what when how who is the slave that is to do the feeding?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by john, Apr 4, 2013.

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    john

    john Member

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    http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/new-light-watchtower-magazine-leaked-from-organization-weeks-ahead-of-general-release


    In light of this so-called new light…what do we know about Matt 24:45-47?

    Matthew said Jesus said:

    [SUP]45[/SUP] “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? [SUP]46[/SUP] Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. [SUP]47[/SUP] Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

    Luke said Jesus said:

    [SUP]42[/SUP] And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? [SUP]43[/SUP] Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so![SUP] 44[/SUP] I tell YOU truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

    Verse 45 from Matt speaks as if the appointment was made at that time…Luke 42 speaks as if the appointment is still to be made.

    Putting those verses on hold for the moment, verses 47/44 makes it clear that Jesus will appoint over all his belongings the slave that is found giving his (Jesus’) “domestics/body of attendants†food at the time that he (Jesus) arrives.

    So if Jesus’ arrival mentioned here is when he comes after the GT is cut short, then that means that in order to be found giving the food at that arrival, that this slave would had to have been doing so prior to, which for certain would mean that the slave would had to be doing so during the GT.

    The questions are:

    How far prior to the GT was/is the appointment to feed the “domestics/body of attendants†made?

    In what manner did/will Jesus make that appointment?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Your questions are great !

    Here is what has always been one of my most puzzling questions : If the FDS must be appointed as such when Jesus comes (for good, so to speak) and obviously if he must understand what he must do and why he does it (Luke12:42-48), how can he ignore that said work (Rv11:3) is decisive and above all ignore that the preaching work of which he's the spearhead and the world events are clearly fulfilling the prophecies ? That can't be...! If they must receive the full measure of Holy Spirit before Jesus comes (or even just a fuller mesure than what has already been given till now), they can't ignore that the end is nigh... It'll be a question of months according to the prophecies, not of nearly a century as the WT claims...

    ...unless we presume that the FDS will carry out his assignment given by Jesus without really knowing the real significance of it, which I doubt indeed !
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    much debates and a whole relegion has been built over this qustion. but jesus never left us with a puzzle, the qustion answers itself with happy is the slave that is feeding his other domestic servants when the master arives home because he will be put in charge of the masters belongings..
    the faithfull and discreet slave shows himself by takeing care of other slaves..
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    Doxceys explanation of all these events are further cemented by this pile of blind lies..thats if the link is correct in what it says.

    "Look! I Am With You All the Days (September 9-15) – Christ’s parable of the “wheat and the weedsâ€￾ is applied directly to the long period between 33 CE and Armageddon. The separating work is said to have commenced in 1914, when Christ undertook a period of “inspection and cleansingâ€￾ of the organization that lasted until 1919, when the Bible Students were approved as being “true Christian wheat.â€￾

    Jesus said that when he arrives that is when the reward is given to the faithful anointed to be the FDS,BUT that false weeds,those who WERE wheat and now weeds,were thrown "outside". Outside the bride class because of unfaithfulness.

    This happens at His arrival,not nearly 100 years before he arrives.

    The illustration of the 10 virgins makes the same point. They all told to awaken just before the bridegroom arrives. When the celebrations starts,the 5 unwise are left out because they didnt prove faithful by shining light from Jah. Their "light" was from another source...it was not "light" at all.

    So although virgins,those invited to be part of bride,they were "foolish" and so missed out.

    The timing is important. Its when Jesus arrives that the 5 foolish miss out. This is just as Jesus said in the illustration of the wheat and weeds. They are harvested together..and the harvest is the conclusion of the system,not many years before.

    This means that when Jesus does arrive,there would be anointed who would be like the 5 foolish virgins...they would miss out though invited anointed. So the seperation that the WTS is saying happened in 1914 is a lie and shows they dont understand these basic things.

    Jesus did not arrive in 1914. They presume that the Kingdom being born is also the time he arrives. These events happen closely,but not in 1914. The kingdom is yet to be born as proven by the "pangs of distress" are in fact birth pangs/labour pains. I have looked up this expression in the Greek and its the same word in Rev 12:2 BIRTH PANGS. These happen BEFORE a birth NOT after.

    What we are seeing is the false light the 5 unwise virgins are putting out. This "new light" is exactly why they are not accepted into the marriage feast and miss out.
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    Just to add to the last post,the "FDS" say that when Jesus inspected the Bible students and they went through a "cleansing period" and after that were ready for Jahs work...this is not scriptural. In the illustrations mentioned and esp the 10 virgins,when Jesus arrived many anointed would miss out on going into the celebration along with the bridegroom.

    The false "FDS" say that most anointed go to heaven and very few miss out. But this is not what the 10 virgins illustration shows. Jesus said "many are invited,but few are chosen". "few" in this case means comparatively few according to the Greek.

    What we are witnessing in these last days before Jesus arrives is a great division amongst the anointed in JWs. This is what Jesus predicted. But the anointed who have become apostate are trying to keep their brothers in sleep and blind loyalty to the Org. MANY anointed are starting to wake up to this..and will snow-ball into a bigger event.

    Do we need more proof that apostate anointed are running things in the Org than the re-hashing of 1914 ? If Jesus arrives and finds them doing so,this means teaching the truth and admitting mis-understandings like 1914 to be loyal to their Bridegroom.

    As Jesus Revelation to John higlights,the Harlot which are apostate anointed are drunk. Spiritualy drunk. This is why 1914 continues to be taught. If a simple thing like "pangs of distress" really are "labour pains,birth pangs" as the greek shows and these happen before a birth...then the Kingdom HAS NOT be born. Yet,anointed in the GB still teach this lie to JWs.

    We have to ask why? Because of the predicted drama of the division of the anointed into wheat and weeds and how the apostate anointed Harlot in Revelation is dominating the Organisation.

    In the illustration of the 10 virgins,the 5 foolish went of to buy oil because they had none...no light within themselves,though "virgins". The 5 wise went inot the celebration because they had Light.

    So what we are seeing before Jesus arrives is who amomgst the anointed virgins is going to give out light..true light of truth. Lies are not truth or light...and this explains why the GB false FDS still teach nonsence like 1914. They are spiritualy drunk with power from their position and thus are blind,though once virgins like the wise virgins.

    This is why we can identify the Harlot as the anointed who are apostate. Of all those ever in a covenant relationship with Jah and then committed spiritual fornication..who would have committed this greatest crime? What greater privilidge could there be than being invited to be part of the 144,000 ? None. So those who enter into this covenant recieved HS so they would know they were invited. They accepted the terms of having to be spiritualy chaste. YET,as Jesus highlights in the illustration of the wheat and weeds,there would be some wheat who would become weeds..they would become apostate.
     
  6. Hi John:

    Matthew has  (it did not accept my hebrew fonts) ‘appointed’ in a past tense, Luke has  ‘will appoint’ in a future tense. These accounts are both set between the first and second comings in either presence, the presence of the Christ in the first Century to the start of the second Century and the presence in the 19th to the start of the 21st Centuries. The two slaves of Matthew have been appointed to feed domestics (at the first comings), and then become evil. Whereas two slaves of Luke will be appointed to keep “feeding curing staff “(at the second comings). So the slaves of Luke are two further slaves who take over from the slaves of Matthew in each presence. Both scriptures ask a question implying a choice between two slaves. The solution is that there are 4 Faithful & Discreet Slaves/Stewards, 2 in each presence, which we will call FDS1,2,3,4 for Faithful and Discrete Slaves 1,2,3,4 in order of appointment.

    FDS 1 was appointed by Jesus himself, but they later became apostate as a group which necessitated the appointment of FDS 2 later in the first Century when FDS1 evolved into the Catholic Church.

    Here is the account of the appointment of the first true Christian church by Jesus on 33Nisan17 probably at the 9th hour...

    19 Therefore, when it was late on that day, the first of the weeks [the first day in the count of the festival of weeks, 33Nisan17], and, although the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: May you have peace.
    20 And after he said this he showed them both his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.
    21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again: May you have peace [two fold peace – Jerusalem. By mentioning this phrase “May you have Peace†twice, Jesus illustrates the true meaning of Jerusalem, City of two fold peace.]. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending you.

    22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: Receive holy spirit [Be receptive to the holy spirit now that you are appointed, as FDS1, over all of Jesus' belongings, all of the saints, etc. Jesus is saying you are now the true church, you will be guided by Holy Spirit, make sure you listen and receive its transmissions through dreams, conversations with others, the bible etc].

    23 If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained [This is the appointment of FDS1 as the true church. They are now the guardians of the water baptism of the ICC through the 1EC (these covenants are discussed in more detail in another paper). The law of their church determines whether you have a valid water baptism or not, and so whether your sins in the past stand forgiven or not. This law is respected by the heavens. The appointment is late on the day of 33Nisan17, 9th hour perhaps?].
    24 But Thomas, one of the 12, who was called The Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
    25 Consequently the other disciples would say to him: We have seen the Lord! But he said to them: Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe (John 20).

    FDS 2 was appointed by Jesus in their stead after the FDS became the Evil Slave of Matthew 34 and was no longer worthy of their appointment which created a dilemma for the True new covenant saints clinging to the apostate church of FDS1. Their dilemma was, do they continue with the Evil Slave of FDS1 or do they follow the voice of their Lord and King and “follow the lamb no matter where he goesâ€, and he went into FDS2 and the “Curing Staff†therein. This would answer the question for them as to “who really is the Faithful and Discrete Slaveâ€?

    The same thing would be repeated in modern times, the Bible Students who eventually became Jehovah’s Witnesses were appointed by Jesus as FDS3 through Charles Russell in the latter part of the 19 Century and remained the FDS until the latter part of the 20th Century when they too became apostate and qualified to be called the Evil Slave by Jesus. Jesus therefore appointed FDS 4 to be the “Curing Staff†of this presence mentioned in Luke. The same dilemma presents itself to the remnant of first new covenant saints in the Watchtower. Should I stay with the organization that has the history and with which I have all my history, or do I “follow the lamb no matter where he goes†into the upstart FDS4 which has little or no history? The way they choose to answer is the answer to the question, “who really is the Faithful and Discrete Slave?

    For a much more detailed explanation, private message me and I will send you that explanation in a 16 page paper written about this very subject. I will not post the full explanation on the board, as that would take way too long and way too much effort to re-format for this site. If you are a guest of the board and cannot private message me, contact me at francissonofcharles@gmail.com and I will email the full explanation to you.

    frank
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    About the link you mentioned...We might wonder why they continue to believe and re-hash 1914 and ascribe certain events as having happened in and around 1914. There is so much misunderstanding of bible teachings that happens because of this date. The Kingdom been established in that year and Jesus arrival and his inspection leading to appointment of the FDS to begin with.

    1914 is like a “drunk jokeâ€. While a person is intoxicated,there are many things that seem seriously funny. A joke told while drunk hardly seems funny at all when sobriety is gained. “How was that even considered funny†says the now sober person . This is exactly what is going on with the GB Harlot. Revelation says that these apostate anointed who are the Harlot are DRUNK.

    As already mentioned,when a person is drunk things are not what they seem. The harlot keeps rehashing 1914 and all its misapplied applications because she is drunk. If those anointed were to gain sobriety,they would see how what she has been teaching is the result of her intoxication.

    Recent studies into alcohol addiction reveals that constant intoxication,being drunk...effects the mind. It changes its chemical function so that the brain no longer functions how its supposed to. Thus a persons logic...as a result of the damage caused by constant drunkeness stops a person from seeing how flawed their reasoning has become.

    Jesus faithful “wise virgins†are not drunk and see how pathetic their former brothers have become because of her/their drunken state...and how what she is teaching is a result of spiritual brain damage caused by constant spiritual drunkeness.

    They are disconnected from spiritual realities.

    Because the GB are thoroughly drunk and brain damaged,they think everyone will see their reasoning as sound...that its a marvellous piece of “new light†that everyone will appreciate coming from their drunken lips because they once were clean spiritual Virgins! But this flawed reasoning is from being drunk. This is what happens in drunken intoxication,you cant see you are effected by what IS CAUSING your intoxication...in this case....their spiritual fornication. Any “new light†reveals is that she is drunk and seriously effected BECAUSE of their drunken stupor.

    Not only is the Harlot got “spiritual brain damage†because of the constant drunkeness,but she is also in a constant state of intoxication. So she is dealing with 2 things. Damage to her capacity of reasoning PLUS the constant state of intoxication...and a spiritual fornicator on top of that.

    If someone has brain damage because of being an alcoholic PLUS being drunk all the time...how can they reason and be logical in any way ? THIS is why the GB Harlot continues to have such blindness and misapplied events because of 1914. Her spiritual fornication and leaving her chasteness towards her husbandly owner has damaged her mind to see reason in a spiritual way. Adding to this is her constant state of drunkeness...so HOW can she possibly explain anything of scriptural significance ?

    What she teaches about 1914 and all other events surrounding this year is a “drunk jokeâ€,something that only makes sense if you are constantly drunk and in a constant state of debauchery...and having been like that for some time.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I have read her work, and I wont get specific into that right now, however I will question your understanding....

    Please share the scriptural connections that show the Harlot of Rev 17 is the GB. Please show scripturally that this is the case, and just because you have the women who flees into the wilderness as the bride of Christ does not make the description of the Harlot the GB, that would be implying. Make an accurate connection from the Harlot to the GB in the bible. Besides for that matter you would also have to prove scripturally that the women who flees into the wilderness wasn't the core beliefs of the WTS such as the falsity of the Trinity, the understanding of the nature of the soul and the longevity of the earth. Can you do that? Hopefully you could do that with the 1914 doctrine and it's supposed connection to the heaven high tree of Dan 4, so make the solid connection from the Harlot to the GB without a single objection being able to be raised by me... Scripture can have no paradoxes or it is an interpretation.

    You speak of those who are drunk and have their minds clouded, however I would say to you that those who have interpretations are clouded. Scripture explains itself and needs no interpretation.., and in time we will share with the world the truth of the truth. This is the meaning of Jesus's words, of the faithful and discreet slave after the women flees into the wilderness. It's extremely simple when you understand the chronology and when the statement is made compared to what has occurred already up until that moment...

    "And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many." (Dan 11:33)

    These are the ones that statement is for, after the constant feature is removed...
     
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    Utuna

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    Yeah, doxcey's theories aren't scriptural either. Her theories are the epitome of sophism, a biblical soup made with unlikely associations of ideas, awkward linguistic connections and erroneous biblical reasoning. Without wanting to be mean, her theories are just like 1914 to me. There are interesting things in her theories but cautiousness should be demonstrated when quoting them, and especially so regarding her conclusions about the Harlot. As usual among the anointed ones, she's true when it comes to doctrinal understanding but prophetic interpretation is a bust... or nearly so.

    And you know how much I dislike when people, anointed or not, tell people what to do and tell them to take potentially dramatic decisions for them and their families like leaving the JWs and this based on personal and dubious interpretations like hers. If her faith in her theories incites her to sacrifice herself, so to speak, then why not ? but people shouldn't be incited to sacrifice themselves and their family life for her ideas. What a waste of lives ! Why don't people sacrifice their lives for things that really matter instead of doing so for personal interpretations or in reaction to the sins and lies of the WT? Once again, what a waste !

    Personally, the sins of the WT aren't worth my life and my family ! However, the Truth is...
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    Please give me one example.
     
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    "Revelation is talking about the last Harlot (who also has Babylon the Great AS HER MOTHER COVENANT), who is the GB over an organization of spiritual Gentiles (elders). Jehovah only considers anointed as spiritual "Jews"...having the circumcision of the heart by Holy Spirit (Rom.2:29; Gal3:29)."

    "The unfaithful anointed who have taken worldly power to dominate their anointed brothers (
    Mark10:42,43; Matt.23:8) decide to persecute their brothers with that power (Matt.24:49; Isa.66:5; John16:2; Rev.13:15), teach lies, and "kill" the prophets... are the last Harlot (Rev.17:5,6; 18:24; Matt.23:34,35,37) who imitates her sister harlots and mother."

    "In Revelation, Jesus is using symbolism to teach the anointed, that the unfaithful who rule us, are no longer our "brothers in Christ". "

    "They choose to enter a covenant with Satan (
    Rev.9:1,11)! It makes them harlots/daughters of Babylon the Great (1Cor.6:15,16), rather than virgin daughters of Jerusalem above (Gal.4:26; 2Cor.11:2)."

    "The abyss is the spiritual domain of Satan...lies, deception, and death."

    "Authority over it, is represented by holding the key to it. Accepting that key is to enter that Covenant with death"

    "The "Disgusting things of the earth" are all the abominations, blasphemies, and objects of idolatry that the anointed leaders have placed in Jehovah's temple"

    "The "sea"/"abyss" is where the Gentiles/Beast/locust scorpions come from"

    "The Organization of elders are NOT ANOINTED, just as the Wild Beast made of locust/scorpions are NOT ANOINTED."

    "This "locust" swarm, spiritually desolates the "land" with it's stinging lies"

    "These locusts/scorpions/Wild Beast, ruling over his chosen priests, is what Jehovah thinks is the "disgusting thing in a Holy Place"

    "The reason that the Wild Beast has seven heads and ten horns (
    Rev.13:1; 17:3), is because these are Satan's seed...they imitate their father (John8:44)...Satan has given them his power and traits (Rev.13:2)
    (Satan also has 7 heads and ten horns. See
    Rev.12:3.
    The heads of the Beast each stand for a king that has ruled (
    Rev.17:9,10 -- seven is symbolic)."

    "Doxsey"


    Everything here is contrived. There is not one single quote from Daniel. You cannot understand prophecy without that book. No disrespect, for I've met very few who understand chronology of scripture.

    Now I can go on and on about what is above, but simply there is no proof scripturally of interpretation. Let me give you an example. She says that the locusts of Rev 9 are the disgusting thing that stands in a holy place. Number one, the chronology makes it impossible as to events in the end, but just as important there is no proof given of their connection. It's the same thing as saying the heaven high tree of Dan 4 represents 2500 years since the fall of Jerusalem. It's contrived.

    There is no proof in her writings that the GB is the Harlot of Rev 17. Just because some of Jehovah's Witnesses have been persecuted by the GB does not make them scripturally the Harlot without exact scriptural connection. If you make one mistake in prophecy everything after it will be wrong. Prophecy can have no paradoxes, scripture is whole and explains itself completely.

    How can one say the "Key" of Rev 9 represents a "covenant of death"? Where is the exact scriptural connection for that understanding?

    The "Abyss" being the domain of Satan, where is that connection? Did you not read that Jesus holds the key of the abyss in Rev 20?

    Again she says the disgusting thing that stands in a holy place is the GB, wrong. The disgusting thing stands in a holy place 1290 days after the constant feature is removed. Which means there is no GB for three and a half years before this occurrence. One only needs to look at the example of 70 CE. The disgusting thing was the Roman army, not the Jewish leaders. In the end the disgusting thing must match that example.


    The locusts spread lies? Where is that in scripture?

    Respectfully you cannot understand Rev without Dan. They explain each other. When you have someone with knowledge of prophecy look at her work it's as seeing a child trying to explain why the sky is blue. Until one understands that our atmosphere reflects the blue spectrum of the light rays from the sun to our eyes, it's as if we are a child guessing.., but there is only one right answer.

    Unless you know in what order events occur you cannot know what each event is and that cannot be done without the book of Daniel.
     
  12. Hi All:

    I have read some of Doxcey’s writings and although I agree with some of her points of view, I have to confess that I don’t on a lot of things. I do have to side with her that the Watchtower and more explicitly the anointed who are directing the Watchtower do fit the description of the Harlot of Revelation in one of its symbolic threads.

    By their own words, the Watchtower condemns themselves as a harlot and they do aptly fit the description of being the antitypical fulfillment of “the Harlot†of Revelation 17. Below are excerpts from the Insight on the Scriptures Volume 1 under the heading “Harlotâ€.

    Paragraph 1 under the heading Harlot in Insight says this…

    A prostitute- The term is usually applied to a female who engages in sex relations outside the marriage bond, especially if she customarily does this for some form of hire. In fact, the Greek term por′ne (harlot; fornicatrix; prostitute) comes from a root meaning “sell.†(Re 17:1, ftn) The Hebrew term zoh•nah′ (harlot; prostitute) comes from the root verb za•nah′, meaning “play the harlot; have immoral intercourse; commit prostitution; fornicate.â€â€”See PROSTITUTE.

    The bride of Christ although thought to be made up of individual members who can be either male or female, as a composite figure are seen to be “female†and are portrayed as the “bride†of Christ. And being the “bride†of Christ they are in essence engaged to Christ prior to their marriage. In Hebrew terms, that was similar to actually being married and they were termed “betrothed†and were considered to be in a contract or covenant with Christ. That covenant is symbolized by eating the bread of the loaf of the new covenant at the memorial and by drinking the wine of the cup of that same covenant. No one can argue that the “anointed†are not covenanted or contracted in marriage to the Christ.

    Now, I am not suggesting for one minute that this is something that has been done on a physical level, but the fulfillment of this standard of the Harlotry of the Watchtower is spiritual. On a physical level though, a harlot is someone who has something to “sell†or exchange for “payment†or something deemed by the parties of equal value in return. In actual prostitution what is for sale is sex in exchange for money. Now these terms are negotiable and the harlot or prostitute can accept anything in exchange for her services. Also, by incorporating the second definition of harlot above… The Hebrew term zoh•nah′ (harlot; prostitute) comes from the root verb za•nah′, meaning “play the harlot; have immoral intercourse; commit prostitution; fornicate.†So a woman or girl (not touching on male prostitution here) who commits fornication outside of marriage would not necessarily fit the term “harlotâ€, as in her case this could have been an isolated case, followed by repentance, never to be repeated and could have been for love and not money. But on practice or repetition of action she would be "playing the harlot" and fit both definitions of harlotry.

    From paragraph 5 of the same discussion of “Harlot†in the Insight Vol. 1 we can see that a harlot can be forgiven of her harlotry as in the case of Rahab. “Rahab, a harlot of the pagan city of Jericho, displayed a right heart toward Jehovah and acted to assist the Israelite spies sent out by Joshua. For her faith, and works in harmony therewith, her life was spared. She later joined in honorable marriage with Salmon of the tribe of Judah and became an ancestress of Jesus Christ.†So, even though I make this claim that the Watchtower, and in particular the “anointed†who are making her decisions for her are guilty of spiritual fornication and harlotry, those among them who realize this and turn around and repent can and will be forgiven if they will do the works befitting repentance, as Rahab did in her own case. I believe there are currently many among the Watchtower who will act like Rahab in the future if they have not already done so.

    So, what was the harlotrous act of the Watchtower anointed, you say? Before we discuss that once more, let’s look at a scriptural reference in Matthew chapter 4 which amongst other things says...

    8 “Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,9and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.â€10Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.†Matt. 4

    Jesus knew that not only was he to give his life as ransom for mankind, but that he would need to have this message of salvation preached in all the inhabited earth so that mankind could take advantage of the covenant of salvation with God through himself. He also knew that he would have to accomplish this by directing his human disciples (albeit anointed or "born again")who would have as their opposition Satan himself and all his minions both human and angelic. He could have made his job much easier by striking this deal with Satan. I mean, all the devil wanted was one “eency, weency†act of worship and as he said himself in Matthew 4…“All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.†So Satan, the true and original “Mother of the Harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth†(Satan was once a true servant of God in covenant with him, who rebelled and sold his relationship with God for a little perceived power over mankind) was willing to sell to Jesus (his symbolic sex) his rulership over mankind, in “exchange†for or “payment†of “if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.†This was an offer to covenant with Satan.

    We know what Jesus answer was, but for formality I will quote his answer now, he said in reply, "“Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.†Jesus was no harlot; he was a faithful steward of what has been put in “trust†with him, his covenant with God. He values the relationship he has with his heavenly Father and no payment of any sort would be equal compensation for what he had to give in return. Even if it was just one “eency, weency†bit of worship. We should all learn to follow this example. Sadly, though we don’t always do just that, the Watchtower did not and has not still.

    You see the Watchtower and more explicitly the anointed have the same task that Jesus had. They too would have to preach the good news “in all the inhabited earthâ€, and they would have to do this with the opposition of Satan and his hoard. They would have this task because they too were in a covenant with God to do so as we see from Jesus words in Luke 22 where he says…â€28“However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials;29and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,30that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. That covenant was sealed when they all drank from the cup of the new covenant at that same time ( with the exception of Judas who was possessed by Satan and had already been dismissed by Jesus).

    For over a century the anointed were faithful to that covenant and they indeed preached the word zealously amidst fierce opposition from the Devil, always relying on their heavenly Father to open the way for them to do so. Yes, they made mistakes, but they never sold themselves to the Devil, by covenanting with him, but something changed. The preaching work hit a big snag in country after country around the world, but the Watchtower had not lost its zeal for this work nor their reliance on Jehovah. But then it became sincerely difficult to preach the message in some countries and on top of that in some of these lands the brothers and sisters were coming under severe persecution, with even torture and death in many cases. None of us takes that lightly.

    What were the brothers to do? And along comes the devil, and he says …“All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.†Jesus never took the Devil up on his offer, so he (Satan) still retained control over all the earth in the late 80’s and early 90’s of the 20th century. All he asked in return was a couple signatures on an agreement (a covenant) and for the Watchtower to write some flattering articles about the United Nations in their worldwide periodicals the Watchtower and Awake (the sex), they don’t have to actually believe what they write, they just have to write it and have their “dupesâ€, that’s Satan term, not mine, (the publishers of which I was one, I have since repented of my actions and involvement) distribute them to the public worldwide. In exchange (the payment) they would be able to use the authority and influence that being an NGO carried with it, even if that was just perceived authority by others which would ostensibly “open locked doors†to the worldwide preaching work and perhaps lessen or even eliminate the persecutions on their brothers. And oh yes, they would still be able to keep their “library card†for research purposes at the U.N. libraries.

    You see the Watchtower through the anointed on the Governing Body was covenanted to Christ, who was covenanted to God. They had no business “covenanting†with anyone else, especially Satan himself. And this was no one time thing, as the affair lasted for nearly 10 years and almost countless articles in the WT and Awake, until they got caught with their proverbial "hands in the cookie jar" or "with their pants down" by the press in the U.K. which led to the infamous “library card†letter and excuse to the congregations.

    Yes, they were a wife who was greatly loved by her husband Jesus but they are a harlot now, of course. They qualify as a harlot for the above stated reasons and they qualify as the “Mother of the Harlots†because by their actions they make the rest of the anointed among them as well as the rank and file publishers daughters of a Harlot in that they are stained with the same sin and mark of reproach, even unknowingly if need be. You, I and every one of Jehovah’s Witnesses were in that covenant just as the entire nation of Israel was when they entered into the covenant with God through Moses. We cannot covenant ourselves to anyone else while we are covenanted to Christ who is covenanted with God, or we are a prostitute or harlot, just as an Israelite women would be who committed fornication for pay outside of her marriage bond. The GB often cite themselves as “Motherâ€, well Mother sent her children out to do this nefarious task knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Yes, the symbolic sex was our interaction with the public in sharing with them these U.N. flattering articles and our payoff was the nodding approval of our “Mother†and maybe a return visit or a bible study or two.

    Robert King on his old site as the Watchman has quoted many scriptures on this subject and the following are two that I think say it all…

    1“Woe to the stubborn sons,†is the utterance of Jehovah, “[those disposed] to carry out counsel, but not that from me; and to pour out a libation (the wine of fornication), but not with my spirit, in order to add sin to sin;2those who are setting out to go down to Egypt and who have not inquired of my own mouth, to take shelter in the stronghold of Phar′aoh and to take refuge in the shadow of Egypt!3And the stronghold of Phar′aoh must become even for YOU men a reason for shame, and the refuge in the shadow of Egypt a cause for humiliation.4For his princes have come to be in Zo′an itself, and his own envoys reach even Ha′nes. 5Every one will certainly become ashamed (in the future recounting) of a people that bring no benefit to one, that are of no help and bring no benefit, but are a reason for shame and also a cause for reproach.†Isaiah 30

    “Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the LORD.†Isaiah 31:1

    They were covenanted to Jesus, so they should have remained faithful to him and continued praying for help to fulfill their duties as a wife. Not go to another man or men for security and comfort. I don’t know about you, but I for one was ashamed and humiliated when I found this out about the Watchtower and the anointed that direct her, and of my personal involvement in it. You may not feel this way John and that is your prerogative, and I am sure you are not alone in your lack of feelings of shame and humiliation, but I’m quite sure I am not alone either. Yes, they were riding the beast, just as the Catholic Church did in the first Century after apostasy took over the first true Christian Church established by Christ. They (the Watchtower in its current form) are indeed their Mother’s daughter, (the thing they most despise) and she has raised daughters of her own.

    frank
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    FDS1, FDS2

    Hi francis son of charles,

    A couple of years ago I was reading on a site called "The True Bible Code".

    That is the only place I have ever seen the terms FDS1, FDS2, and so on.

    I believe they called themselves "The Lord's Witnesses".

    Was wondering if you were in some way associated with them?

    Thanks

    belongingtojah
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Dear JD,

    I don't remember exactly the details and couldn't retrieve a paragraph in her work mentioning that detail but when she was making comments on Robert's forum, she had made a connection (I don't remember if it was a play on words or an association of idea, maybe the both) between the word desolate/desolation and a related word and she had thereafter developed a whole theology based on that connection in order to prove her point. I had laughed out loud back then and said openly that that connection was totally erroneous. She was using the English word desolate/desolation in order to make a connection with another word in English that sounded the same or something like that.

    The Revelation book was written in Greek and developing a whole theology based on a play on words in English is totally irrelevant. The connection is nothing but contrived and bogus. The connection was also possible in Latin languages because we use more or less the same word, excepted that it's not pronounced the same, but what if you use a Russian version ? an Arabic version ? a Chinese version ?

    Plays on words are relevant on spiritual grounds between Greek words only and that's irrelevant to make an association of idea based on plays on words in English whereas the Greek words are different and not related. Is English favored by God as an ideal language for interpretations ? Said otherwise, if a play on words in Chinese or Swahili was more telling, why would the play on words in English be more relevant ? Why would English be more important in God's eyes if that connection was ever really intended on purpose by Him ? Is there another overlooked language which we'd need in order to improve our interpretation of the Bible ? That's irrelevant to base a theology on one unique language or translation (furthermore, what if the translation isn't great or if several synonyms exist???)... It is possible that a translation of Greek puns may not be possible in English but we shouldn't use connections possible in English in order to spin spiritual connections between two Greek words that aren't related semantically or phonetically or that were never intended to be connected in any other way. That'd be mere speculation !

    It's the same with the paragraph that you had posted the other day about tribulation. The NT was written in Greek, not in Latin. In Greek, GT is "thlipsis megale" and isn't related phonetically with the Latin word tribulation and isn't semantically either to wheat or else.

    You had written : A tribulum...from which the word tribulation comes from.

    Yes, tribulation comes from tribulum, but in Latin, not in Greek and Matthew was written in Greek, not in Latin. That's what sophism is, a reasoning that is logical at first but that is erroneous upon closer look. Doxey's reasoning may seem logical and on-topic but the latter is based on a far-fetched connection that goes beyond what is written.

    There is a link between tribulation and tribulum or anything related to wheat but is there the same relation in Greek ? Said otherwise, is "thlipsis" related
    to "wheat" and to connate verbs like "to sift", for example, like the pair tribulation/tribulum in Latin is ? If not, then the connection is mere speculation and a fable which is unacceptable to me when it comes to biblical and prophetical interpretation.

    I'm sorry JD, I don't want to be mean but I won't endorse scriptural interpretations and give credit to their authors when said interpretations are based on mere plays on words in languages that aren't the original ones.

    Now, we can apply the same reasoning on her that she uses on the GB, that is that if a part of her arguments backing her interpretations aren't tenable, are too thin, too sketchy, then what credibility does she really have and what weight do her statements have as a teacher ?

    I'm not criticizing you here JD but if Doxey's theories must lead people to sacrifice their lives and the lives of their families by implication, in that they should leave the JWs (with the consequences of which we're all aware), her theories should be ironclad and flawless, which is not the case at all...

    I'll write more later, it's late here now.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hey JD,

    That's funny but I was just looking up in the dictionary the differences of meaning of the word sophism between French and English and I found this in the Larousse dictionary :

    "Raisonnement vicié à la base reposant sur un jeu de mots, un argument séduisant mais faux, destiné à induire l'interlocuteur en erreur."

    Reasoning being erroneous at the beginning and being founded on a play on words, a seductive argument but wrong, destined to deceive the interlocutor.

    I won't give here bad motives to Doxey. She must be honest, sincere and truly convinced that her interpretations are correct but good faith isn't a guarantee of veracity.

    What's the point for someone to get out of a hole if he falls into a deeper one shortly after ? The only way to impede a GB next-gen from hatching out is to nip it in the bud. Remember the saying? : "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

    Edit : Furthermore, she has very, very good points on other subjects and has a very subtle understanding of doctrinal issues. If she weren't be so adamant in her conviction that she possesses the truth and that those of the anointed who don't buy into her theories can't be truly anointed as a result, I might have taken her seriously and given her the credit that she deserves, which I'm doing anyway because I just gave Caesar what belongs to Caesar, figuratively speaking.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2013
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Here are two examples to illustrate my previous points :

    1) You all know that I make the connection between the last Supper (and the way Jesus directed it) with the Jewish betrothal ceremony. In fact, the last Supper is a reenactment of the betrothal ceremony as it was done back then. What if I mentioned as a proof of my point that in French, the word "alliance" means "covenant" but also "wedding ring" ? What will you English people think ? Surely that Utuna should stop smoking pot... That's a play on words and an interesting association of idea in French but it proves nothing on spiritual and biblical grounds...

    2) You all know that verse : "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." - John 1:1

    You English people, you use the expression "I'm with you" when you want to say that you agree with someone. What if someone said that that verse shows twice that the Word was in union with God, in agreement with him because "the Word was with God" may also mean that they agree each other on everything ? That's way too far-fetched and doesn't make sense in other languages...

    Hope it helps !
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I believe most have missed a certain give away, so to speak. This whole issue is based on “an illustrationâ€￾. It is also based on a word. That word is NOT “parousiaâ€￾. (Mt. 24:44, 46) That word here, is erchomia, meaning:
    1. to come
    a. of persons​
    1. to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving​
    2. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public​
    2. metaph.
    a. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
    b. be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
    3. to go, to follow one

    The other Greek word (Mt. 24:50) that applies “to the contextâ€￾, is heko, meaning:
    1. to have come, have arrived, be present
    2. metaph.
    a. to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower: to come upon one (unexpectedly)​
    to come upon one, of things endured

    If we are to consider the “contextâ€￾ of this illustration when it was given, it applied to a future time, yet to occur. As of today, it has not happened yet!
    It also appears that "the faithful slave" and, "the evil slave" are yet to be identified.
     
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    Thinking

    Thinking Guest



    I know this sounds dumb, but could they be yet to be appointed
    perhaps after the fall of the watchtower society, when those gifts are given out?
    Thinking
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Thinking…what you have said/asked does not sound dumb at all.

    Jesus said that happy was that slave if when he (Jesus) arrived found that slave doing so. Well…if Jesus arrived today, I suppose that we could say that he would find the WTS doing so…but his arriving today would be pre-GT….and he said that he is to arrive after the GT…so since due to the GT and therefore during the GT, there won’t be an WTS, then who will prove to be doing the feeding during that time (during the GT) so that when he (Jesus) arrives he finds them doing so? :confused:
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The two witnesses and those with them.

    "And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed." (Dan 11:33-35)
     

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