Christian greetings and great to see recent posts from you, brother!

I am planning to respond to this thread but in the interim, can you flesh out (elaborate) what you wrote above? I am wanting to better ensure that I am understanding the thoughts in your topic starter before I put my foot in my mouth as I tend to do sometimes.

--Timothy

 

Christian greetings, brother,

I have to get the laundry going, but in addition to the clarification I'm looking forward to, here's some off-the-cuff remarks I'll throw on the table briefly-- cause the laundry ain't going nowhere.

I disagree here, and here's why:

First, ask a young child about something they really, really like (they "LOVE" such-and-such, in their innocent perception and reason) and have them show you just how much they "love" whatever they had shared with you. Likely, that child's hands will stretch out as far as they can reach, and may even add "and more" or something similar, right? They are attempting, within their present abilities to convey, how consuming this emotion is. The child's mother, for example, is an object of a child's feelings of love, right? And the child is communicating their estimation of that feeling's affect on them, loving that object.

Now, I've read papers and books during the course of my life that ascribe this so-called "love" to the child's natural need for provisioned shelter and food until said child reaches a level of maturity where the child can provide for those needs separate from the parents. Basically, natural dependency so that the species can continue. Sounds reasonable to me if one's trying to dispense with Creation and a Creator. /shrug

But I digress.

Add to that, Song of Solomon, which would not even exist were it not for written words attempting to capture and convey the feelings in the account. On some level, the words touch us, especially those among us who have experienced such love. Connects with us in a way that others themselves have never experienced.

When Adam encountered the woman whom our Creator made for him, his words expressed the internal feelings he was experiencing. I'll add, jokingly, that it was love at first sight-- which was a good thing because there were no other options... Adam had already explored 'em. He was even blessed by his Creator to name her. It wasn't like she came up to him and introduced herself, "Hey, I'm Eve. What's your name?" as Adam stood there dumbfounded and bedazzled in her beauty. It was more like, "Hi! I'm Adam, and your name's Eve."

I agree with this in principle.

However, I'm also considering this:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." —Matthew 5:27-28 BSB

Under the Law of Moses, one would be punished for the transgression of adultery. Under the Law of Christ, if one even dwells on such thoughts, there is found no distinction from acting out on said sin. The world around us argues that if one is condemned for thinking such thoughts, then one might as well commit the adulterous act as well.

We, as believers, on the other hand, are commanded otherwise:

Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. —Proverbs 4:23, NIV

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. —Colossians 3:5, ESV

Again, there are none to be found here which a man cannot love yet not act out upon, as Jesus noted with the example of adulterous thoughts.

This would seem to me to disagree with what you wrote:

While "our actions are all that matters to the outside world," God is far more interested in the things going on within us that the outside world doesn't see. Even thoughts one hasn't "actioned" for all the world to see.

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. —1 John 3:20, ESV

Finally:

“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.” —Jeremiah 17:10, ESV

If this translation / rendering holds up, I am left with the impression that our Creator will be considering intentions when He "gives every man... according to the fruit of his [actions]."

An extreme example, I know, but what about the mentally challenged and handicapped prone to violent outbursts yet capable of love. They certainly do not intend to cause damage and harm around them, do they? (OK, some do, but: again, intention). And such ones are capable, are they not, of demonstrating acts of love in their lucidity?

Ugh, the clock insists on its relentless course, so I need to wrap this one up.

...More to follow...

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
a believer named Timothy

 

I had to chuckle, because I have known kids who would tell you that they, in fact, DO feel more love than another child for the same subject. Because from their perspective (an infantile and self-centered perspective, admittedly because empathy hasn't been developed) they do.

Empathy, as you know, is having the capacity to put one's self in another's perspective, position, or situation so as to feel what they are feeling or experiencing by putting ourselves in that person's place; fellow-feeling. And if we ourselves have already been in that person's place, and experienced what this person is now experiencing, or now has as far as perspective, et al.

I've come to appreciate that compassion is always looking for opportunity and empathy is the trigger, of course. By way of example, Jesus' compassion throughout his ministry to the first-century Jews, and even Gentiles, is a matter of scriptural record.

So please allow a question:

Who has more compassion for a leper? Someone who's never had leprosy but can imagine how it must be, or a person who HAS had leprosy and has experienced the relief in recovery from it?

Both the person who has never personally experienced leprosy and the one who has had leprosy demonstrate similar outward acts other humans would perceive as associated with compassion. Which of the two is, in fact, more compassionate than the other?

Mind you, compassion has its place. After all, it is not given to us to know another's heart. The Bible warns us that the heart is treacherous and asks the rhetorical question "and who can know it?"

I'll go on record here and admit that while I love my wife dearly, there are times when my actions or words sure don't demonstrate the love I declare for my wife. And apart from the bottom line that I may love my wife as much as life itself, I am, at my heart, a sinful creature with an inherited fallen nature. I have said some of the stupidest and most hurtful things to this woman whom I tell others without hesitation is my beloved. Love certainly wasn't working acts an observer would recognize as love.

Yet there it is. If I love my wife, why speak in such a way to her? Is it not because of the "war in my members," the conflict between my fallen self and the redemptive process I am being brought through before receiving my inheritance?

My point here, I think, is that just as feelings— including love— are not unfailingly reliable, neither do actions unfailingly and reliably reflect the feelings "behind the scenes," as it were.

We're both fathers, so we both know that an infant can both convey what they are feeling and to what extent they are feeling. LOL

Having said that, I am in agreement with you that the "outside world" has no awareness of any feeling, even love, that we may be experiencing unless we have an avenue by which to communicate that inner experience as we are able. You've mentioned actions and words, and I am in agreement with you here, as well.

Even our facial expression can convey volumes! As a father, I love my sons, but my look of disapproval at diverse times— while the "outside world" would perceive anger rather than love... was fostered by love. It was not a look of disapproval, per se, or anger-- but out of love was a look of expression of loving concern, even an injured love on some occasions as they moved through adolescence and into their own adult stage of living.

Yes, there was action (the expression), but did it communicate love as perceived by my son? In other words, my son has to interpret this as sourced in love and concern, and not just as anger and frustration-- or just not liking what-ever. And that is going to depend on his own heart, surely. And although I also communicated with words (action) as moved by my love for them, it still fell to them to perceive the love behind the words, and that depended on their own heart... and ideally act in such a way that demonstrated that they perceived my facial expressions and words in the way I was motivated to convey.

Again, as far as the outside world, I agree that feelings are "irrelevant" in the outside world's estimation, and, arguably, our own since we are inherently inclined toward self. Sayings such as "actions speak louder than words" and "prove it" are still common phrases in the outside world that can only judge a man by "outward appearance." (John 7:24).

Our actions matter, agreed. Specifically, as far as the outside world, which can only judge us on observable data.

But our Father is far more interested in what's going on behind the actions. The heart behind the actions. The inclination of that heart. And not only that, He consistently counsels us to try to understand our heart, and its inclinations. To be aware of them and grow in discernment between inherited-natural inclination and spiritual inclination. (2 Corinthians 13:5; Romans 7:23).

Jesus likewise addresses the feelings and intentions in relation to what is demonstrated to the outside world:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well. —John 7:25-26 BSB

And there are other accounts that can be pointed to, as well.

Are intent and feelings meaningless? To the outside, fallen world? Sure. But to our Father, these are the wellsprings from which all action flows. (Matthew 7:17-23)

No dispute from me that people can act contrary to their feelings. And that's been mentioned by both of us.

But was it only Adam's actions that mattered?

Again, I am of the perspective that his actions only manifested what was already at work in his heart. After all, our Creator is teaching us to benefit ourselves. (Isaiah 48:17) As believers, we have been undeservedly given a spiritual awareness of the fallen nature at work within us. In Adam's case, his inaction as Eve was exchanging conversation with the Tempter speaks as loudly as would have any action he could have taken, does it not?

Gotta close again, sorry. Life, chores, and all that stuff.

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy

 

I have a few more minutes here, and thought I'd spend them responding, off-the-cuff-sorry! --because I'm on the clock with the home domestics before it's back to the grind tomorrow... but anyhow. . .

"Is it not deeds {that we are judged on?}"

Sure, if we were still living under the Law of Moses.

But we aren't, are we?

As Christians, we've been given understanding into the foundation of the Law of Moses. The curtain is pulled back and behind that panorama of laws governing every aspect of life and where animals died in the stead of the sinner, that offender against Jehovah God Himself— we are shown that the heart of the problem is Man's heart.

And no law can overturn that quagmire. It can only be replaced, and that's where the Law of Christ takes us to the next level of understanding the process He is bringing us through as He teaches us to benefit ourselves. It plows the hardened soil of our heart, overturns deeply-rooted things that the Law of Moses would never have resolved-- and couldn't, so long as animals kept having to die in the stead of the sinner.

That's changed.

If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. —Hebrews 10:26-27 BSB

"...no further sacrifice for sins remains..." is a game-changer because under the Law of Moses, one offered their sin sacrifice and went about their day and life, good or bad.

No repentance necessary, mind you.

Yes, the outworking of sin is externally observable through action (and consequences thereof) but the heart of the matter, pardon the pun, is the heart.

That is to say, brother, I believe that the Law of Christ takes us behind the curtains, as I mentioned above, and provides us with an internally observable perspective of our fallen self.

I do not need to enter into an adulterous relationship in order to transgress, under the Law of Christ. Dwelling or even entertaining thoughts on such matters in the privacy of one's own mind is just as an affront to our Holy God as acting on those thoughts is. Worse, because of the in-dwelling of holy spirit as God is with us by means of the Helper in the same temple of our body.

I've come to be convinced that thoughts have latent power. Everything we know as Creation was first conceived by Him and then Spoken into existence. Just as thoughts have power, so do words-- but rather than digress on that one... best to get back on-topic here.

But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. —James 1:14-15 BSB

So, no, I would disagree that we're judged on deeds but get a free ride if we only dwelled on such things, if that's what you were asking as far as deeds (above).

{More to follow}

--Timothy

 

{[Placeholder]}

Genesis 4:7; James 1:14-15

{Note to myself: Two scriptures that came to mind too late last evening to do much more than hope I could remember until morning so I could write them down for this discussion, but they seemed pertinent to some of this topic. No time this morning to do more than insert them in a placeholder post.}

 

For the sake of open disclosure, I have yet to read the remainder of your response-- and will do so still, but want to type this out before I forget what I want to say here.

Maybe this is one of those Arian/Athanasius-type subjects, but this might help me:

In the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is found:

How you have fallen from heaven,
O day star, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O destroyer of nations. You said in your heart:
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God.
I will sit on the mount of assembly,
in the far reaches of the north.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.” — Isaiah 14:12-14 BSB

For many/most believers, this is a reference to the angel behind what went down in Eden. Satan, for most believers out there. But whether it is, or another, isn't necessarily pertinent to my reservations in the perspective you're offering as far as sin not being sin until there is action of some sort.

Isaiah is inspired to record what he couldn't otherwise have known: what the "son of the dawn" was thinking. But God knew, just as He knows the secret person of our own heart, right? And it is these thoughts the "son of the dawn" was having which lead to trouble. No good can come of this whole "I will" do this and "I will" do that stuff. Jesus made it clear: "not MY will but God's Will." That's the goal as we bring every thought into subjection. (2 Corinthians 10:5)

But not because those thoughts we need to bring into subjection lead to sin-- but because such thoughts are sin as far as putting on the obedience of Jesus Christ, that he exemplified. Not my will, but the Will of Him Who sent me.

Actions borne of sinful, self-wilful thoughts are seen by others, sure. But it's merely the external manifestation of what was already there for God Himself to see. Setting aside God's Will for one's own is sin. Doesn't matter at that point what comes of it, as a Christian living by the Law of the Christ. If there's any action to be carried out here, it's bringing such thought(s) into captivity, with God placing the responsibility at our feet-- although not without a Helper from our Father.

Sorry for the brevity, and I do still need to read the remainder of your post, but this is where I'm not understanding your perspective, especially.

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy, a believer

 

Hi Joshua and you all. About two weeks ago I wrote a letter to the Writing Committee of the WT about what love, agape is because at this time the circuit oversees have a talk about what agape is and about the importance of love. I happened to visit congregations in two different circuits and hear this same talk from two different circuit oversees. But unfortunately the WT organization and other Bible commentators don't understand what love, especially agape is. So I tried to explain it to them in a letter. Also why they still have not understood it. So here is what I wrote them:

February 17, 2024


Hello Brothers in the writing committee,


I have remarked that there is a need to get a more correct understanding of love, agape.

This is evident from the fact that Anglo-Saxon and Nordic Germanic peoples are often perceived as cold people. And unfortunately the Governing body consists almost exclusively from brothers of Anglo-Saxon origin.

I have also been among Latinos, French and Slavic and Finns and I have experienced warmth much more among them than among Anglo-Saxons.

I don’t mean that Angol-Saxons are worse as people than the rest. But there are things Anglo-Saxons are oblivious about. But there are also good qualities in which Anglo-Saxons usually exceed, namely following rules. Anglo-Saxons are usually not so emotional and that is why it is easier for them to follow rules. Anglo-Saxons are therefore more “robotic” if you allow me to use this term.

Following rules is directly related to righteousness. So that is a good thing, if the rules are from the Bible.

But that is not enough for salvation, because if there is no love, righteousness is worth nothing.

That is what apostle Paul tried to point out:


1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all.


Also Jesus Christ was clear about that:


Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot tolerate bad men, and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars. 3 You are also showing endurance, and you have persevered for the sake of my name and have not grown weary. 4 Nevertheless, I hold this against you, that you have left the love you had at first. 5 “‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first. If you do not, I will come to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.


I think Latinos, French, Slavs, Greeks and Finns in the world know what love is. But unfortunately Anglo-Saxons have misunderstood what love, agape is, because of their lack of this kind of love. And that is likely the reason why biblical dictionaries created by Anglo-Saxons have failed to get a true and right definition of what agape is.

These dictionaries claim that agape can be without warmth, like politeness and avoidance to disturb or just to fill someone’s needs.

But what do the scriptures reveal about what is agape really?

We have to find all the scriptures where agape is used and see the context.

The Greek Septuagint is especially good, because it reveals how agape was used in the daily language.

The scriptures reveal that love, agape, is always a warm feeling. Whereas righteousness differs from love, because righteousness is not based on a warm feeling toward anything, but instead a compulsive feeling to do what is right.

Agape love is in fact the feeling to like some one or some thing.

And we all know what it is to like something.


Maybe people who are unable to like their enemies feel that they have to find an alternative definition to love, because Jesus commanded us to love one’s enemies, in order to get an excuse and justification not to love or like one’s enemies.


But there are examples in the Bible about real love for enemies, or adversaries. Jesus himself being an example of that. Here an example:


Luke 22:50 One of them even struck the slave of the high priest, taking off his right ear. 51 But in reply Jesus said: “That is enough.” And he touched the ear and healed him.


Luke 23:33 And when they got to the place called Skull, they nailed him to the stake there alongside the criminals, one on his right and one on his left.

34 But Jesus was saying: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Furthermore, they cast lots to distribute his garments.


Another example is Stephen in Acts 7:59 As they were stoning Stephen, he made this appeal: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, kneeling down, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this, he fell asleep in death.


That is what a warm feeling, true love, agape toward adversaries makes possible.

When a Christian has such a warm feeling toward adversaries, he or she can stay hopeful of a potential change of attitude in one's enemies. Because we have no right to judge, so we must hope for the best about our enemies until Jesus judges them.


David is also a good example in what really is love, agape for one’s enemies.


For example after Saul died David expressed his deep love he had for him, despite the fact that Saul was his enemy.


2 Samuel 1:21 You mountains of Gil·boʹa,

May there be no dew or rain upon you,

Nor fields producing holy contributions,

Because there the shield of mighty ones was defiled,

The shield of Saul is no longer anointed with oil.

22 From the blood of the slain, from the fat of mighty ones,

The bow of Jonʹa·than did not turn back,

And the sword of Saul would not return without success.

23 Saul and Jonʹa·than, beloved and cherished during their life,

And in death they were not separated.

Swifter than the eagles they were,

Mightier than the lions.

24 O daughters of Israel, weep over Saul,

Who clothed you in scarlet and finery,

Who put gold ornaments upon your clothing.



I googled and found a compilation of scriptures with agape in the Hebrew scriptures in the Greek Septuagint, please take a look:


https://loveofgodproject.org/2013/02/agape-septuagint-verses/


And scriptures with agape in the Christian Greek Scriptures


https://loveofgodproject.org/2013/02/agape-new-testament-verses/


So, because love is a warm feeling when we like something or someone, we might ask, what chemical substance is giving this warm feeling of pleasure. Scientists have found that it is a molecule called oxytocin that causes the feeling of love in humans and animals.


When we inadvertently or intentionally cause a release of this love-substance we become loving in many ways as described by apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 13.

When we are under the influence of love, the substance called oxytocin, we become automatically in accord with what love is:


4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


So we don’t even need to constantly analyze how to behave, instead we need to feel love and a good attitude toward others will follow automatically.


2 Timothy 2:22 So flee from youthful desires, but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a clean heart.


1 Corinthians 16:14 Let everything you do be done with love.



With brotherly love Jan Kosonen

 

Thanks Joshua for your reply, it was very informative to get your reaction to the statements I had in my letter. Now I can guess the reaction of the brothers in the Writing Committee. I did not expect someone would link this to Nazi ideology. In Wikipedia the term Anglo-Saxon is explained if you want to know what I wanted to say.
But don't you think it is a weakness that the Governing body is not composed of French, Italian, South Asian, South American Latios etc?
And Samuel Herd as a single black there is maybe held there just like a mascot, to virtue signal?

 

Isn’t love a feeling? I can’t understand these scriptures otherwise.

1 Peter 4:8 Above all things, have intense love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.


1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love.


There are different kinds of feelings as we know, joy, anger, sadness, calm, stress, guilt, excitement, boredom, frustration, fear etc. And love which is the best of all.


When you feel love you don’t fear. When you feel love toward someone you are unable to be angry at that person.

So that is what we need to do, let the love flow in your body. If it is difficult, we need to pray for help in this regard.

 

Christian greetings, Jan,

...and apologies if I'm interjecting in the discussion between @Joshuastone7 and you. Just some thoughts here...

I wouldn't presume to suggest that there were no notable distinctions insofar between the seventy nations Jehovah created before choosing Abraham to bring into existence a nation for Himself. The differences included not only genetic characteristics, but also language, social, philosophical, and religious views and practices.

The scriptures themselves delineate without fail between Jew and Gentile from the Mosaic Covenant and to the fulfillment of what the Mosaic Covenant could only promise and point to. It is reasonable, then, that the Jews would have a different view of love from that which Gentiles did in their time of separation from Jehovah God. Sure, there would be commonality found among Humankind in general... the natural love of a mother for the babe drawing sustenance from her breast, for example. Or, the exchange of love between husband and wife not only in moments of intimacy, but in word and deed in all their waking moments, even as Christ loves his bride, and the bride's faithful love given to her husband.

The scriptures also declare that there remains no longer that distinction between the Gentile and the Jew.

I am reminded of the words countless newlyweds have heard: "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder," which Jesus said to the Pharisees on one occasion. God put asunder and wrought seventy nations into existence and chose a man to seed a nation to bring forth the means by which that which He had put asunder would again be joined together. (Mark 10:9; Matthew 19:6)

Of course, this only takes place through the transformative process of one's living on the path set by Jesus Christ, living as a believer. Maturing through the fellowship we have with our Father in the heavens through the holy spirit bearing witness within us, convicting us as believers and everything that follows that moment.

This doesn't apply to those one would describe as "wordly" because the view which love is nothing akin or derived from that which the natural, carnal man thinks or even comprehends as love is beyond the worldly to comprehend.

Easy example: The "world's" view of love includes the view that when it comes to marriage it's ok to "try before you buy" and is abundantly comfortable in sharing intimacy (extra-marital sex) which the Creator deigned exclusively for a husband and wife-- blind, as the world is, to this divine portrayal and connection with what Jehovah would bring into existence by means of a seed.

We ourselves certainly wouldn't know what real, true love is if we hadn't felt that cut at our heart when we are caused to comprehend what Jesus' death cost God, and for what? [[The likes of me, miserable wretch that I am??!!]] That moment, that instant of conviction sets the baseline by which we thereafter approach others, does it not? (John 13:35)

Speaking for myself, I am not a reader of hearts. Most days, I'm compelled to realize and acknowledge I can't read my own.

If you are asking if there's a perceived weakness, though, I suppose that's possible, and even to be expected if one is expecting cultural, national, genetic diversity --and basing qualification of station on said distinctions.

It's just as possible that if there was a broader diversity of racial distinctions on the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, there would be people who saw this as only being done to satisfy those complaining of a lack of diversity.

And around and around it goes, just like that.

Personally, I'm more interested in what is coming from their declarations than which nationality or genetic path they are the result of, what they promote, teach, and expect others to promote and teach in order to secure organizational approval.

Didn't intend to ramble on this long, lol!

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy
a believer

 

Hi Timothy, nice to meet you. I am always especially happy to get to know new people who are of the anointed, because we can relate to each other.

And thanks for your comments on my posts. I am a big believer in diversity. And I have always been. Now this year I thought I will visit different congregations in Stockholm where I live, despite being wrongly disfellowshipped for apostasy 16 years ago.

I know well 5 languages besides English which are Finnish, Swedish, Russian, French and Spanish. But some Latvian and Arabic too. So I have visited and observed different language congregations: two English congregations, 3 Spanish congregations, one Finnish congregation, a French speaking group, 2 Russian speaking congregations and several Swedish speaking congregations. Some of them in areas that are mainly ethnically Swedish and others that are in areas that are mainly migrant areas, and therefore these congregations consist mainly of migrants of different origins.

My observation is that the most diverse congregations are the most spiritually vibrant congregations. I get that feeling listening to the comments during the meetings.

Some weekends I have visited 3 different congregations. Now it is easy, on jw.org you can find all meeting places and meeting times. I got to know that just about 2 months ago.


So my conclusion is in accord with many others that people from the same backgrounds and ethnicities are more similar to each other. But by mixing different ethnicities we can learn from each other. One “race” is good at something and another “race” is good at something else. Of course there is diversity also within the same “race” too.


In the Western world it has become negative even to speak about the existence of races. But the Bible uses that so I think I can use that word too.


Acts 7:19 This one dealt cunningly with our race and wrongfully forced the fathers to abandon their infants so that they would not be kept alive.


Acts 10:28 He said to them: “You well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or approach a man of another race, and yet God has shown me that I should call no man defiled or unclean.

 

Well said Timothy,
This reminded me of 1 John 4:7 Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. 9 By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins. 11 Beloved ones, if this is how God loved us, then we are also under obligation to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

And not only that, but Jesus himself loved us also and wanted to give himself as a ransom sacrifice for us.

 

Oh, me, too! Diversity is self-evident in Creation as well as in those existing outside of [our] Creation, including angels capable of exhibiting what I interpret as earnestness when dealing with Lot's family in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Angels can be faithful... or unfaithful. In our Creation, diversity can be seen in the flora as well as the fauna. As someone who has cared for abandoned cats and a few dogs over the course of my lifetime, I can testify to the diversity I had the joys (and sorrows) unique to each one.

And you'll get no debate from me that appreciation can really only come from encounters with these diversities. As I recall, District Conventions were a great example of diversity, when I attended the Pontiac Silverdome location (it's been since relocated). A great scene of diversity and a commendable example of that special exchange of fellowship that takes place when we're not otherwise hurting or killing each other in that milieu in which believers today find themselves to varying degrees and personal cost.

Both have diversity in their populations. Two disparate fruitages come of said diversity.

Would a place like the Bronx or the ghettos of India be a better place for people to live, if there were more diversity there?

The problem isn't diversity... it's the heart of man.

And that problem's solved easy enough: Adamic death. It's there, waiting for us and occasionally looking at its watch.

Diversity is a seasoning for fellowship between believers. On that, you will get no debate from me, as well. Cultures are so beautifully nuanced and rich in history. Fields of flowers, as it were, spread by the Owner of the Fields.

Sounds like you've been blessed with the likes of Psalm 133:1, very nice!

One hesitation for me here, though. "My observation," as you mentioned, could be very different for the next person. In other words, what you had the joy of experiencing may not be the case for another-- a believer who attended various congregations and was not warmly welcomed, did not experience the Christian love that is to be present. And another believer, attending still other diverse congregations is discouraged when they find men vying for congregational appointments, and backbiting amongst the congregations.

The problem's not diversity. It's the heart.

It might be a language/translation thing here, but there is only one race as far as the Bible has revealed: Man.

Ethnicity and /or cultural differences, certainly. As one would expect, upon learning that the Gentiles originated in the seventy nations Jehovah (diversified) Man into via the sons of Noah. (Genesis 10) Especially once one factors in the development of a tribe-then-nation of Man that develops absolutely cut-off from his Creator. No awareness that He even exists.

Not hard to imagine, since that's pretty much where each of us started down the Path as a believer. We didn't know God.

Until we did.

And from that time onwards, it seems as thought we've always known God, believed.

Gotta wrap this up, though. Time to feed fur-babies.

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy
a believer.