Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by BreakTheWalls, Jan 24, 2017.
I don't understand what it means, it is very vague.
I haven't forgot about you brother, I'll respond shortly.
Jehovah's word is so beautiful and amazing. The fact that he has kept this book in tact for all these years in almost perfect condition for us today so that we can be a part of sharing it's message in truth is simply beautiful.
So this brings me to 2Th chapter 2. Reading through this chapter it can be very difficult to determine what the thing is that acts as a restraint, and as well who the MOL is. So in comes the beauty of Jehovah's word, it as always explains itself.
Let's start with verses 1 and 2 where we are admonished not to give credence to the idea that Jehovah's day had arrived, such as in inspired expressions, letters, verbal messages.
"However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here." (2Th 2:1,2)
Sound familiar? Is this not just what the WTS has been teaching for coming on to 100 years now? Let's read what the bible writer told us to watch out for when this time actually would be upon us.
"Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction." (2Th 2:3)
So the day of Jehovah would not begin until first the apostasy comes and then the MOL is revealed. Anyone here familiar with any apostasy in the WTS's recent past? I'm sure you are. Now what of this MOL?
"He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called â€œgodâ€ or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god." (2Th 2:4)
Now there is an ongoing theory that this MOL could have occured all those years ago back when false teaching would have begun to creep in the early Christian church. We will now show how that theory is impossible and as well show in this chapter where it actually discusses that very issue of false teachings creeping into the early church.
Number one, we should keep in mind that the 4th verse here says he sits in the temple of "The God". Yes, this MOL does come from within Jehovah's true temple, just as Judas was a close associate of Jesus and had betrayed him.
Now let's look at the key to understand this entire sequence, and that is the "restraint"!
"And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time." (2Th 2:6)
This scripture says, "now you know the thing that acts as a restraint." Sure previously in this chapter this thing that acts as a restraint is touched on, but as of yet does not give us a clearer picture until we read on of what this restraint is, so let's read verse 7.
"True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way." (2Th 2:7)
So we see that at the time this verse was penned the thing that acts as a restraint already existed 2000 years ago. As well notice that this time the verse calls the restraint a "he". Now obviously the "mystery" is that which the restraint brings in, those false teachings infiltrating the early Christian churches. Who is that one who acts as a restraint and brings in those false teachings into the early churches? None other the Satan himself! We will see why this is so in a bit.
Now, how do we know the MOL cannot have been revealed in any other time but the future? Because sense Satan is that restraint, his being out of the way is his ouster from Heaven! It's not until Satan is casted out of heaven is the MOL revealed. We will look further into this in a bit as well, but let's read on in 2Th.
"Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence." (2Th 2:8)
Now look at the next verse;
"But the lawless oneâ€™s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents." (2Th 2:9)
The operation of Satan is the restraint that backs the lawless one and brings in the apostasy. Now we see the culmination of the 8 verses before it. We have explained here what the restraint is that is behind the lawlessness, and of course it is Satan. That mystery of the lawlessness that had begun to enter the early church those 2000 years ago was the lying signs and portents such as those saying, "The day of Jehovah is here." when in fact Satan was still acting as a restraint and the MOL had not yet been revealed. Remember verse 7? The restraint was acting in place then in the early church, so the bible writer knew he was talking about a future MOL because he says "True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work." so he knew there was a future lawlessness that would culminate into the restraint being removed and then MOL being revealed only after Satan's ouster in the future.
"and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved." (2Th 2:10)
Now look at the next verse;
"So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2Th 2:11)
Here we have it, we now understand what the operation of error is. "The day of Jehovah is here". That's what the operation of error is, and is this not what the society has been saying now for 100 years? The problem with that is just as in the early church the one acting as a restraint, "Satan" has not yet been hurled from heaven, and as well the MOL has not been revealed. So therefore the day of Jehovah and the beginning of the end has not begun!
It had been a bit of a mystery in chronology exactly when Satan was ousted from heaven. Some tried to tie it to the destruction of the wild beast and fall of the king of the south, but all these ideas were guesses, and now we have it, Rev chapter 12 is chronologically sound from it's description of the very first prophecy in the bible to events just before the flood, on to Jesus faithful course on earth and on down to the end when Jehovah's true temple is trampled on by the nations. The very first occurrence before the MOL is revealed and the end begins is war between Michael and his angles and Satan and his angels when the later are hurled to the earth! Then the MOL is revealed within the temple of "The God" at the first trumpet and that future faithful Rosh Hashana. Jewish-Holidays-Fullfilled
A little more information about the MOL and the one restraining;
2 Th 2:7 "True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way."
As mentioned in my first post of this thread, it seems quite likely the restrainer in 2Th is Satan himself, but what is interesting is that there are two events in scripture that can be taken as Satan being put out of the way. One in which he is cast out of heaven, and the second when he is abyssed.
I had recently made a study of Rev 12 that outlines Satan had been cast out of heaven the moment Jesus returned to heaven at his ascension, and you can read that HERE. So therefore we know that his casting out of heaven can not be the moment he is out of the way in order for the MOL to be revealed, for his ousting was now 2000 years ago, and the day of Jehovah has not come as of yet.
Therefore what we are actually looking at here is that second event when Satan is abyssed. Yes, that is correct, the MOL will not be revealed until after Satan is abyssed. Interesting huh? I will explain...
I'm going to briefly touch base on events and the timeline of the end, but if you have a question as to why an event is in the order it is, please feel free to ask me to clarify.
With that said, I am going to start off with a graph that includes two important events discussed in 2Th 2.
Now these two events marked in boxes are specifically mentioned in 2Th 2 in these scriptures below;
2Th 2:1 "However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him."
2Th 2:3 "because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first."
2Th 2:2 "to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here."
You will notice in the graph above that the day of Jehovah, and being gathered together of Christs remaining brothers to him both occur on the same day.
Now to touch base on the day of Jehovah, scripture is quite clear, it is the very day Jehovah comes to destroy the evil doers, and to save those of his people. So therefore this moment is actually deep in the time of the end, rather then being at the beginning of the end.
Then that begs the question, when are we to expect the MOL? When does this man set himself up in Gods temple? Those of us outside looking in have always assumed that man is sitting there now, and we were waiting for him to be revealed, but is this the case, does the chronology tell us this? The answer to that appears to be no...
What this all comes down to is when Satan is abyssed, and what it appears is, Satan is abyssed just before Christ Jesus is crowned. Meaning, Satan is thrown out of heaven the moment Jesus begins ruling in the heavens, and then abyssed the moment Jesus begins ruling on earth.
Rev 20:1,2 "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years."
What's interesting about this is Rev 20 tells us that Satan is abyssed before Christ brothers are resurrected;
Rev 20:4 "Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."
Christs brothers are resurrected the moment he is crowned, and this is 40 days before they ascend into the heavens.
So what this means is a of couple things, first is that Satan is abyssed at least 75 days before the first day of the new world, and including missing Armageddon itself.
Second, this means the MOL that sets himself up as a god in the temple of God, is not the current temple, but the one that is rebuilt in the time of the end, 69 weeks before our Lord is crowned.
In fact what we are probably looking at is the disgusting thing that stands in a holy place. It appears that this man may be the connection between the Judas character, the son of destruction, and the KOTN who puts in place the disgusting thing. After all, since he is the lawless one, the man of sin, he would be supporting the 8th king, who sets him up in that place. It's that final moment as seen in Dan 3 when our brothers are given a choice, to worship that one who is set up, or to be killed...
This chronology involves the entire Bible, and I know it's extremely complex. As well if I had placed every scriptural reference within it, this post would have gone one for ever. So if you would like me to expound more on a specific subject within, by all means reply and I will explain in more detail.
Thanks for clearing that up...
Yes, I revised that understanding since I wrote that first post, I copied from an older thread, and should have read through it again more carefully to update.
I wrote the thread "Rev 12 Verse by Verse" in between those two statements, and posts, and now believe that Satan was cast out 2000 years ago when Jesus returned to heaven.
I apologies for not catching that.
The first post above was from Aug 22, 2013, in post #1 of the thread here: "(2Th 2) The Restraint & MOL"
And the second post above was from Jan 16, 2017 in the same thread but 4 years later: "2nd Page (2Th) The Restraint & MOL"
I wrote the thread with my updated understanding of when Satan was cast out on Oct 26, 2016 here: "Rev 12 / Verse By Verse"
Again, I usually try not to make stupid mistakes like that, but I obviously didn't read through as thoroughly as I should have when copying and pasting and didn't catch that discrepancy and change of understanding over the years...
My bad, sorry...
The restraint is removed at the same time as the constant feature is removed. So there should be some connection, I think.
Can I ask why you believe the restraint is removed the same time as the constant feature?
The scripture says that the constant feature is removed and the holy place is defiled. So this in it self seems to have to do with the thing acting as a restraint.
Because when the constant feature is removed and the holy place is defiled it allows the apostacy to take over.
Joshua, here is the scriptures that show that the constant feature is removed at the same process as the fortress (WT) and the sanctuary are profaned and also the disgusting thing placed on the holy place.
Daniel 11:30 “He will go back and hurl denunciations* against the holy covenant+ and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant.31 And arms* will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary,+ the fortress, and remove the constant feature.*+“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.
But what is your status in connection with the Jehovah's witnesses?
I believe the Watchtower is the constant feature.
I will start with the 1290 days sense you started there. The constant feature and the disgusting thing being placed do not occur on the same day, they are 1290 days apart. So therefore the constant feature is removed, and then 1290 days after that the disgusting thing is placed in the holy place.
Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity."
Daniel 12:11 (CEV) | In Context|Whole Chapter
"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the Horrible Thing." that causes destruction."
Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up."
Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
"11 The Â·daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be Â·stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, A blasphemous object that brings destruction [L the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up."
Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."
This is the first part above, the KOTN will hurl denunciations starting not the 1260 days, but the 2300 days.
Dan 8:10 "It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down."
Now what happens first is the KOTN hurls denunciations because of transgression within Jehovah's organization, causing some of the brothers and Christs brothers to fall (metaphorically), but the constant feature doesn't come down yet, because there will be a time when the transgressions will be visible while the constant feature is still in place.
Dan 8:13 "How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue,"
Therefore the desolation at this point continues because of transgression, before the constant feature is removed.
After which the constant feature is removed.
Dan 8:12 "And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success."
Dan 8:13 "to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?”
Then the holy one answers, saying there will be 2300 evenings and mornings then the holy place will be brought into its right condition. Since the temple sanctuary was a shadow of heavenly things, the holy place was representative of Jehovah's organization on earth, and those 2300 days end on the same day as the 1335 days in Dan 12.
Dan 12:12 "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!"
Now since the days in Dan 12 are congruent, then those 1335 days end 45 days after the 1290. So if you do the math, the hurling of denunciations come 965 days before the constant feature is removed. Basically we will see transgressions by the Watchtower of two and a half years before they are forced to close their doors.
When the restraint is out of the way is one of the most complex subjects I have ever come across in scripture, and has taken me years to track down. The gist of it is, I have come to understand that the one acting as a restraint is Satan, and being out of the way is the moment he is abyssed.
Anyway, enough information for one post.
To me those bible translations seem to have written in their own erroneous preconceived doctrines about the timing.
Check for your self a hebrew interlinear and you should be able to see that it is otherwise.
Here is an online hebrew interlinear:
I'm not sure what you mean, the interlinear agrees with me completely.
"And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
The constant feature is removed and the abomination set up 1290 days later, that is the reason it mentions the 1290 days. The literal translation shows the 1290 days as the time between the two events.
Hi Joshua, the ( ) show how I understand the scripture. And I take in account Daniel 11:30-32 to determine when and what will take place.
The following scripture should be understood in connection with that scripture.
("And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up), [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days (to an unspecified event)."
Also the 1335th day contains something untold in the bible.
Daniel12:11 says “And from the time that the constant feature*+ has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place,+ there will be 1,290 days.
If it said 11 “And from the time that the constant feature*+ has been removed TILL the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place,+ there will be 1,290 days.... It could mean the thing you are saying, but still it would not be in accord with Daniel 11:30-32.
Dan 11:31 is just telling us the KOTN will accomplish both events, not that they occur at the same moment. The disgusting thing isn't placed till verse 45;
Dan 11:45 "And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration;"
We know what occurs at the 1335th day, it says happy is the one, and that is very clear what that is throughout scripture.
Zech 3:10 "In that day,’ declares Jehovah of armies, ‘Each of you will invite your neighbor to come under your vine and under your fig tree.’”
Your just reading it wrong, the reason for the 1290 days is because the sentence is saying from the time of the constant feature being removed to the disgusting thing being set up.
Ok I get it you have your own perception how to understand a certain text and I have my logic. Time will soon tell who understands.
May I ask, what are the 1290 days for?
The bible does not say. We will see what happens that day. Maybe the sudden destruction of Babylon the Great, that is New York or may be the empowerment of UN just prior to the destruction of Babylon the Great?
Well you say I have my own perception, and you your logic, well I quoted at least 5 translations that agree with my perception, and their logic says the 1290 days are the days between the two events.
Separate names with a comma.