What is the 'House of God' Today...and Is it the Temple?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by John S, Mar 4, 2016.

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    John S

    John S Member

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    Joe said;



    "There is a predestination thing that I do not even claim to understand that is spoken of in scripture and yet there it is."

    And he quoted the scriptures that follows the thinking of Christians through the ages; Romans 8...Ephesians 1.

    Now...what we may agree upon is that the whole concept of a sacrifice for sin, and a government selected from among earthly hopefuls would be selected...was all in the planning stage before earth was even physically formed.

    Even Christ himself, was possibly pre-planned to become a human someday, to experience for himself the real experience for he LOVES us as his newest brothers and sisters/ sons/whatever place we have in his heart. So...he KNEW we are self-effacing, and sacrificing, and unselfish in love as he designed it in us from the start. So....like a faithful father, mother, or grandparent, even....knowing SOMEONE was going to kick-off the ball, and eat from the tree, or experiment with freedom of choice....it was a given that OTHERS would suffer because of childbirth, neighbor, or 'collateral damage', if you will...and the Creators would have to instruct us in what to do to restore the balance.

    Isn't this exactly what They have done?

    The Big Picture. Again, I relate the concept that we are not all alone in this universe, as we all know already. Did God see the future? Maybe. Maybe he only needed to see what was before him: that is....billions of creatures he/they created...with freedom to chose good and bad.

    KNOWING many would chose ...BAD. Knowing death and destruction was PART of the payment for HIS decision to bring 'freedom to choose 'good or bad'. sin and death is a payoff...just as eternal life is.

    Sugar....look at sugar.

    High energy. But lasts only a little while, and side-effects are 'iffy'...weight gain, tooth decay...gut worms/ mold, and whatever else sugar addicts into our lives. But...are we going to say sugar is evil? Because God created sugar...beets, cane, stevia.?

    Look at human choice.

    Materialism, works of the flesh. Temporary gratification. Greed, lust, murder, capitalists running amok...wherever you look...people getting 'high' even temporarily on drugs.....and destroying their lives and others just for that moment of pleasure.

    Stupid? Oh yeah.

    So...will we blame God? The world does. But they do not give him credit for their life, nor do they accept the blame for being lazy, selfish, stubborn, and too independent on their own deviousness, to walk with God to hammer out the tougher, yet wise, and eternal choices.

    God and Christ always seem to us to 'take the long way home'. Yet, we ALWAYS...in the end....see their wisdom.


    Christ's sacrifice, the Kingdom of the Sons of God, our suffering and a life of trials, has been planned from the beginning.

    The Kingdom is a shield for earth, in a powerful and real place whereby mankind well never have to worry about being over-ran by beings from elsewhere who come with more knowledge, power, and invisibility....EVER AGAIN!

    The BUCK STOPS HERE!

    Joe, myself, and many other anointed feel it inside. The determination to fight. Fight for you, here on this site. We can't wait to get the power to... with Christ ....grab these demons and punish them for what they've done. And we can't wait to feed the hungry. Stop the slaughter of animals....humans, children... Aahhhgg! and the Resurrection.....!!!!???

    Icing on the cake, baby! Wonderful...praise Father and Son. Rejoice brothers and sisters. All good things come to those who wait.

    We are EAGERLY AWAITING THE revealing of the Sons of God!

    Are we so shortsighted, that we cannot see THEY would have planned ahead before they created us? Might we think God and Christ that stupid? To place a poisonous tree right in the middle of the place they and all their kids would live, and not think about the ramifications ?

    This is HOW I know the GB is not anointed, really...or I strongly suspect nobody that has resided in power at Bethel for at least 70,80 years has the spirit. Because average publishers and people in Christendom are figuring these things out, and down through the ages too....but Bethel seems like a bunch of idiots, to me...really! It is obvious they are not even trying or maybe Christ has put a veil upon their eyes so the Good News is not entering their hearts.

    Anyways...not my place to judge...I know.! I know! ....OK!
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    John S, let me ask you a question, with all do respect, and Christian brotherhood...

    Where would countless of people be today if the WTS had never been? If the trinity is false worship, how would countless of people be worshiping today? Would any of us here be where we are at?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Good post Frank, very insightful.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    This is a complex subject, because it approaches concepts we don't really know much about;

    namely, how does Jehovah interact with time?

    "For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will,"

    - Ephesians 1:5

    There are a few ways to read this really -- on-the-surface conclusion could be read as "predestination".

    But digging a bit deeper, the hard questions:

    1. Did Jehovah know who the "sons" would be before they were born?

    [seems so, and certainly Jehovah could easily know who they would be; he is outside of time in this universe]

    2. Did Jehovah orchestrate genetics / parents / environment for those sons so they would "become sons"?

    [we don't know, but it runs contrary to the challenge Satan imposed on mankind - free will worship of Jehovah despite circumstance]

    ^ if true, this eliminates predestination, in which case we opt for other understandings.

    .... another way to read Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 is:

    "God foreordained that SOME humans would be adopted as his own sons"

    SOME vs YOU specifically changes the entire understanding; it becomes a prophecy in a sense, rather than predestination.

    Which I would argue is the correct understanding considering everything else Paul said about "proving ourselves" "running the race" "vessels of wrath and vessels of honor" etc.
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi SingleCell,

    Do you believe that Jehovah deals with any human on a personal individual basis?

    Is anything too extraordinary for the most High?

    Isaiah 46:
    8 “Remember this, that YOU people may muster up courage. Lay it to heart, YOU transgressors. 9 Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; 10 the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do’; 11 the One calling from the sunrising a bird of prey, from a distant land the man to execute my counsel. I have even spoken [it]; I shall also bring it in. I have formed [it], I shall also do it.

    Jeremiah 1:
    :5 “Before I was forming you in the belly I knew you, and before you proceeded to come forth from the womb I sanctified you. Prophet to the nations I made you.”

    Jehovah has been doing foreordination and predestination for a long time and there is no reason to believe otherwise unless you listen to men and not the word of truth.

    What is the big deal to believe that someone or anyone for that matter could not be predestined for Jehovah's purposes?

    Yes Jehovah did know the sons before they were born - his word says so.

    Did He orchestrate or did he know in advance how different ones would turn out?

    I cannot speak for Jehovah on this - he is the one who knows. And He does know!!!

    Satan has nothing to do with the foreordination that comes from Jehovah. He actually opposes it and tries to stop it.

    Just some thoughts in answer to you.

    Have a blessed day.

    Joe
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    SingleCell, hello

    This matter of foreordination; a difficult idea for sure. That is why I say we can possibly agree on the part, that the concept of the sacrifice, and selection of the sons of God was planned, as the scriptures reveal...even if we don't agree with particular individuals being groomed for these positions beforehand.

    In defense of Joe's comment, and the degree of foreordination of individuals specifically...or that rulership qualities are in the DNA of mankind, just as artists, musicians, mechanics, teachers, are predisposed at conception with these peculiar properties .

    And the fact: Father Jehovah has done this before; chosen specific individuals , in time ....to fulfill prophecy.(as Joe said) We need look no further than the Apostle Paul, Jeremiah, and even Cyrus, whose name, even, was called ...what...200 years before he was born?

    Greatest of all? Jesus Christ. So many prophecies about him were foretold in detail; place of birth, escape to Egypt, betrayal for 30 pieces of silver, apostles fled, whipped, clothes cast for lots, dies outside city,

    Born into line of Judah/David

    It is overwhelmingly obvious, isn't it? Father looks ahead in time.

    'Jehovah': he causes to become

    We cannot do this. Him? "Is there anything too remarkable for him to accomplish"? (or the gist of that)

    I know , in my case, I can look back on my childhood, remembering things that happened to me...accidents avoided, near misses with death, temptations from Satan, 'angels' arriving from the Kingdom Hall to teach me, and bring me up even when my parents failed.

    Jehovah's hand was there...all through it.

    And that, SingleCell, is an answer to your question regarding the WT Society, and truth in the earth. Yes, they have played a big part in bringing truth to me, and many others. At one time, I thought they were the only ones in the earth doing this, that is, until I went to churches of different types and saw the love in these, and the intense Bible readers there, too.

    I am upset with WT: yes. But....the story is still being written, isn't it? Something about a fat lady....singing?

    That is why when I received my experience and the flow of the spirit that day for me personally, I tried to get the truth brought out, and through a C.O., I endeavored to take a message to New York; 'There are people being anointed, and all this 'Great Crowd', selection and preaching to 'save' them, or 'find them' is nonsense". And other teachings...like non-partaking at Memorial. Shocking! We ALL should partake, definitely.

    So, we shall see if they straighten up, and start re-establishing what is true, and leave off hanging onto fabrications of lies started and perpetuating by evil-intentioned, proud men, as Franz did, when he altered the NWT on purpose to frame falsehood from truth. (and I have shown it over and again how he and other WT Society writers have purposely deceived millions away from the anointing and the good news truth.

    This is murderous, criminal activity, and will be judged by the One God commissioned to judge the entire inhabited earth. ASIDE from the fact these men pushed God's Son out into the cold, and usurped his position as the Word of God...and the anointed Sons he selected as demon inspired.

    Sinning against the Holy Spirit in this manner is obvious to me.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    I'm sorry Joshua, you are the one that asked about WT's crediting with being a repository of truth. Of course there is merit, but they also must be judged severely as they have long ago taken the stand : "We are the prophets, and only us."...and "Ours is the only truth!".....not Jesus' words at all.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I do!

    But I'm very skeptical of these sorts of claims - I came out of evangelical and 7th day adventist churches, where everybody receives messages from God on a daily basis about the minutiae in life :)

    No sir!

    Thanks Joe! I don't disagree, nor do I agree :) My last post was basically saying "there are a few ways to look at this"

    AND IF we accept the version of "predestination" we have other problematic conclusions necessarily following, which don't make much sense IMO.

    But honestly, I don't have a strong opinion about these matters - everyone will stand or fall as individuals; my "understanding" of spiritual matters lies firmly in a the realm of open-minded concept, and not "doctrine".
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Absolutely! In Jesus case however, we're dealing with a completely different set of attributes, not shared by the little flock.

    Namely - he existed before the universe, he created the universe!

    Jesus wasn't "predestined" to be in the line of David, he was sent explicitly to be in that line.

    In the case of the "little flock" we're dealing with Jehovah seeking men like Job, blameless in their generation under trial.

    This introduces a host of conceptual quandaries ... ones that we don't have answers to, other than by way of deduction.

    In other words, agreed: when the fat lady sings :)
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi SingleCell,

    Thanks for your reply and it seems we are almost completely in agreement here.

    When the fat lady sings Jehovah reserves the right to be merciful to repentant ones such as Ninevah that Johah preached too.

    Have a great day.

    Joe
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Yes, indeed ... sadly, a lot of people (across the denominations - particularly the Hellers) follow Jonah's thinking and just want people condemned regardless.
     

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