What did Jesus mean, and what does the Bible mean?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by francis son of charles, Sep 22, 2014.

  1. Hi All:

    What exactly did Jesus mean by the expressions below and how can we properly understand them together?

    Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing.+ For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. John 5:19

    If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him.â€￾+ John 14:7

    He is the image of the invisible God, Colossians 1:15a

    frank
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hi Frank,
    It’s a bit hard for me to add anything to these statements by Jesus. We have to look at the setting or scene in which this statement if given. The accusation was the fact that Jesus was doing work on the Sabbath in violation of the Law. (Deu 5:14 and elsewhere) The Hebrew word shabath itself means to cease, desist, rest. Jesus told his accusers that, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.â€￾ To the Pharisees, this appeared to be a contradiction to the written word and tradition that God “restedâ€￾ on the seventh day. Therefore, he couldn’t possibly be working on that Sabbath day. Plus the fact that Jesus was stating that God was his Father, and that would make him equal to God.

    In the Greek, the word dunamai is used here by Jesus. It has the meaning of not having “the power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favorable circumstances, or by permission of law or customâ€￾. Jesus was stating that fact that he received his powers to do anything requiring extraordinary from his father, through Holy Spirit. Jehovah God was the power source. The additional statement of “seeing what his father is doingâ€￾ does not necessarily mean visually. It also has the sense of perceiving with the mind, understanding mentally what is necessary.

    Jesus was the Master Apprentice to His Father, the Master Artist. Whatever the Father does, the Son does “in like manner.â€￾ The Greek homois (hom-oy-oce) means “in the same way.â€￾ The root of that word is where we get (homo)sexual = same sex. We can liken the Son (Jesus) to a young man whose father is a carpenter. (Jesus and Joseph) How appropriate. The father teaches his son how to properly use the necessary tools to become a craftsman. In the following verses, Jesus explains the situation. (Joh 5:20-30)

    Likewise, at John 14:7, Jesus tells his apostles (Thomas and Philip have doubts) who he is and what his role in God’s plan is to be. Philip asks Jesus to “. . .show us the Father . . .â€￾ (Philip still doesn’t get it.) Jesus tries to explain that whatever work that Jehovah wants to accomplish, he is doing so through his Son. He has given him a project/work to accomplish, a job to be done. He explains that He will do the same type of work that the Father would do. All the same quality, all the same plans; no difference. The Father is not on the job site, but the Son is.

    Paul uses language that precisely describes who Jesus is. “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.â€￾ (Col 1:15 NIV) Here comes the interesting part. The Greek word translated as “imageâ€￾ is one that is still used today. It is eikon, from the root word eiko, meaning “to be likeâ€￾. It is similar to the Hebrew word, tselem = image. Now where could that word be used? How about Gen 1:26, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,â€￾ (NIV), and what Greek word would be used in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew into Greek? You’ve got it, eiko!!

    Today, the majority of businesses and corporations us an “Iconâ€￾, spelled with a “câ€￾ but meaning the same thing. What icon does Apple use? What? Yes, an apple. Is the icon of an apple the real thing? Of course not, it “representsâ€￾ the real thing. Let’s go back to Col 1:15. What does it say? Is Jesus God? NO!! He is the “iconâ€￾ of the living GOD, who is Jehovah, His Father. So much for a Trinity. In this particular scripture it also says,
    “. . .the firstborn over all creation.â€￾ The Greek word is prototokos, proto = first, tokos = type. It also says “over all creation.â€￾, which means he was made.
     
  3. Hi Tsaphah:

    Thanks for your lengthy and informed response. That being said (by you) would it be proper to say that Jesus is a Son who mimics the observed behavior of his Father, so well that to a person it would appear that one were actually looking at Jehovah himself, although knowing that he is not? Would it also be proper to say that Jesus' behavior while on earth is the image or likeness of what we would see if God were here himself? I am not a Trinitarian and never have been, Jesus is clearly a created being that has a distinct beginning. But I don't limit him as much as do Jehovah's Witnesses.

    frank
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hi Frank,
    I understand what you are saying about “limitingâ€. To answer your questions, I would have to say Yes, because that is the idea given by the use of the Greek writing. It would also be similar to the Hebrew idea of “likenessâ€. If we look at a father and son standing next to each other, we would see the likeness although there would be a difference. The same holds true with the individual we know as Jesus. It isn’t a mirror image, it is different. I would probably define Jesus as a clone of Jehovah. That is why both Jehovah God and Jesus Christ can say, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.’†(Isa 44:6; Rev 1:8 NASB ) referring to Jehovah God, and “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:†(Rev 2:8; 22:13 NASB ), and, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.†(Rev 22:13 NASB ) referring to Jesus Christ.

    Both are the first and the last of their kind. Jehovah God has no beginning or end, and there is none other like him. Jesus Christ is the first creation by Jehovah God and there is no other like him. He is also the first of his kind to suffer death and the first to be resurrected to a permanent life within himself, indestructible and no other like him.

    The problem that occurred at Nicaea was a difference of opinion between Arius and Athanasius, who were both from Alexandria, Egypt. It is interesting that Arius was called a “Presbyter†while Athanasius was called “Bishopâ€. Arius believed that Christ was not truly divine or equal to God, and he reasoned that God was “self-existent and immutable. He said the Son was not self-existent and therefore could not be God. Athanasius believed otherwise and that is where the Trinity became the leading thought. There were flaws in both opinions.

    Not only was it confusing to those at the council in Nicaea, it has caused confusion ever since. It should not be surprising to those who study the bible because it comes from the god of confusion, Satan the Devil. He has been doing this perfectly, from the beginning and continues until he is destroyed. (Rev 20:10)
     

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