what when how who is the slave that is to do the feeding?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by john, Apr 4, 2013.

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    Utuna

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    One important detail is :

    “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings." - Mat24:45-47

    "And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so!" - Luke 12:42-43

    If the measure of food supply must be given at the proper time, it means that there are spiritual truths that will remain ignored until the Holy Spirit reveals them to the FDS. That implies that the anointed ones don't know everything, that their understanding goes improving step by step and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the true conductors of the orchestra, so to speak.

    Those who will prove to be doing the feeding during that time may be those who will receive and impart faithfully and discreetly the food, the understanding, that will have been given at the proper time to them. However, when the end comes, everything changes...

    The Bible foretells an outpouring of Holy Spirit during the time of the end. It'll take place after the trampling of the holy city, the defiling, devastation and the refining of the temple (Ez9; Luke21:24; Rv11:1-2) and under the Babylonian yoke (see Daniel and his three friends) and so whilst and until "the two witnesses" are silenced/killed/held captive by the beast (Rv11:7). Jesus, the Great Cyrus, comes right after this, defeats Babylon the Great/little horn?*, resurrects/changes the anointed, rebuilds the temple whilst the remainder of the beasts (Dn7:11-12, Dn7:26) gathers together in order to fight against Jesus and his armies at Armageddon.

    * Josh, I know what you're going to tell me here... :p If my memory doesn't betray me, we don't agree on this... I don't remember, I haven't been studying Daniel and Rv for a while now.

    The FDS may well be those who will survive the destruction and the removal of the weeds when the Temple is devastated because Jesus' inspection will find them busy, watching and faithful. So the FDS is currently a prospective entity and will be appointed as such for the "two witnesses" assignment to come. It would surprise me that those who will compose the "two witnesses" may have lacunas in their understanding and may not be the FDS which means that Jesus will appoint them as such right at the start of their assignment...

    I wrote a quick summary out of memory so if you think that I made a mistake or forgot something, please tell me !

    Edit: I hope that my post is clear enough, I don't have the time to rephrase it for more readability as I usually do... lol
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Ha, I beat you this morning in our posts... Yet mine was short and sweet... ;)

    You have everything in perfect order...lol Your chronology as mentioned above is correct. Although I would add it's actually the "little horn" that turns on "Babylon the great" being two separate entities.

    Other then that you show a knack for chronology in scripture that's rarely seen brother. ;)

    I get more and more excited about the work we have ahead...
     
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    Utuna

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    Yours was short and sweet ? lol Yes, nobody copies and pastes like you do... :p
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, English is already my first language so I don't feel the need to impress anyone with typing out quotes and scriptures. :p
     
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    Utuna

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    Dear Thinking,

    There is a principle that, in my opinion, is much more important than it seems : "(if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?)" - 1Tim3:5

    If those of the anointed aren't able to understand, master, bring to fruition and even improve the gift that they have received (Mat25:14-46) on a local level, how will they be able to do it on a greater scale, why ! even on a universal scale ?

    That's why I can't grasp how anointed individuals may state shamelessly that the JWs are utterly wrong, that they'll just receive what they deserve, leave them in a headlong rush, leaving them in the lurch and them anointed ones ending up alone on their own as a result, surrounded by a few fervent supporters, and later expecting that their gifts will fructify and improve to the point that they'll be able to manage the ambiguous situation for the GC and terribly demanding situation for the anointed ones that the GT will constitute and even more able to manage the 1000 years in heaven where there are angels to judge and billions of resurrected ones on earth to manage, whom may be much harder, more stubborn and wicked than expected... Those anointed ones may think that it'll be a piece of cake and that they'll just have to kill mercilessly those who disagree like petty despots would ?

    Granted, Jesus possesses God's Holy Spirit and the latter is powerful but, as written in Hebrews, he went down anyway on earth in order to learn how humans are, how they live and cope with their problems and flaws. Thus, that's beyond me how some anointed ones don't grasp that they must take advantage of their presence on earth to learn more about human psychology, about what life is really about in an ambiguous situation as any human situation can be, about the sufferings, but also about the wonderful qualities and abilities of their fellow humans before they go to heaven and then start judging them and helping them to get closer to God. That's what Jesus did and, yet, I notice some of the anointed quibbling over words or half-true interpretations whereas the real point of their calling is elsewhere... That's beyond me !

    Is the Truth and their calling only about knowledge, understanding and being in a supposed teacher position or not ? What a joke ! They're so puffed up with knowledge ! Knowledge comes from God but nothing will replace their experience acquired while trying to love others in an ambiguous situation, despite hatred and contempt and while trying to find loving and ingenious ways to help others to understand vital truths despite relative or absolute skepticism. Jesus and the apostles said countless times that love, concern, understanding and mercy would really matter in the end... Why are those qualities so important ? There must be a reason ! And here and now, we see sometimes people using their status of anointed to patronize and belittle those who don't buy into their theories. Is it really how they apprehend and conceive their role as anointed individuals now and in the future ? What kind of shepherds are they and will they be ? All about knowledge... nothing but knowledge....

    The way you see how some anointed people treat other humans and their b/s in the faith, the same way they're likely to be and treat others in heaven... Just as Paul said, they proudly quibble and quarrel over words and the so-called knowledge of theirs in order to defend like kinglets their tiny knowledge realms whereas one day, they'll be asked to judge angels, may be acquainted with deep truths and terrifying secrets and may be asked to manage extremely difficult and delicate situations... If those anointed ones can't get over the WT-gate, how will they manage and overcome the issues that lay ahead of us all ?

    Just at observing some of them, we can grasp that they haven't been appointed yet, and even less rewarded as the GB believed once, and if they have been, then it wasn't the powerful and wise God in whom I believe, whom I trust and for whom I'm ready to give up my life...

    Edit: Many anointed ones are faithful, loving and have genuinely understood the reason why God called them and I praise, commend and pay hommage to them all !
     
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    SingleCell

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    Really well laid out Utuna, I appreciate the thoughts.

    You do indeed show a knack for chronology, which I'm sorely missing :)
     
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    Utuna

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    There is something that doesn't add up in what I wrote above though. That's also here where I admit to be stuck.

    There are two appointments, one as a slave over the domestics and another one over the belongings once the Master is back.

    As it is commonly accepted here, the first appointment took place in 33CE and the second (the reward) will take place when Jesus comes back. In the meantime and over the centuries, anointed individuals have received from the Holy Spirit what they needed for the Bible and some spiritual points to be discovered, rediscovered and passed on to us all.

    In a nutshell, Babylon the Great, the Harlot, along with the other beasts which she'll ride, will attack and devastate the spiritual Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple and will impose her yoke upon the three of them during what we call "the appointed times of the nations". Once those times are over, Jesus, the Great Cyrus, comes, receives dominion which will have been taken by the Court (Daniel7:26) from the little horn/Babylon, frees his anointed brothers and rewards those who will have been found faithful and discreet by appointing them over his belongings, etc. So, the "two witnesses'" preaching work (when the GC really takes shape, (cup of fresh water, etc.)) will take place whilst Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple are devastated and in exile and also during this time, the beast begins waging war against them and ends up killing/silencing/helding them captive.

    When I talked about appointments soon in my posts above, that was ambiguous because I meant above all the "two witnesses" being already considered somewhat as faithful and discreet because I can't imagine the "two witnesses" carrying out such an assignment without having been sorted out previously and considered as outstanding, so to speak, although not appointed officially yet as faithful and discreet and as a result over the Master's belongings.

    Here is where my reasoning comes into play, the GT will do a refining and as a conclusion, only the faithful anointed ones will survive (the prophecies indicate that there will be a slaughter) so the FDS that will be considered as such may only be the said surviving faithful ones and they will be rewarded a bit later when their Master comes. But, if there are only faithful and discreet slaves left after the refining work is done (because the bad ones will have been removed, sorted out), how can there be any doubt regarding how they will fare? them nevertheless still having to prove their faithfulness in order to be appointed and rewarded in the end. In my opinion, between the moment when they are considered faithful and discreet by being entrusted with the final preaching work and the moment when they are rewarded, their faithfulness will have to be proven by enduring till the end, it being death for some, being silenced or held captive till Jesus comes. They will be rewarded because they will have carried out their assignment under the status of faithful and discreet slave... After the removal of all the bad slaves, Jesus will obviously consider those that are left as faithful and discreet, will entrust them with the "two witnesses" assignment (there will be a moment in-between when they are sealed) and the latter ones will have not to compete each other in order to prove who's faithful or unfaithful (unfaithful ones being already out of the game), but will have to have their faith and dedication tested "as far as blood".

    "So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Indeed, consider closely the one who has endured such contrary talk by sinners against their own interests, that YOU may not get tired and give out in YOUR souls. In carrying on YOUR contest against that sin YOU have never yet resisted as far as blood, but YOU have entirely forgotten the exhortation which addresses YOU as sons: “My son, do not belittle [the] discipline from Jehovah, neither give out when you are corrected by him; for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines; in fact, he scourges every one whom he receives as a son.â€￾" - Hebrews 12:1-6

    So john, the answer to your question is : After the refining work of the GT, there will be only faithful and discreet slaves because all the bad ones will have been removed but they will be rewarded as such only if Jesus finds them doing so when he comes. Obviously, when I talk about bad slaves, I'm not talking about false Christs, those who perform wonderful signs, etc.

    "The Son of man will send forth his angels, and 1) they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 2) At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen." - Matt13:41-43

    If the judgment begins by the house of God, then the day of reckoning for the anointed ones must take place "around" the moment when the GT begins because Jesus' illustrations say that the angels will remove the weed-like individuals from the kingdom. When all the faithful anointed ones (and those having been beaten softly or badly) are the only ones left, then the gathering of the GC begins through the final work of the "two witnesses". So to speak, by having Israel, Jerusalem and the temple devastated, that's as if Jehovah had figuratively shouted to everyone squatting his kingdom : "Get out of here and I just want my faithful ones to stay around here for the final preaching work"...

    Does my explanation make sense ? Please, tell me if there are mistakes.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Brother, tell me, are you still working with the thought that the moment Jesus comes and receives kingship that this starts Armageddon? Or have you looked at my work with there being 75 days still after Jesus is enthroned and holy spirit is poured out, before the new world comes in?

    Again I have to point out that there is a time period after the GT with mankind still on earth. Look at Rev 6:11; "And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been." When Jesus is enthroned and the holy spirit is poured out and those anointed are raised there will still be those on earth who will kill their brothers, but ultimately the chronology shows that this takes place at the end of the 1260 days, then 45 days later the disgusting thing stands in a holy place, then 30 days later the new world comes in. (Dan 12) The call to flee into the mountains is right before the end and is literal for the faithful still on earth of the GC.

    I can't quite make out your understanding of what happens directly after the end of the 1260 day GT.

    Thanks... ;)
     
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    Utuna

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    No, according to Daniel, Jesus is enthroned just around the fall of Babylon/little horn* as dominion is taken from the latter and given to Jesus and to the Holy Ones of the Supreme One... (see the mountain with the stone thrown at the feet of the statue whose head is Nebuchadnezzar)

    Also : "And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.â€￾" - Rv11:15

    The seventh trumpet is blown just after the "two witnesses" are resurrected.

    Daniel and Rv both say that the Holy Ones and Jesus receive the kingdom right after the Holy Ones are defeated. Armaggedon will take place later : "But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season." - Dn7:12

    * Said otherwise, the fall of Babylon marks the enthronement of Jesus. He's the Great Cyrus, which is quite telling...

    Now, it's time to have some shuteye ! ;)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay, let me approach this in a way that you will either confirm your current understanding or to learn something new... ;)

    Let's start by asking a question. The immense image of Daniel 2, you rightly say this is Gods kingdom putting an end to mans rule, however, please provide scriptural proof that this account is speaking about the moment Jesus is enthroned. Please also provide evidence that this event is speaking about a single day. Please provide scriptural proof that the stone that topples the statue occurs the moment Jesus is enthroned and is not just a metaphor or parable of Gods Kingdom taking over in the new world. In chronology of scripture it must be exact without paradoxes. In your current understanding is this the moment Jesus is enthroned, Armageddon?

    As for the little horn being Babylon the great, again you would have to prove that connection. Does it not make sense that the little horn is what the Harlot is riding? You quote Daniel 7:11,12; “I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking; I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season." If you notice there is a time period spoken of here. A time and a season after the beast is killed (Obviously Anglo-America) and then the other beasts (The rest of the nations) are allowed to live on. Now how long is a time? Of course 360 days. (Rev12:14) Now as for a season? There are four in a scriptural year, that of spring, winter, summer, and fall. So a fourth of 360 is 90. Now we have the beast going down 450 days before the rest of nations in the end. How does that fit in? You have nations surviving after this beast is destroyed. Is there not a paradox in your current understanding there?

    Look right after this account in Daniel 7; “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin." So it's after this that Jesus is enthroned! After the beast goes down.

    Now as for paradoxes in your current understanding that cannot exist. You still have to answer how when the holy spirit is poured out and those under the alter are told to wait until their brothers are killed, how can this be after Jesus is enthroned if there are no "bad people" on earth as you say? I certainly hope you do not believe as Robert King does that we will be transfigured for three and a half years here on the planet in front of everyone?

    You are saying this just because in chapter 11 the seventh trumpet is blown in verse 15 and the resurrection of the two witnesses are discussed in verse 11, but think about this, the beginning of chapter 11 discusses the beginning of the two witnesses work and the measuring of the temple before it is destroyed. So does that mean that the entire work of the two witnesses occurs between the sixth and seventh trumpet??? You have a problem there, a paradox in your understanding. What if in suggestion this information was put in this location because they are raised the moment the seventh trumpet is blown?

    The seals are opened after the trumpets and bowls, and I will post again at the end here the explanation of why.

    Tell me if I'm wrong but it seams you contradict yourself here by saying that no one except those faithful will survive after Jesus is enthroned but yet you say Armageddon comes later? Please explain how that is not a paradox...

    Also please show in Rev and Dan where the Holy ones receive the kingdom directly after they are defeated (as you say). And what do you mean by defeated. When the man of lawlessness is revealed? When the constant feature is removed? When the little horn comes against Gods people 1290 days later? Because you have to realize what most people miss, there are two comings against Gods people just like in the first century. First when the Romans encircled the city and the sacrifices for the Emperor were stopped, then 1290 days later when the disgusting thing stood in a Holy place at 70 C.E.. The Watchtower is to announce Jehovah's kingdom to the world, it is a constant feature to Rome, not to Jerusalem.

    As promised here is the reason why the chronology of Revelation is laid out with the trumpets and the bowl at the same moment and the seals after;

    It’s important to note that the original Scriptures did not include chapter numbers, or verse spacing. Such as Rev 8:1 should have begun with verse two, hence why everyone has always thought the seals came before the trumpets, however, the opening of the seventh seal brings in silence for a half hour, certainly not a trumpet blast. Here is a poignant scripture discussing this moment at Zep 1:7: “Keep silence before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is near, for Jehovah has prepared a sacrifice; he has sanctified his invited ones.â€￾ In fact scripture tells us in what order the seals are placed. Let’s read Rev 11:19: “And the temple sanctuary of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary.â€￾ Now notice that this is immediately after the seventh trumpet blew in verse fifteen. Now let’s direct our attention to chapter four of Revelation, verse one: “After these things I saw, and, look! An opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard was as of a trumpet, speaking with me, saying: “Come on up here, and I shall show you the things that must take place.â€￾ So the seals come directly after the trumpet blasts! (1Th 4:16, Rev 19:11)

    At this point the seventh trumpet, seventh bowl and as well the first six seals all occur on one single day, that of the day Jesus is enthroned at the end of the one thousand two hundred and sixty day tribulation! These are the Seven Thunders! Let’s take a look at the sixth seal and the description of events following its opening at Rev 6:12: “And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred.â€￾ Now let’s see the account at the seventh bowl. “And the seventh one poured out his bowl upon the air. At this a loud voice issued out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!â€￾ And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred and a great earthquake occurred such as has not occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive an earthquake, so great.â€￾ (Rev 16:17, 18)

    Now let’s pay close attention to the next verses in chapter sixteen and how the seventh bowl correlates with the sixth seal in chapter six and the stars falling from heaven. “And a great hail with every stone about the weight of a talent descended out of heaven upon the men.â€￾ (Rev 16:21a) Now let’s compare chapter six: “And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs.â€￾ (Rev 6:13) And of the mountains; “And the heavens departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island were removed from their places.â€￾ (Rev 6:14) “Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found.â€￾ (Rev 16:20) Now what is the response from those in the world who experience this event? Rev 6:15-17 tells us: “And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?â€￾

    There are also five other events within the Seven Thunders to examine and let’s start with the first four seals, and the ride of the four horsemen. The first horsemen and foremost event of this day is the crowning of Jehovah’s representative Christ Jesus as king as we read at Rev 11:15: “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.â€￾

    Now Rev 6:1-8 describes the triumphant ride of these four horsemen in accomplishing Jehovah’s purposes on earth. The meaning of their rides can be found in three locations in scripture,those being Revelation chapter six, Zechariah chapter six, and Revelation chapter eleven. Let’s read of the seals being opened and of their riding forth at Rev 6:2: “And I saw, and, look! A white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.â€￾ We find the second horse at Rev 6:4: “And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.â€￾ Next at Rev 6:5: “And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!â€￾ And I saw, and, look! A black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand.â€￾ As well Rev 6:8: “And I saw, and, look! A pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha’des was closely following him.â€￾

    At Zech 6:6 we read: “As for the one in which the black horses are, they are going forth to the land of the north, and as for the white ones, they must go forth to behind the sea; and for the speckled ones, they must go forth to the land of the south. And as for the parti-colored ones, they must go forth and keep seeking where to go, in order to walk about in the earth.â€￾ Also a description is found at Rev 11:17,18: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king, but the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.â€￾

    In the fifth seal we see a wonderful occurrence that has been prophesied and anticipated for millennia, ever since those first followers of Jesus gathered in a room almost two thousand years ago at Pentecost and received the Holy Spirit as it was poured out upon them sealing them and bringing them into a covenant with Jehovah for a heavenly hope. A similar event will occur when Jesus is enthroned, and not only that but those who are sealed in that covenant position who have lived and died in service to Jehovah will be raised to heavenly life. As well those who have the hope of living for ever in the renewed paradise earth will also receive the Holy Spirit in sealing them at that moment! As we read at Joel 2:28 those alive will share a similar experience as those of the first century: “And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy.â€￾ Now of those who are raised to heavenly life; “who will eventually total 144,000â€￾ the ninth verse of chapter six in Revelation reads: “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?â€￾
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hey Josh,

    You wanna know the answer to your questions ? Go see the funny drawing about Daniel that I posted the other day and follow the line V3... :p
     
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    disco

    disco Guest

    Doxsey and Robert

    After reading all of Doxsey's articles i have come to understand that she is not interpreting prophecy by the things we see and witness (physical)

    Jesus did not point us to Satan's world but God's word, if we are to let the Bible interpret itself we would have a better understanding of it.

    When we are told to flee Babylon, we are told not to take anything with us, i get the impression that most of the members here fled Babylon but might have gone inside their houses and took some possession with. When we flee are we not to rid ourselves with the lies being taught there?

    I strongly recommend all to read these articles to get a better understanding of Revelation

    http://thebeast-obadiah.blogspot.com/
    http://revelation12-thewomangivebirth-obadia.blogspot.com/
    http://obadiah-1914andthefaithfulslavetoday.blogspot.com/
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Here, I guess that you meant the anointed ones, not the actual mankind.

    Well, I didn't give all the details for this period otherwise it would have been a tall order to write and the same for you all to read.

    I've reread quickly what you wrote and you're talking about the "call to flee into the mountains" being right before the end, but doesn't that call concern Jerusalem? which is supposed to have been devastated and having remained so till Jesus comes and begins to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem ? The "two witnesses" final preaching work take place after Babylon the Great and the other beasts destroy Jerusalem...

    There are other things that I don't understand in your posts above but I don't have the time to broach them now or to make a thorough research. Sorry, I'll try to find the time later this week-end.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Quick example :

    You said : Tell me if I'm wrong but it seams you contradict yourself here by saying that no one except those faithful will survive (in God's kingdom) after (the refining work, I meant), Jesus is enthroned (about 1260 days after the end of the GT) but yet you say Armageddon comes later? Please explain how that is not a paradox...

    I said that the GT will start by the subjection and devastation of Israel, Jerusalem and the temple. Once the GT has accomplished what Jehovah will have called the northerner for, he cuts the GT short and then the "two witnesses" preaching work starts, which lasts 1260 days, till they are defeated by the beast/little horn/BTG. The northerner (beasts (Rv17:11) + BTG/harlot[SUP]#[/SUP]) will be God's instrument to punish and refine his people and will destroy the weeds or/and have them removed in one way or the other from God's kingdom. That's a statement of the obvious but if the weeds are removed from the kingdom, it obviously means that there won't be unfaithful/bad slaves left in the kingdom after the GT. Once the 1260 days are over and the GC gathered, Jesus comes, frees/resurrects the anointed ones who were under the Babylonian yoke (its dominion is removed and given to Jesus by the Court) and Jesus starts to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem surely by having his angels collect all the anointed spread all around the earth. In the meantime, the nations destroy Babylon the Great once the last captives are out of there and the nations (Assyrian empire in Mika*) gather together for Armageddon in order to fight against Christ and his armies (along with the holy ones, Rv17:14).

    There were great discussions about it on Robert's forum and I had had back then the time to make the research and had all the details in mind but now, I can't remember them all at the drop of a hat.

    And please remember that that's not my favorite part. :p

    # or what she represents (certainly not the bad slave)
    * I agree with Robert here.

    That's all for today, sorry, I gotta go.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No, I meant mankind. There is a period of time after the GT. It seems you have the idea that at the end of the 1260 days is Armageddon, on that day. I will go into this further while answering your next post.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Brother, from what it appears you think all this will occur on one single day? The last day of the 1260 days. That's a lot to happen in one day.

    Here, let me try and explain it a differn't way. The 1260 days begin with the removal of the constant feature. Okay, now watch at Dan 12:11; “And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

    There is a time period of 30 days after the 1260 days end...

    Now look at Dan 12:12, there is a period of time that extends after the 1290 days end; “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty‐five days!"

    All three of these time periods start on the same day. Do you see it?

    I think I'll stop there, I've given you enough to chew on, however I will once again leave you with one point you still are missing from my post last night. There are two "comings" against Jerusalem. One when the city is surrounded like in 66 C.E. when the constant feature was removed, Then 1290 day later is when the disgusting thing stands in a holy place, this is when the "Northerner" comes against Gods people to kill them 30 days after Jesus is enthroned, touching Jehovah's eyeball, and causing the reports out of the north. (Dan 11:44)

    Anyway, I'll leave it off here, because I gave you allot in my post last night you haven't digested, besides throwing in more today...
     
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    Utuna

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    Dear JD,

    Haven't heard from you since then. I'm sorry that my outspokenness may have saddened or upset you. As I often told about the GB, I want justice, not vengeance which also means that I must consider and treat equally all those who consider themselves as teachers and anointed, just like the GB does. I have never begun any thorough research in order to "debunk" doxey because, even though her explanations written out at length on Robert's forum were enough for me to understand that her conclusions are erroneous, I consider that it's not my role to act as if I figuratively belonged to an alternative "congregation for the doctrine of the faith". I tell people what I think about the theories under scrutiny whenever I have the opportunity to do it, backing them by a few explanations and arguments, but my goal isn't to debunk, humiliate or destroy the credibility of anyone. In my opinion, that's not because someone is mistaken that he's a loser. In the same vein, that's not because I consider a theory as erroneous that I have doubt about its author being anointed. That's not because doxey is right about 1914 being erroneous that she's right about her theories. That's not because she's overtly at variance with the GB that her theories are necessarily correct. Being against the GB isn't a magic powder that would wash people and thoughts whiter than white... Regarding spotting mistakes and errors of judgment, I don't expect less from others towards me. I always asked others in my posts to tell me if I was wrong and to tell me about it.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Amen...
     
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    Utuna

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    Here is typical fleshly way of reacting and of judging others :

    "When the disciples James and John saw this they said: “Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and annihilate them?â€￾ But he turned and rebuked them. So they went to a different village." - Luke9:54-56

    Unfortunately, that behaviour is so widespread, nowadays as in Jesus' days.
     
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    Utuna

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    When I was working in a school as an overseer, I had authority over pupils, could give them orders and could punish them in case they disobeyed. One day, I was discussing with the director of the school and he told me something very thoughtful, as I had already some experience in dealing with kids, I knew at once that he was right.

    "When you have a certain authority, you may also have the means to punish others. However, paradoxically, the more you have authority, the less you will use those means to punish others. Obviously, there are moments when you must use punishment but only the weak punish the pupils in order to impose respect, which isn't respect but fear. That's how we can notice that a teacher has no authority over the pupils : they shout and punish them more than the other teachers. That's a sign of weakness. A teacher who manages pupils properly will rarely shout or punish them. Punishment is like nuclear dissuasion, just the thought of it being used is enough to calm people down."

    What he said that day is very true. Violence is the force of the weak. I worked for several years as a school overseer and although I made mistakes at first and admit that it wasn't easy all days, I was able a few years later to notice what experience had taught me and also how much that director was true. Every year, there were new and younger overseers in our oversight team and they would often punish the pupils, shout at them like crazy in the schoolyard and even insult them (which I think is unacceptable). They thought that they would be obeyed and respected through those means, which was a huge mistake. One of my coworkers had always problems in the dormitory at night, having to shout out and to punish the boarders very often, even late at night. It was always the mess the nights he was there. I had to oversee that one dormitory too during other nights of the week and it was a piece of cake. Among other reasons for this, kids are very sensitive to justice and to the respect they're shown and they respect in return those who have authority and who are just and respectful with them.

    Violence is the force of the weak and whenever I read posts in other forums or else in which people are insulting each other (or insulting like crazy the JWs, the GB, the WT or whoever else), being judgmental or speaking contemptuously about others, no matter what said others may have said or done, it reminds me of what that director said. The same is true about elders in the congregations. Real authority and respect aren't something that can be imposed. Violence, "zeal", gesticulations and "noise" are often a sign of weakness. Those who behave like this, they think that they're great, witty and full of courage but they're lying to others and above all, to themselves.

    "The sectarianism of the poor judgments served him at times as willpower": I like that sentence very much. It's taken from a novel in which the father of the hero was hiding his weakness by taking arbitrary decisions, by being dogmatic, judgmental and overzealous. I've noticed this so often among people around me at work, among the JWs and the X-JWs. I'm not impressed by the fireworks, by the smoke and mirrors of those who shout their zeal and religious determination from the rooftops. I may be mean now but such things are often a mark of weakness, of lack of discernment, of shallowness of understanding. They think that showing off on religious grounds will make up for their lack of judgment... lol

    (Proverbs 16:32) He that is slow to anger is better than a mighty man, and he that is controlling his spirit than the one capturing a city.
    (Proverbs 22:24) Do not have companionship with anyone given to anger; and with a man having fits of rage you must not enter in,
    (Proverbs 29:11) All his spirit is what a stupid one lets out, but he that is wise keeps it calm to the last.

    I'm not saying that people shouldn't speak out and that those who do it are dumb. I'm just saying that we must use our wits and that "psychological" reasons may explain why some people take decisions, reasons that unfortunately have often nothing to do with faith.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2013

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