Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 17, 2013.
So said Master Yoda... lol
So, moving these two posts to this thread, I just wanted to touch base on a couple of things of consideration.
Can we determine if scripture speaks of these two as individuals? Let me present the case...
Zech 4:14 "These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth"
"These" /Ãªl-leh = These
"Two" / Å¡ə-nÃª = Two
"Ones" / ḇə-nÃª- = Sons
"Anointed" / hay-yiṣ-hār; = Oil
"These" Define a group of whom we are speaking of, in that of the two previous mentioned as Joshua and Zerubbabel.
"Two" As a noun represents the number in this group. The group were already mentioned in the word "these".
"Ones" Denotes (noun) their position as sons.
"Anointed" Defines their responsibility and position as it pertains to Jehovah's organizational structure.
"Modern theologians, such as John Walvoord, have furthered the point of indivisualism by comparing the "two lampstands" and the "two olive trees" of Revelation 11 to the two golden pipes and two olive trees/branches of Zechariah 4. By the identification of the two olive branches as "two anointed ones" or "two sons of the oil", in Zechariah, this reinforces the literalist interpretation that the two witnesses are two people. The personification of the two witnesses in Revelation, is so prevalent that according to theologian William Barclay, the passage seems to refer to two definite persons." (Wikipedia)
We can also consider the three and a half days these two are said to be dead. These three and a half days cannot be tied to any other time period, such as 1260 days or the like. We also know not all will fall asleep in death, but some of Christs brothers will be changed, therefore the Two Witnesses cannot represent only the whole if they lie dead for three and a half days. (1Cor 15:51)
Also, another thing to keep in mind is that Joshua and Zerubbabel are spoken of as separate from their companions in Zechariah.
Zech 6:9-14 "The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: “Take from Helʹdai, To·biʹjah, and Je·daʹiah what they brought from the people in exile; and on that day, you must go to the house of Jo·siʹah the son of Zeph·a·niʹah along with these who have come from Babylon. You should take silver and gold and make a crown and put it on the head of Joshua son of Je·hozʹa·dak, the high priest. And say to him,“‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah. He is the one who will build the temple of Jehovah, and he is the one who will assume the majesty. He will sit down on his throne and rule, and he will also be a priest on his throne, and there will be a peaceable agreement between the two. And the crown will serve as a memorial for Heʹlem, To·biʹjah, Je·daʹiah, and Hen the son of Zeph·a·niʹah, in the temple of Jehovah."
Here I presented several cases for the fact that these two must be individuals, when only one of them would be enough to show it, but with the total these two must be individuals who as all history shows from Moses and Arron, to Joshua and Zerubbabel, and every instance of two men in scripture represent individuals, speaking for the whole. This has been the way of God, throughout all of history...
My feeling is that the two witnesses are two real individuals. There is nothing scriptural in what I say, it is only a feeling that I have. But I must confess that I have never studied the matter.
I have already read similar arguments in favor of your belief in several biblical encyclopedias and none have convinced me.
I don't believe that the two witnesses are two real individuals also because nothing in the Gospel or in the Paulinian letters even hints such a thing and in addition, there's no reason to believe that Jesus would put two distinct anointed persons as precursors and therefore above their other anointed brothers during the time of the end.
All in all, for me, it just doesn't add up...
I don't believe there is any need for or provision of anything new by way of prophesies, Joshua, if that is what you are saying?
Christ already gave us all the prophesies right up to the temple coming down out of heaven, and the resurrected and other earthlings having to enter it to eat of the trees of life and drink the water of life...ALL way off into the future. (after the 1000 years)
Whether there will be two individuals? We can and will have to wait and see. "Presumptuousness is the same as divination"
The Two Witnesses will no doubt be pointing at the conditions on earth that are fulfilling the prophesies of Revelation, that as it stands today, are just very symbolic and can only be guessed at. Even Armageddon, and Satan is the god of this world, etc. Full disclosure of what is happening with the 8th king, mark of the beast, etc. There is no way room for even more prophesies than what is already foretold, imo.
So....why are you so adamant about the 'Two' being literal? And pointing back at a fulfillment of prophecy in Joshua and Z. having to do with temple rebuilding, not our day and the further gathering of spiritual stones; Christians, as that is the work we are supposed to be doing; making more spiritual stones.
I'm also getting hints of this; are you stating Jerusalem's temple will be rebuilt ?
Please, a yes or no would be good here.
How about understanding of prophecies, and what is to come? How about Moses and Aaron going to Pharaoh? I'm not saying Gods plan is to have the Two Witnesses presenting new prophecies to the world, but simply those that are already in the Bible. Like the 8th king coming, Christ appearing in the clouds, the fall of the constant feature, the disgusting thing standing in a holy place, the time to flee. These are the prophecies that were fulfilled during the Maccabean revolt, and the Jewish war, and will again on a grand scale in the end. This is what I mean... And this is my belief...
I have brothers who believe that John, and that's okay. I happen to believe all of these prophecies were fulfilled two other times in a small way as an example of what is to come on a grand scale.
This matter of individualism isn't guessing or being presumptuous, it's about scriptural understanding, and studying the original language, and connections in scripture.
Look, the scriptures in Rev 11 say it as plain as day, these two are individuals. That's what it says, I'm arguing it means what it says. If anyone thinks it doesn't mean what it says, then prove it. Connect them to a metaphoric number two, show me that they are not intended to mean exactly what it says. The burden of proof does not lie upon the literal interpretation, the burden of proof lies on the metaphoric explanation.
My post #82 in this thread shows grammatical proof these two are individuals...
You seem to think that Gods prophets in history have only presented fuflillments after they have occurred, and that's not how God works. He sends physical men to other men to tell them what is about to occur, before they happen. This is what the Bible says, and that is what all of history says.
Ish 42:9 "See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you."
And then Jehovah will do nothing without first his prophets knowing beforehand what is about to happen.
Amos 3:7 "Indeed, the Sovereign LORD never does anything until he reveals his plans to his servants the prophets."
Because that's what the Bible says...
You do realize that you cannot separate Zechariah 3 and 4 from Rev 11 right?
Rev 11:4 "They are "the two olive trees" and the two lampstands, and "they stand before the Lord of the earth."
Zech 4:11 "Then I asked the angel, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?"
Zech 4:14 "So he said, "These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth."
The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 are Zechariah and Zerubbabel in Zech 3 and 4. They are the two olive trees, and the two lamstands beside the Lord. Both in Rev 11 and in Zech 4.
You may not know, but I've said it many times. I believe when Cornelius was baptized Israel became all of mankind who are faithful, and the temple became spiritual men, along with Christ. Jews, Jerusalem, and the physical temple today have nothing to do with scripture or prophecy in the time of the end, in my opinion.
So no.... I have never thought that... The spiritual temple that will be rebuilt in the time of the end will be the final fulfillment of Dan 9, and will be world wide made up of Christs brothers, and those with them... Have you read my work yet? You would know these things already... http://www.joshuastone7.com/
You see, there is nothing new under the sun, all prophecy is in the Bible, and it will be the job of the Two Witnesses to bring that judgement message to the world when that time comes, and I believe they will have foreknowledge of when the trumpet and bowls will occur, and on what days. That is the miracles they will preform...
Yes I believe that the two witness are two men representing the whole of the saints that will still be remaining on earth at that time. REV 13:7 say's that the beast will wage war with the holy ones and conquer them. but they will not all be killed for what is said in 1Co 15:51 to be true, but the two witnesses will be killed as stated in Rev 11:7 I understand the same way as Joshua on the two witnesses. Regent
OK, thanks for the refresher.
I believe you will be one who gets a leg up on men like me, who have other interests. You will be blessed, because you are one digging into these.
I agree with all you say, and say...'go for it.'
You have a very logical argument there , and it does harmonize in many ways with Revelation.
I just hope I live to see this, although like you say, and its true, we can try to understand these plagues, bowls, etc.
I have a few theories....mostly about the Abaddon angel, and the creatures that come from under the earth to sting mankind.
At this time they seem too far-fetched, though.
Yes, I am also relieved , because I thought you were promoting Zionism on some level.Sorry.
Keep up the good work.
You have a wonderful heart brother, and we have grown close in your time here, you have helped me see some things that I had not quite reached, and I only hope I can do the same for you. I've noticed we have both matured since you have been here, and perhaps we have both sharpened each other. (Prov 27:17) This is our goal is it not, to continue to grow spiritually, in knowledge and maturity, until our Lord is revealed?
I'm sorry I'm not more mature. I jump the gun many times. I try my best to be good, but my flesh is weak.
My heart was broken the last year, and I am still foundering, so I am finding out the hard way about many things.
One thing we will find;
Every one of us makes mistakes. So be cautious, listen more, apply more love and forgiveness, try not to expect more of others , because many people just aren't up to a lot of criticism, ...
and so much more.
Father will not destroy any good people, so we don't have all the weight of the world on our shoulders to try and convert them to our beliefs, as we thought while we go out to 'save' everyone.
That's not our job, nor are we able;
"God makes it grow'.
All Christians are brothers and sisters. In the end, we are all under Satan's knife. Don't think one religion of Christianity is 'the truth', because there isn't one Christian religion out there that has everything right. ..nor one person either.Rev. 12:17
These prophecies? We guess, and conjure, but in the main, we will be surprised when they actually come true.
'Great earthquake...hailstones,...son dark, moon into blood, locusts...', this is all something symbolic, or Jesus wouldn't have said they are 'signs'. So, be careful not to think that by studying even for years...we can 'own' the Bible. God only 'owns' knowledge of the future, imo.
Those 3 letters, IMO. should be our conclusion on most posts, especially prophetic ones...unless we are sure we are a real, inspired prophet....which I know, I'm not.
Pray more, as the days are becoming more evil exponentially now. Satan is moving to accelerate a great tribulation on all the earth.
Pray for each other here, in this 'congregation' of heartbroken, troubled souls, as that is our lot here, isn't it? We are all castaways here, from a religion that is sinking as a ship with huge and many leaks. But God will raise us up and the Bible, and Christ himself, the Savior of faithful souls, ...has his hands under our arms, and daily lifts us up.
Be thankful for that, and feel the power through love of God and Son.
I would like to ask a question to Joshua if it is not to much to give me a answer if all the first fruit of God or in other word the Bride of Christ will be in heaven before the last 7 Bowls of Jehovah wrath will be poured? With proof with the Bible if possible. If the Bride is not their at that time can you give me proof of that with God's Word. Any one else can give me a answer too. Let Revelation be reveal. AMEN. May God's Love be with you all. Regent
Here brother, if you haven't read my short booklet, I will post the five short chapters here;
1. The Joshua Stone
2. Revelation Chronology
3. Beginning of The End
4. The 8th King
5. A New World
The answers are all in there, but to sum up in short, the 7 bowls and 7 trumpets are the same events and occur at the same moments. Meaning the first trumpet and first bowl occur on the same day.
The bride of Christ isn't raised into heaven till the first day of Armageddon when Christ Jesus appears in heaven.
Here is a map of the end for you...
Separate names with a comma.