpretations doesn't preclude the risk of having used ambiguous materials to build it. It's nobody's fault. What I said here, I would have said it to anybody else. I know that you are a careful and meticulous reader of the Bible. I never said otherwise. To put things otherwise, I think that it wouldn't be useless to openly allow a certain room for "uncertainty" in your conclusions.

    As for my personal interpretations and what I quote from the LXX, you can criticize them at will. I don't mind at all. I just want to add, as a conclusion, that the LXX is the version the apostles used when they quoted the OT in the NT. Granted, it may not really be the version they used but they used it and I talk about it openly because there must be valuable keys therein and useful to unfold everything we all so dearly want to know.

    After all, if the apostles used it back then, isn't there therein valuable information that Jehovah has carefully kept under his protective wings so we may benefit from it ?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Don't confuse confidence with cockiness. In person or on here I am a confident person. Let me give you an example. I am also a musician. As a musician one must have confidence in their playing, if they do not they will not be accomplished, therefore you know your ability and you let that translate through your playing. Does that mean you think your better then everyone else, or smarter then anyone else? No, confidence can simply allow us the ability to accomplish certain abilities.

    As to my confidence translating to "assertive and categorical", I would say it seems you are using those traits as someone who would not admit when they are wrong. I believe I have even recently done just that here. In fact Christs brothers used assertiveness to bring others into the truth. Daniel even mentions those in the time of the end who would bring others in the truth because with the words; "And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many." If this is the trait that I show then I take that as Godly, for it is prophesied that these men in the end would show traits just as you have portrayed to me, and I will certainly be categorical and assertive when talking to others about Christ. If the subject were the trinity or hell fire, would we even be having this conversation?

    All of us here could be silent about what we have come to understand. We don't even need to be here, we could just sit at home and hide our light under a bush. We could lock the seeds of truth in a box and bury them in the ground until our lord comes back. Is that what we should do?

    Then that brings me to Jehovah's spirit. Why would Jehovah choose to give someone in our day spirit? I sometimes wonder at those who claim to have it but that show no truth or natural affection at all. Does Jehovah give the true spirit to someone in our day for no reason? I don't think so (And of course this is personal opinion). I happen to think that there is a reason, and it better be a very good reason. Not just because there is space that needs filled up in heaven, but that there is a purpose. So with that said, if something is from Jehovah's spirit personally I make double sure of it's content, not just compare something to my own understanding, but to deeply absorb it and see if it's from him.

    Now, do I think I'm right about everything? Nope... Do I think I have a commission from God? Nope... Jehovah hasn't spoke to me, nor any angels. I have not had information planted in my brain, what I write is not inspired. Everything I understand is simply the same material anyone else in the world has access too.

    So what do I think about my approach? I think the Bible is like an instrument, I have learned that instrument only after years of study and practice. I have read the same chapters more times then I can count, comparing them to the rest of scripture to try and understand what Jehovah actually meant by said scriptures. Do I think I can only be right and only me? No... Can my approach be misunderstood? Maybe, idk... I know that typing and text does not lend itself to portraying emotion, but I generally think I present my understanding clearly, with scriptural references and as concise as possible. It does seem the subjects I enjoy are more complex then others, and more then my approach I believe some simply don't grasp the picture as a whole because my understandings involve the entire Bible not just a local subject. Every single subject and every single scripture must fit together for an idea to be correct. So with every single subject you pretty much have to read through the whole bible again in order to see if anything contradicts it.

    You have generalized all of my interpretations and understanding with the statements, "I said that you were assertive and categorical, as if it couldn't be otherwise, and this on many occasions" & "I really wonder how you can be so categorical and assertive in the way you put forth your interpretations and conclusions here or in other threads.". This does not sound like you are addressing the subject of this thread "Two Witnesses", but more so a generality in that of everything I have said on this forum. Now if there is something specific you claim I go beyond what is written by all means share the statements by me and scriptures I present in order to debunk what I have written. To simply say all of my writings and threads are based on ambiguous self interpretation "with no regard for the possibility I could be wrong" shows a weakness of mind. It's much easier to say, "Your just wrong because your wrong" isn't it?

    "Uncertainty" must be the first and foremost understanding when approaching an instrument. If you pick up an instrument and begin playing for people they will most likely walk out on you regardless of how confident you are. Now however after years of practice and following the sheet music you will begin to play the music someone else has written and as well play it as they originally intended. Can you go off the tune and ad-lib? Yes of course, will it be true to the original sheet music and the original composers piece? No... So then it comes down to what you wish, what you desire, what you are capable of, perhaps even what Jehovah thinks your capable of.

    Let me give you another example, auto restoration. One could take a classic car and build it into his idea of what a hot rod should look like without any concern for its original construction, fine, you have built a vehicle that is an interpretation of the original, but what if you want to restore that vehicle back to original factory specs? You must follow the manuals and the factory specs in a very precise way in order to end up with exactly what the original designers meant this vehicle to be when it came off the assembly line.

    To me, I want to reconstruct prophecy back to original specs. Exactly how the original creator wanted and meant for it to be. That is my desire, and my purpose. Just because someone may not completely understand what they are looking at does not mean it's wrong. Can you look at a 1969 Camaro and tell me what may or may not be factory on it? Well if you then spent time and studied you might be able to point out what is factory and what was added, but will you be able to tell me everything on the car? Maybe if you had owned them and was really knowledgeable about the car, but what if you only knew a little bit about it? To simply tell someone they are too confident in what they say does not change facts, and does not validate one way or another anything.

    As to the LXX, I understand it has been used by some for thousands of years, but I also know the additions are not inspired (and they are additions). There were many man made books and ideas that were circulating around the time of the apostles. There were debates of circumcision, there was lawlessness already at work in the early church. There were also other books that are not part of the final Bible. The LXX is nothing more then interpretation and I do not believe that Jehovah has protected it as inspired writing or it would be in the collection of 66 books. The ONLY thing we have from Jehovah is contained within those 66 books and anything taken away or added will have to answer to him. I've already proved that it's wrong as it pertained to the book of Joel and the locusts. If it's wrong one place, it will be wrong another. It is not the Bible, it is men's interpretation of Gods words and I don't care how old it is, this is the case. They have added words that were not inspired! The Bible is meant to be interpreted only after all of the books were put together. You cannot interpret Daniel, Zechariah and many more without Revelation, Mth, Mar, Luk. So therefore the LXX could not have interpreted the meaning of the OT without the NT. This one should be obvious.

    And as well, footnotes can be added to direct someone away to anything anyone wants...

    In closing, all things will be uncovered, and all things will be in the open in Jehovah's time frame. Whether that be anyone here on the db are right are wrong it does not matter, it will be exposed. Out of anyone here my understandings will be the most obvious to be right or wrong because I offer exact dates that the time of the end could begin. So there really is no need for concern from anyone, if it doesn't happen that way I will know I'm wrong and Jehovah will still embrace me because he knows my intentions now. After all, is this not something only you and your father know? And if I turn out to be right, I am simply doing his will, and the job he expected me to do. After all, there is a chance his spirit is at work in me, right?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hey Josh,

    Yes, His spirit is at work in you. I have no doubt about it. I'm also sure that Jehovah appreciates the melody that you play with all the instruments he lovingly and confidently put at your disposal.
     
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    Firebird

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    That was very kind of you, very Brotherly. And with no hint of sarcasm,,,
    May we all gain insight into the Scriptures, these days more than ever, by our own personal study, as well as sharing from each other here.

    "Pray for One another",,,
    Your Brother Ken
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Surely not literal, imo, very little in Revelation is.
     
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