Wednesday, March 2

Discussion in 'Daily Text' started by Jinnvisible, Feb 27, 2016.

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    Jinnvisible

    Jinnvisible Experienced Member

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    Wednesday, March 2

    When Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms.Jude 9.

    As Michael the archangel, Jesus “had a difference with the Devil” and “was disputing” with that wicked one. The issue involved “Moses’ body.” Recall that after Moses died, Jehovah buried the body in an unknown location. (Deut. 34:5, 6) Whatever evil purpose the Devil had in mind for Moses’ remains, Michael took a courageous stand.



    One reference work notes that the Greek terms rendered “had a difference” and “disputing” are “also used in relation to a legal dispute” and may suggest “that Michael ‘challenged the Devil’s right’ to take Moses’ body.” Yet, the Chief Angel recognized that it was not his place to bring judgment. Rather, he referred the case to the Supreme Judge, Jehovah. Michael thus refrained from overstepping his authority. What a humble attitude!

    w15 2/15 1:6
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    It is scary that the devil had concerns about mosses body what could he possibly want with a dead body except use a facsimile as a puppet to mislead at some latter date?
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings, JehovahIsGod,

    Like you, I can't think of a single reason why the devil would be disputing over bones that have long-since returned from the dust whence it came.

    So let me ask you a question:

    If Christians throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures are spoken of as composing the "the body of Christ," then who could we say composes "the body of Moses?"

    The writer of Jude seems to be expanding on a passage from the Hebrew Scriptures to include Jewish Israel (remember, they will be "grafted back in" according to Romans 11:24 at some point in the future):

    And he proceeded to show me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand in order to resist him. Then [the angel of] Jehovah said to Satan: "Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan, yes, Jehovah rebuke you, he who is choosing Jerusalem! Is this one not a log snatched out of the fire?" — Zechariah 3:1-2, NWT

    As a Jewish Christian, the writer of Jude would have had no trouble making the connection to the "body of Moses" being represented in Zechariah's writings through Joshua, since the high priest represented the people of Jewish Israel... at least until the day Israel demanded their own king. But I digress.

    Where Jewish Israel was under the Law of Moses and thus its adherents became members of the body of Moses, Christians are under the law of Christ, and as a result become members of the body of Christ.

    The similarities between Jude 1:3 and Zechariah 3:1-2 are too uncanny to dismiss, especially if we read Jude from a Jewish Christian perspective, with its unique heritage of faith, tribulation, and endurance hailing back to the days of early Biblical history.

    I'll finish by saying that while we still don't know what the dispute was about, I hope that I've offered some thoughtful notions to help better understand who the dispute might have been about: Jewish Israel, not Moses's corpse.

    (If I were to hazard a guess as to what Michael and the devil were disputing over, I'd say it had to do with the devil trying to argue that Jewish Israel deserved destruction for one thing or another (Job 1:6-10, et al) , not the redemption that will come to them (compare Zechariah 3:4, which may be a reference to the same event as Romans 11:24 discusses, when Jewish Israel's error passes and the veil Jehovah has placed over their eyes is finally lifted (Romans 11:8-11, 32)).

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Interesting commentary on Zech 3 Earthbound, I had not heard that angle before, in that of suggesting Joshua (as representing Israel) depicts the re-grafting into the olive tree of Rom 11. It is always a pleasure when presented with another angle you had not considered before.

    May I ask, by extension do you see Zerubbabel as the second part of the staff in that body of Christ? Then I assume you see the two witnesses as representing all those who worship the true God? Do you see these as two individuals as well in the time of the end?

    The problem I've always been unable to overcome as it pertains to Israel as a people or nation in mass being grafted back in is this; The idea seems to be centered around the moment Jesus is revealed. Scripture tells us that it will be too late at that point. That no proof will be given, only the sign of Jonah perhaps will be repeated in the end, with the two witnesses dead for three days. When Christ is revealed he comes to reap, making it too late to convert.

    Now also, what is Israel today? After 70CE there really isn't anything one can identify as the Jewish people. Would we say "Israel" represents genetics? These have been mixed over the years. Can we say a belief structure? There are many of those within the Jewish faith.

    Let me ask you this; Let's say that at some point the WTS is no more, and there is a call to rebuild a metaphoric Jerusalem (Dan 9), at which point everyone on earth is on equal footing to come into that new group, could it not be said that all groups could come out of a metaphoric Babylon, including many of Abrams descendants? Would this not satisfy Rom 11 with the two Witnesses representing the entire body of Christ uniting all of Gods people new and old under one earthly unified group of true worshipers?

    Peace be with you brother...
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings, JoshuaStone7,

    Speaking only personally, it's been my experience over the years that few things cause as much divisiveness as prophetic matters, primarily because until one is on the other side of a fulfillment and has the unfettered benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we are hindered by a number of influences— most of which we don't really give much thought to because it's so integrated into our perspective. Cultural, religious affiliation, level and capacity of one's understanding, extent of research (Biblical and extra-Biblical), and on the list goes.

    And I confess to being someone formerly who devoted a few decades to prophetic matters, expending the effort to strain my eyes to make out what I could through a mirror darkly, as the apostle Paul described it. And who doesn't want to know what's going to happen? We check out the weather report and adjust our plans accordingly. We stay apprised of world events to get a sense of where we're standing in the stream of time. We plan ahead for trips and journeys. We plan building projects, budgets, and other matters to ensure that we will have what we need.

    Likewise, we appreciate those who feel a calling to be examiners of prophecy, because they can often sound the alarm about a matter that we ourselves haven't noticed.

    Paul, in his letter to the Ephesian Christians, described those gifts we have in men:

    And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers... — Ephesians 4:11

    Each has their respective responsibility, but Paul goes on to say that these gifts in men also have an obligation. That obligation is to see to the edification of the holy ones (or saints, as some Bible translations read).

    Paul elsewhere writes, in his first letter to the brothers at Corinth, that one can have the gift of prophecy, and understand all of the mysteries... yet doesn't have Christlike love, then it all amounts to nothing. And here, too, I have seen in my years on the internet what can happen when one's prophetic view develops into a doctrinal view and the person with the gift of prophecy and understood a great many things when it came to the mysteries slowly develops a harsh tone with others, and intolerant of divergent views. One such example would be the Watchtower organization, which has turned many prophetic views into doctrinal views— but I've seen the same happen with individuals, too. Somewhere along the way, the responsibility of station begins to take front seat to the obligation to the brothers and sisters, and the Christlike love, in turn, becomes more difficult to make out.

    So, personally, I don't invest the time I used to in prophetic understanding and application, for better or worse.

    In the case of this day's choice of daily scripture, I was merely trying to offer a plausible alternative to the usual notion people have that the writer of Jude was talking about Michael and the devil disagreeing about a corpse, and offer that alternative with a few scriptures that might shed additional light on the subject that I've looked at in personal Bible study—beginning with the simple premise that if there is a group of people that scripturally is referred to as the "body of Christ," then it stands to reason that there is/was a group of people before that could be referred to as the "body of Moses," especially since the writer of Jude was himself a Jewish Christian.

    Of Zerubbabel:

    Since I'm writing this post from work, I don't have access to my notes or reference materials. However, briefly, Haggai 2:23 speaks of Zerubbabel as Jehovah's "servant" and as having a "signet ring," which, historically, refers to a king's seal that would be used to seal a letter to its intended, to ensure that no manipulation of the letter's contents could be done before the message reached the intended recipient(s). In Revelation, we are witness to a conversation where the question arises about who has the authority to open the scrolls that were sealed (by a signet ring). (See Jeremiah 22:24, where Jehovah speaks of the signet ring as being on His hand, which likely means that the scrolls that are sealed in Revelation were sealed with Jehovah's signet ring, so to speak, until the one who was authorized to open the scrolls and reveal the messages therein arrived on the scene.

    Anyhow, I can see I'm making this into a TL;DR post (Too Long; Didn't Read).

    In both Haggai and Zechariah, there are indications that Zerubbabel is prophetically a future king. In Zechariah, that king is referred to as "My servant the branch." (Zechariah 3:8; See also, Zechariah 6:13)

    I need to wrap this up, but it IS interesting to note that at Zechariah 6:11 a crown is being placed on the high priest Joshua's head, where one would think it would have been shown as being placed on Zerubbabel's since he was the king at that time. However, Verse 13 reveals that this is a symbolic gesture of when a future high priest will be given a crown, and act as both king and high priest, and that there will be harmony or peace between those two stations (today, by way of example, secular America touts its whole "separation of church and state" spiel).

    The only other account where we see one who is both king and high priest is in reference to Melchizedek at Hebrews 7:1, with the writer of Hebrews going on to say that Christ has become our king and high priest (Hebrews 7:17) after the order or likeness of Melchizedek.

    But I'm writing this swiftly, so as to respect the fact that I am on an employer's clock, and I apologize in advance for any confusion or consternation resulting from my quick response to part of your post. And I'm not even sure that I answered anything you asked, lol. Sorry about that, too. o_O

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Earthbound, so few things nowadays seem to hit me to the core, as this response has... Thank you, I very much appreciate it, it means allot. Your words remind me of what is most important, and how much of a gift we are to each other, and how we neglect that sometimes in our world, and our time.

    Prov 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens his friend."

    I would like to quote just a few things you wrote that I would really like to focus on, and meditate on.

    These words here highlight our responsibility;


    As well probably the most important comment to me in your post is here below;

    All of us could take advantage of these words and meditate on what they mean. Regardless of our "gifts", our obligations remain the same... May we never loose sight of that!

    We are stronger when we encourage each other;

    Mth 18:20 "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

    Heb 10:24,25 "And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near."

    Thank you also for your commentary on Joshua and Zerubbabel. I always welcome new insight on such subjects that give me renewed interest in exploring them again.

    As your new to our forum, you will find that prophecy is what I enjoy in scripture, and yet it doesn't really matter what our gifts are, our responsibility still remains. It reminds me of tempering steel, one can heat and forge the metal for hours, days, or months, but without tempering that steel afterwards it can remain brittle and inflexible.

    Just a brotherly thank you... May you have more then what is normal in Spirit from Jehovah. (2Cor 4:7)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I agree with Josh but unfortunately disagree with you.... :eek: You weren't making this into a TL;DR.... On the contrary ! I can't wait for more ! Just so you know about it, the deciphering of prophecies bores me stiff, which means that I won't necessarily follow your reasoning on intellectual grounds till its logical conclusions but the fruit of your thoughts sounds way promising anyway... ;)

    PS: Please, don't think that I expect from you the "Holy Grail" in relation to the deciphering of prophecies. I don't expect ground-breaking epiphanies from anyone (I'm not against nice surprises though....:p) but just conclusions that are reliable, a minimum rational, documented and that somewhat hold water... which is already the case. :)

    You're not being judged here or having a spiritual "job interview". Please, tell us everything (after many years of "training on the job", we're used to sorting the wheat from the chaff on many grounds.... it doesn't take long. We've learned quite fast to know whom we're dealing with...) !
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings, JoshuaStone7,

    I wanted to ask you: Have you ever factored in that where Jewish Israel is concerned, it is a provisional judgment from Jehovah, and for that reason their fate isn't the same fate as those rejecting Jehovah's sovereignty and the one whom He sent forth?

    I'll try to be brief.

    Compare Romans 11:15 with Revelation 20:5 and you have your missing piece.

    Context: Jewish Israel is currently blinded, according to Romans 11:8, and remain so to this day, right? Until the fullness of the nations have come in, they will remain so. Then, the end. Judgment times are then upon the world at-large and this system of things. But then for Jehovah to open Jewish Israel's eyes as Christ's return is upon us, only to destroy them in those few moments at the end as some sort of too-bad-so-sad-bye-now?

    Sounds a little harsh for the God I've come to know.

    Romans 11:15 is where I would send you.

    For, if by their putting away, the rest of men have been made friends with God, what will their coming back again be, but life from the dead? — Romans 11:15, BBE

    Now, flip over to Revelation 20:5:

    The rest of the dead did not come to life again till the thousand years were ended. This is the first coming back from the dead. — Revelation 20:5, BBE

    What do you make of them?

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I seem to lean to the covenant that was fulfilled in the 70th week in order to understand the covenant to Abraham.

    Dan 9:27 "And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."

    It seems to say here that in this scriptures first fulfillment was the covenant for a Messiah to the "many" which represent the Jewish people. So if that covenant was fulfilled in 29CE when Christ was baptized, and at the half of the week he was cut off, then that brings us to it's concluding with Cornelius baptism and that was the moment the Gentiles were started to be grafted in, the new branch.

    This scripture seems to tell us a couple of things, one that it appears the covenant for the Messiah was fulfilled when Christ came, and that was fulfilled to the Jewish nation. So could we not say that the grafting back into the olive tree occurred during this gathering to Jesus of the Jewish people before the Gentiles were invited? After all he is the olive tree... In order to be grafted back in one had to be there to begin with, so this isn't about Christ himself, it's about worshiping in truth. So then one can say that the disciples themselves were grafted back in firstly, after excepting Christ. Therefore can it not be said that Jehovah's promise to Abraham was fulfilled in Christ Jesus, and therefore in the past?

    Second, can it not be said that the covenant ended at the end of that 70th week? If read literally then the covenant for the Messiah was fulfilled when Christ came to graft natural Israel into the olive tree (himself) and that covenant was completed when the nations were invited to be grafted in when Cornelius was baptized.

    A dual fulfillment?

    So when looking at it like this, spiritual Israel today can be seen in the same light. If JW's have fallen into the same trap as the first century Jews when they had faltered and lost Jehovah's approval, once the WTS comes down they will have a chance to be grafted back in when the new Jerusalem is being built in the time of the end. (Dan 9) Therefore the JW's can be seen as a second fulfillment of the old branch grafting back in, in that of the 1/3 coming through the fire refined like gold. And the new branches of Rom 11 can be all of the great crowd that comes out of Babylon...

    If "Israel" in prophecy of our day represents all those who worship Jehovah in truth, and the JW's represent this courtyard of Jehovah's metaphorical structure, then this scripture rings true in a second fulfillment; "A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in" This would represent the dulling going on in the WTS just like in the first century Jerusalem, until the WTS is done away with so that all mankind can be called out of Babylon into the new Jerusalem that will be built in the time of the end. (Dan 9)

    The first covenant promised to Abraham had to be fulfilled, and then had to pass in order for the new covenant to come (for a Kingdom). And it appears this grafting back into the olive tree is true worship. Whether that be by the first century disciples after Jesus was here, or the new Jerusalem being rebuilt and the JW's grafting back into that new covenant being fulfilled when Christ returns to establish the new kingdom.

    Which all of this tells me that there is nothing left of the old promise to Abraham that was not already fulfilled and completed in that 70th week. It appears that grafting promised in Rom 11 has been going on since the moment Jesus was baptized, and now that Israel represents all true worshipers, there will be a second fulfillment when after the WTS is no more, they will also have an opportunity to be grafted back in when a new Jerusalem will be built, as the great crowd of the new branch will be grafted in all over the world. Which means the great crowd has not yet begun to be gathered.

    If the WTS comes down, and there is a call to rebuild Jerusalem in the time of the end, that would give all mankind, whether JW, or Jew, or Catholic, the capability to come to true worship in the time of the end.

    This all comes down to Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

    What if these two events are separated by 1290 days? What if that's what the scripture is saying? That means the constant feature comes down/the courtyard circled for 42 months, which means 30 days after the 42/months/1260 days end the 1290 days end, which is when the disgusting thing is placed. What if Dan 9 occurs during this time, and those 70 weeks also have a fulfillment in the time of the end and when the WTS comes down there will be a new Jerusalem built in which the disgusting thing is placed 1290 days after the constant feature is removed? That would allow for the gathering of a great crowd, including the Jewish people to be grafted in as new branches, and JW's gathered in as old branches. Just like in the first century the Jews like Paul were the old branches grafted in and the Gentiles were the new branches.

    Just my two cents...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    We've had the discussion on this scripture a few times on here before, I hold to the idea that all faithful ones in the past such as John the Baptist will not be resurrected until after the 1000 year reign of Christ. That they need not see the final battle.

    I believe that the sentence "This is the first coming back from the dead" does not apply to those who come to life after the 1000 years, but to the aforementioned kings "And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings, JoshuaStone7,

    Thank you for the detailed response to my query, as it helps me better understand the general consensus of the board on this subject.

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Earthbound, very good morning to you....

    I wouldn't say necessarily "consensus" as it pertains everything I posted. I'm the only one on here that I know of that believes there will be a resurrection after Satan is destroyed. However, a couple members I've discussed the 70th week with agree to it's past fulfillment in Christ Jesus, and this is not so far from the WTS's interpretation as well, it just comes down to the end time fulfillment that we on here seem to part again. Many believe that physical Israel has an end time significant, where I believe this became metaphoric after Cornelius. I also see the 70 weeks being fulfilled as actual weeks in the time of the end, and not years in it's second fulfillment. That the call to rebuild Jerusalem would come after the 1260 days begin.

    Just to touch base on it, the 70th week in the time of the end would begin the moment Jesus is enthroned (69 weeks after the call to rebuild came), fulfilling the covenant for a kingdom. At the half of that week the two witnesses are cut off (starting the sign of Jonah), then three days later they are resurrected and a message is given to all the world of "everlasting good news". (Rev 14:6)

    I know I've simplified this post greatly, but clarification is available on any detail... :)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Dear Earthbound,

    Nope, there's no general consensus here on this subject. No biggie !

    You'll find some information about how this topic has been broached in the thread whose link is here.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hi Earthbound,

    It reminds me a sentence I quoted in the Quotes thread.

    It's only at dusk that Minerva's owl takes flight.

    Minerva/Athena was the goddess of intelligence, her emblematic bird was the owl. The owl is a nocturnal bird (and the symbol of wisdom because it sees through darkness), dusk is the end of the day, the end of all things at a given moment. This aphorism means that we never really grasp the ins and the outs of a situation before the end of it. It's only when the events come to an end that we begin to understand their meaning. Even though some people may think that they have a good understanding of an historical event, for example, said event will only be thoroughly understood 50 or 100 years later.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    There is nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures that calls Michael the Archangel. It just so happens that Michael was not the Archangel until he had fulfilled his obligation to die as a ransom for mankind. It is only in the Christian Greek Scriptures written after his sacrifice that he is called Michael the Archangel. If he was the angel that was head of all the angels, that would have included Satan. But at that time he was not the head angel. Daniel 10:13 in a Greek interlinear you will see that Michael is called NOT the Archangel but "one of the chiefs, the first ones." If Michael was the Archangel he would not be called "one of the chiefs, the first ones" he would be called the chief angel. He was not at the time Daniel was written, there were other chief angels equal to him in rank. But I know this does not fit in the scheme of things in your own minds so you will no doubt find an unscriptural way to set this understanding aside because it is very uncomfortable to you and you will make that verse say whatever you want. I have seen it all before too many times.

    Frank
     

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