What is the New Covenant and what is it for ?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Utuna, May 27, 2014.

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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Although I obviously have some "inkling" with regard to what the New Covenant is and what it was made for, I'm asking this question, in earnest... for real ! I've been asking myself the same question for a long time now... "They say that all Christians are under the New Covenant but do they, at least, know what the New Covenant is ? Do I know what it is ? What it means ?"

    I'm asking this question in connection with what Perimeno wrote in the following article :

    http://perimeno.ca/Who_included_in_NC.htm

    Any takers ? ;)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    My first move... ;)

    "And Moses went up to the [true] God, and Jehovah began to call to him out of the mountain, saying: “This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and to tell the sons of Israel, ‘YOU yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, that I might carry YOU on wings of eagles and bring YOU to myself. And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.â€￾" - Ex. 19:3-6
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi Utuna,

    That is a appropriate question.

    The new covenant replaced the old covenant. The old covenant by means of Moses could bring no one to perfection and life. Right?

    The new covenant is brought in by means of Jesus - he died for our sins that could not be atoned for by means of the covenant with Moses.

    That covenant with Moses really did condemn all to death because no one could keep it perfectly.

    This new covenant that leads to eternal life for all who are a part of it is one that does not condemn to death.

    This new covenant does not take into account that all are condemned to death because of the sin of adam. Jesus paid for that sin and because of this we all may have life if we exercise faith in what Jehovah did thru Jesus.

    Does this make sense to you brother?

    Truly we have hope of eternal life because of the new covenant by means of Jesus loving sacrifice.

    Your Brother

    Joe
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    A well written article by "Peremino"!

    There is the 'shadow' of the thing, and the reality, from old covenant to new.

    Interestingly, the shadow is physical, and the reality is spiritual.

    Regarding the priesthood / brotherhood / anointed, perhaps there are kings, and there are priests? Two groups; Maybe Christians are priests, and the 'chosen' become kings? The 144,000 are the kings, the GC are the priests who help with the work of ministering to mankind?



    Round #2:

    Was Moses receiving the second set of written tablets in Ex 34-35 symbolic of the second covenant?

    The 'reality' of the shadow, where Moses is seen with a glowing face, and then a veil.
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi SingleCell,

    Don't think so. The reality that saves comes thru Jesus and not Moses.

    John 1:
    17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.


    Jehovah used Moses for the law that condemned all to death because no one could keep it perfectly. The undeserved Kindess and truth came thru Jesus apart from the Law. And yet Jesus fulfilled the law as a perfect man so that we do not have too.

    Jesus brought in the new covenant not Moses.

    Have a peaceful day.

    Joe
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Oh I definitely agree!

    I'm just thinking of a possible metaphorical implication, a 'type' and 'anti-type' as the Watchtower states it.

    Not that the Mosaic law is the second covenant, just an early reference in the Bible that two covenants were coming. Or perhaps said another way, two instances of God making a covenant.

    The first covenant was a shadow of the second covenant, Col 2:17 basically:

    "These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2014
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi SingleCell,

    Yes your comment makes sense because the covenant with Israel by Moses is the covenant and prophesies leading to Jesus.

    And as Paul said it was a tutor leading to Jesus.

    And then Jesus brought in something better to make it possible for all to benefit.

    So the 1st covenant was necessary to bring about the New Covenant that is mentioned.

    Have a nice day.

    Joe
     
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    Barry

    Barry New Member

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    Hi,

    I've been thinking about this already for some time.

    Revelation 7:4: "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:"
    The next verses go on with mentioning 12,000 out of each tribe.

    So all the tribes make up the Israel of God (Gal 6:16) and out of these 144,000 are chosen as anointed.

    Based on that it would seem that the new covenant includes all faithful christians and out of these only 144,000 are anointed but all together are part of the new covenant.

    If you compare with the old Israel only 1 tribe was a tribe of priests but all the tribes together were Israel.
    Why would the Israel of God only contain priests?

    just my two cents.

    Barry
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi Barry,

    Enjoyed your comment - that is pretty much how I understand the new covenant.

    Since the anointed are not kings and priests while still in the flesh they are to be humble and are waiting for the time when Jesus returns and does the first resurrection and gathers those that are left around and are changed into the new creation that is incorruptable and immortal.

    Then and only then are they truly qualified to lead as kings and priests under the headship of their husband Jesus who has already recieved from His Father Jehovah all authority and power.

    Just a few thoughts more.

    Have a nice day.

    Joe
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    The 144 000 aren't chosen but sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel... :)

    As seen on another thread, to be anointed already means to be chosen, to be set apart and as explained elsewhere, many people whom we may rightfully call Christians won't be among Christ's brothers. There is another proof which I had written as a reply to SingleCell but I need to copy it on the thread I dedicated to that topic. I have other proofs but am lacking time for this lately. Sorry !

    Edit 09/21/2014 : I did it since then.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    love you bro ! I hope that you're doing well ! ;)

    It's always a pleasure to see you around !
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    PRIEST, HEBREW

    2. Essential Idea of the Hebrew Priesthood. — This may be called mediation; hence the fact that in the epistle to the Hebrews mediator and priest are considered as synonymous. Yet by this the specific object of the priesthood, in contradistinction to the two other theocratical offices of prophet and king, is by no means sufficiently expressed. The prophet is also a mediator between God and man, since he speaks to the latter in the name of the former; while the king is the mediator of the judicial and executive power of God among his people, acting in the name of Jehovah. The priest also was clothed with representative power (Deut 18:5); but this power was mainly directed to represent the people as a holy people in the presence of Jehovah, and to prepare a way by which they themselves might approach God.

    Israel was the full-grown family of God, and the domestic priesthood was to become a nation of priests, a royal priesthood (Ex 19:3-6; Deut 7:6; Num 16:3). But that Israel was chosen to be the royal priesthood with respect to other nations, like many other things, was only expressed in idea, and not actually realized in fact. Israel was incapacitated by its natural sinfulness, and by its incessant transgressions of the very law through the fulfillment of which it was to be sanctified, to penetrate into the immediate presence of God (Ex 19:21). Hence the necessity of the nation having individual representatives to mediate between them and Jehovah. As a separate element the priesthood represented the nation as yet unfit to approach God. The people offered their gifts to God by means of a separated class from among themselves, and in connection with the propitiatory sacrifices this was calculated to keep alive the consciousness of their estrangement from God. The very place assigned to the priests in the camp was expressive of this idea, that they keep "the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel" (Num 3:38).
    (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic
    Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006. All rights reserved.)


    PRIEST, HEBREW

    It is noticeable also that at this transition-stage, when the old order was passing away, and the new was not yet established, there is the proclamation of the truth, wider and higher than both, that the whole people was to be "a kingdom of priests" (Ex 19:6). The idea of the life of the nation was that it was to be as a priest and a prophet to the rest of mankind. They were called to a universal priesthood (comp. Keil, ad loc.). As a people, however, they needed a long discipline before they could make the idea a reality. They drew back from their high vocation (Ex 20:18-21). As for other reasons, so also for this, that the central truth required a rigid, unbending form for its outward expression, a distinctive priesthood was to be to the nation what the nation was to mankind. The position given to the ordinances of the priesthood indicated with sufficient clearness that it was subordinate, not primary, a means and not an end. Not in the first proclamation of the great laws of duty in the Decalogue (Ex 20:1-17), nor in the application of those laws to the chief contingencies of the people's life in the wilderness, does it find a place. It appears together with the ark and the tabernacle, as taking its position in the education by which the people were to be led towards the mark of their high calling.

    (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database.
    Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006. All rights reserved.)

     
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    Jan

    Jan Active Member

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    Hi Utuna. I totally agree with perimeno about the new covenant as does belongingtojah.
    That the new covenant is for all christians. Both for the anointed and non anointed. So infact all can and should take part of the bread and wine. Those symbols are not only for the anointed who are destined for life in heaven.
     
  14. Hi Jan:

    I think that you are correct in the aspect that all should partake of the emblems at the celebration of the Passover, but only those that are in the New Covenant should partake of those particular emblems. The problem with the celebration amongst Jehovah's Witnesses is that their are only one set of emblems, one loaf and one cup. Whether or not more than one circulate through the congregation at one time, they are still the "same" cup and loaf.

    But the Passover as it has been celebrated for years, yes Centuries and Millenia included more than one loaf and one cup, in fact there were four. Three loaves were presented at the beginning of the meal, however one was cut into two, with one loaf "hidden" making a total of four loaves. Each loaf had a corresponding cup. Loaves and cups were eaten before the meal, during the meal, and after the meal. Each of these loaves represented a different covenant between God and Man. The Jews represented them as having a slightly different purpose for the partakers because they did not understand completely the covenants between God and man. Surely they did not understand the New Covenant, the Apostles did not even understand until after Jesus death and their receiving Holy Spirit.

    Without going into the meaning of all the cups and loaves and what covenants are meant by them, understand that everyone who attends the Passover that at least has faith can partake of at least one of the loaves and cups that pertains to that group. The loaf that pertains to the New Covenant was only made between Jesus and his "faithful" disciples, those that had remained with him during his ministry. Remember these were members of his Bride, his wife and the Covenant with them was the eauivalent to a marriage proposal, and when the disciples ate of that loaf and drank that cup, they were accepting Jesus proposal of marriage and all the responsibilities that they entailed.

    But, not withstanding the loaf and cup of the New Covenant, there are three more that should be eaten and drank by all others in attendance who at least have the starts of faith, other who have been sealed in their faith, and those who have been and are "born again" but are not a part of the Bride of Christ.

    Yes, all or at least most who attend a memorial should partake of at least one loaf and cup with the exception of those who attend who do not have any faith. Some should partake of two, but only the Bride of Christ should eat the loaf and drink the cup of the "New Covenant".

    frank
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I guessed as much that you'd agree with him, since you already had expressed your opinion in that regard. That's fine by me. I had started this thread in order to add additional thoughts but I have had personal chores to do since then, which have impeded me from doing many things.

    The Lord's Supper is a reenactment of the Jewish betrothal. During the ceremony, which had lots of symbolic features, only the bride would share the cups of wine and make a solemn vow to wait for his beloved bridegroom during his absence. Many prophecies and utterances recorded in the Bible fit to a tee old Jewish customs and feasts. You can't understand the ins and the outs of many things in the Bible if you ignore those keys. The GC members aren't the bride, as the bride only goes to heaven to meet up with Jesus, this in keeping with other logical conclusions expressed elsewhere on this forum.

    All in all, Perimeno's thesis makes much less sense than the one I stick to, if those things were ever a matter of logical reasoning...

    There are plenty of threads here talking about the Jewish betrothal. Here are a couple of them (here and there) that should give you a glimpse of what I'm talking about. There are also tons of websites out there on Internet about that subject.

    Personally, I don't mind if people who aren't anointed want to partake of the emblems during the Memorial, either in the KH or at home. That's not my business. But what I do think is that they don't know what they are doing.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hi frank,

    The celebration of the Passover was required by the Old Covenant and many of its symbolic aspects were fulfilled in Jesus. There's no need to keep celebrating them in detail as many of them have lost their symbolic value. If Jesus didn't celebrate the Passover in full that night with his disciples, there is a reason...

    Might not it mean that you reject those fulfillments in Jesus if you keep giving those objects a value and symbols that they don't have anymore ?

    Besides, don't forget that there was no wine served during the first celebrations of the Passover.
     
  17. Hi Utuna:

    You've obviously never actually looked closely at the accounts of the Passover that Jesus celebrated with his disciples or you would not have that attitude at all. He clearly ate loaves and drank cups at various points in the evening, some before the meal, some during the meal and some after the meal, but you can ignore that fact if you want to. But who am I to say. Yeah Watchtower!!!

    frank
     
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    Jan

    Jan Active Member

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    Thanks utuna for interesting information about the Jewish wedding arrangement. It makes it easier to understand Jesus' parabels.

    And of course if someone does not feel for and is unable to take the symbols worthily, then better not to partake.*According to apostle Paul.

    Maybe it is impossible for the members of the great crowd to fully appreciate the symbols and therefore best for then to abastain from them.

    I remember the time before I got anointed that the bible was like a looked book. But after the anointing it became 100 times easier to understand.

    What about you Utuna, have you taken from the symbols at the kingdom hall?
     

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