Who composes the Israel of God? (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Acalia, May 13, 2017.

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    Acalia

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    (Go to Part 1)

    Were the Christians in the first century all "chosen"?
    After having amply demonstrated that "the Israel of God" is composed of all Jehovah's worshipers since Christ's time, and that its "sheep-like" components have two different life hopes, that is, the "little flock" in heaven to reign with Jesus and the "great crowd" on earth to live forever, we wonder whether in the first century, as Jehovah's Witnesses currently claim, all Christians belonged to the "little flock", the "144'000", or not . Here's what the Watchtower says:
    Not all 144'000 anointed Christians were selected in the first century. Their calling continued throughout the apostolic period and then apparently slowed down. However, it did continue throughout the succeeding centuries into modern times. – The Watchtower, January 15, 2008, p. 22, § 13 (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008046#h=17)
    In particular, this is what the Society claims, though with caution, about the first century:
    Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus' death and resurrection, and it seems that all in the first-century Christian congregation were anointed. – The Watchtower, January 2016, p. 26, § 15 (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2016046#h=26)
    Is that so? It seems to us that we can not prove that in the first century all Jehovah's worshipers were part of the 144'000. Indeed, some clues suggest the opposite. We note that Jesus said, "And I [already] have other sheep" (John 10:16). Jesus, still living on earth, already knew that he had other sheep and the need to gather them; in fact, he uses the present time of the verb. Notice the contrast with this other statement: "when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me [till now] will sit [in the future] on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28). In this case Jesus, choosing conscientiously his words, says that the time when his chosen ones would judge humanity would be future.
    Another clue is found in the resurrections after the resurrection of Christ. There are at least two examples, Tabitha and Eutychus. According to Paul's reasoning, if these two were part of the "little flock" of the 144'000, chosen to reign with Christ in heaven, they would have preferred to remain dead, and while they were alive they would have earnestly desiring to die (2 Corinthians 5:1-8). In the case of these two, the resurrection would have been a disaster! But that is not what happened. (Consider what correctly says this publication of Jehovah's Witnesses: "Those who will reign with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom must likewise be baptized into death. (Mark 10:37-40; Col. 2:12) At their death they lay aside forever their human life, as Jesus did. And at their resurrection they join him in heavenly rulership. This is a baptism performed, not by any human, but by God through his heavenly Son. – United in Worship of the Only True God, P. 98, §7) Therefore those two, as surely many others, were resurrected because they had the hope of living forever, but in a carnal body. And like them, there is to believe that others also had this hope.
    Another interesting indicator is the introduction of the first canonical letter to the Corinthians: "Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God's will, and Sosʹthe·nes our brother, to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" (1 Corinthians 1:1,2). It is quite evident that in the congregation there were "holy ones" along with other disciples of Christ. It is remarkable that Paul specifically makes this distinction: "their Lord and ours." This particular reminds us of the "one flock" who has "one shepherd", where there is no distinction between "sheep", "other sheep" and "little flock".

    Are there still components of "144'000"?
    Yes, undoubtedly. With this article, we are not concerned with determining who are today's components of the "little flock" that will rule with Christ. But we can say with certainty that there are still components of the 144'000 and they will exist until a certain point after the beginning of great tribulation. We have read it clearly in the words of Jesus: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days [... Jesus] will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together" (Matthew 24: 29-31). According to Mark's version, Jesus locates the gathering, saying, "[Jesus] will gather his chosen ones [...] from earth's extremity to heaven's extremity" (Mark 13:27). Perhaps by this particular, we can understand that Jesus will gather the full number of the 144'000, both those who are already in heaven, since they died long ago, and those still alive on earth (note how in Revelation 6: 9-11 those already dead and resurrected in heaven are invited to wait "until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers" still living on the earth). Then we see that the final gathering takes place "with a great trumpet sound": in this respect, compare similar references in 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.
    Also the parable of the wheat and the weeds respond to this question? We will see it when this and other parables will be examined in a next article.

    Acalia & Marta

    acalia.jw@gmail.com
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    The 144000 are they all from physical Israel? or some are from the gentiles? What does the Bible say Rom 9:27,28 Now we will look Rom 11:25, in vs 25 we see a separation from physical Israelites and the full number of the people of the nation has come in. The people from the gentiles are not limited in number. In Rev 7:4 list a limited number from physical Israel. Rom 9:27 mention a limited number a remnant from physical Israel. To what conclusion do we come? Rom 1:24 I am not lord over your faith. But like Apostle Paul in Rom 1:12.

    Love you all Regent Lessard
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Welcome brother to our from, let me ask, and pick your mind, did Cornelius an Italian become an Israelite when baptized?

    Again, welcome...
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Cornelius after being baptize and receiving the Holy Spirit became a spiritual Israelite but not a physical Israelite that are numbered a remnant part of the first spiritual fruits.

    Regent Lessard
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I thank you for your reply dear brother...

    The line of reasoning you present would lead me to ask another question, and if you could bear with me, that would be great! I certainly want to carry your line of thought to it's fruition.

    We read at Rom 2:29 "For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code."

    It seems clear from this scripture that moment on, moving forward with Christianity, the physical Jew is not what makes up an Israelite, but one who is one in heart is a Jew.

    Now, you direct us to Rev 7:4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:"

    By what precedence do you attribute this scripture in Rev 7 to a physical Jew, and not a Jew described for us in Romans 2?

    Thanks and appreciate your understanding...
     
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    Barry

    Barry New Member

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    Hi Acalia & Marta,

    Thanks for your post about the Israel of God. This is exaclty the same way as I think about it.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Also: As a fallow up, I would ask that you include John the Baptist in your response. We can keep in mind Jesus described him as the greatest man born from women, yet the lessor in heaven would be greater then him, hinting that John would not be going to heaven. Thanks...

    Mth 11:11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Hi Regent Lessard

    Welcome to the forum :)
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Israelite discipline by Jehovah for their lack of faith,disobedience ect?. Ro:11:7-10 Ro 11:32 yes indeed. Were the Israelite cut in number for their lack of faith? RO:9:27 RO:11:7,12,15 What about the gentile were they discipline for their faith? NO they were given MERCY- RO:11:31. and not limited in number Ro;11:25. That is why I say that the 144000 in REV:7:4-8 are from Israel in the flesh they have been diicipline by Jehovah decrease RO:11:12,17 RO 11:5 RO 9:27.
    PS I hope you have the first part of this letter I think my finger cot the post reply an disappear. In Christ Love Regent
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Thank you for your response...

    I'll have to disagree in that I don't see any evidence to say there is disciplinary action by God toward physical Israel presenting itself in choosing fewer from it's numbers to rule with Christ.

    As well, you didn't address my question about John the Baptist. How could the greatest of men born in Israel not rule with Christ?

    As to Christians needing discipline, you will find that most here believe that still lies ahead.
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    Hello Regent,
    You say that the 144000 are from Israel in the flesh. But do you think that the 144000 and the anointed are the same group? If it is the case, how is it that there are some anointed that are not Israelites? Or do you think that they are 2 distinct groups?
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    First thing sorry for causing confusion their was only half of my last e-mail that was sent. What I say is that the 144000 in REV:7:4-10 is part of Israel of God a royal priesthood and with the gentile that are chosen by God that receive the new birth from God's Holy Spirit they make up the complete Israel of God the first fruits the future bride of Christ also kings and priests in the kingdom of God. In simple term 144000 chosen from Israel in flesh a small remnant because of their lack of faith plus those of the gentile that exercise faith but that are not limited in number make up the Holy nation the Israel of God the only thing that will limit their number is when Christ come for his marriage and his 1000 year rule time will be up for the calling of the first fruits. For Israel in the flesh what happen Ro:11:5,7-10 now for the gentile Rom:11:17,25 for both of them put together a spiritual nation of kings and priests Rev:5:9,10 I hope that things are a little more clear and the question of Baruq and for any one else. PS In my next e-mail I will give Key Bible text to prove that the Royal Priesthood was not limited in number ect. Love you all.
    .
    From Regent Lessard
     
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    Baruq

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    So to summarize, your point of view is:
    The 144,000 come from israel in the flesh
    The anointed ones are the 144,000 plus a large number of people who are chosen from all nations
    And all this is the spiritual Israel.
    Am I right?
    Do you think that the second group composing the Israel of God is the Great Crowd of Revelation 7?
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    I will make things clearer about the nation of Israel in the flesh that they lost a great privilege of ruling with Christ in GOD"S Kingdom. Let us look up MAT 21:42-44 take note of vs.43 now in MAT 23:37-39 take note of vs.38 Jesus own word. What is the new nation or house of God? Let us look up RO 9:7,8 and EPH:2:19-22 1TIM:3:15 It is clear that their was disciplinary action by Jehovah God toward Israel in the flesh as a Nation but in God's undeserved kindness a remnant of Israel in the flesh was chosen.RO:11:5 What is a remnant? The best example is given here in RO:11:1-5 In Elijah time a remnant LIMITED NUMBER 7000 that had not bent knee to Baal. Now let us take note of the KEY vs.5 In the same way, therefore,at the present season ALSO a REMNANT has turn up according to a CHOOSING due to UNDESERVED KINDNESS. 144000 is a LIMITED NUMBER. Was Israel in the flesh to be LIMITED IN NUMBER if proven FAITHFUL to GOD to be a special property out of all other PEOPLES ( GENTILE). EX:19:5 it was conditional if FAITHFUL vs.6 you YOURSELVES will become to me a KINGDOM of PRIEST and a HOLY NATION. Very clear not a LIMITED NUMBER like 144000. ISRAEL in FLESH reduce in NUMBER because of their lack of FAITH RO:11:20 ROM11:5,7,12,17. Now what about John the Baptist their was no one greater than him born of woman,but the lesser one in the Kingdom of heavens is greater than him. HOW can that be? KEY is born of woman - he was not born of GOD JOH:3:5-8 JOH:1:13. He died before the birth of the new nation the christian congregation by the pouring of GOD"S HOLY SPIRIT. AC:2:1-4 and before Christ death for forgiveness of sin. AC:2:38. The flesh of Christ was blocking the way to the HOLY PLACE HEB:9:8 HEB:10:20 MAT:27:51. The life of JOHN the Baptist ended when Israel in the flesh had lost the privilege to rule with CHRIST as just examine in MAT:21:42-44 MAT:23:37-39. Was John the Baptist a CHRISTIAN? or any one else before the pouring of the HOLY SPIRIT at Pentecost? The answer to that is NO- WHY? RO:8:9 GA:2:20 King James version. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the SON of GOD who love me, and gave himself for me.
    May the love of Christ be with you all, From Regent.
    .
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Baruk you have well understood with the Israel of God the first fruits. Now to answer your question if I view the gentile among the one group witch make the Israel of GOD with the remnant of Israel in the flesh if those gentile make up the great multitude of REV:7. What does the Bible have to say? Let's read REV:7:17 it say's that Christ will rule over them Christ does not rule alone REV:5:10 REV:20:4,6. So Christ rule over the great multitude with his member of his body chosen kingdom of priests witch are the first fruits of God, vs.17 also say's and will guide them to fountains of water of life. It is in the future tense that they will receive the gift of life they and the resurrected in the 1000 year rule of Christ will come to life at the end of that rule. REV:20:5 For the members of spiritual Israel they receive that gift of life for the 1000yr rule of Christ REV:20:4 now you have the answer to your question. IN Christ Regent.
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    We will examine Lu12:32 and see if the term Little Flock apply to all the Israel of God compose of Israelite and Gentile? First we all know that the Bible Interpret the Bible Jehovah alone is the reveler of his Word. To who did Christ come too? The Israelite or the Gentile or both? Let's look up MT:15:22-24 vs 24 very clear. That is the order that Jehovah started the reconciliation and redemption. Israelite First.ROM:10:19. JOH:1:11,12. Did the apostles think when Christ said the words Little Flock it could apply to people of the nations? Some years later when Cornelius,family and friends received the free gift of the Holy Spirit Peter and the Jews that had went with him were Amazed that the Holy Spirit had been poured on the Gentiles that had exercise faith. Now Peter back to Jerusalem explain that event that had just happen to the other apostles, they too where Amazed. AC:10:44,45 AC:11:17,18 What was it that separated the Israelite from the Gentiles to be one New Man? The flesh of Christ. EPH:2:8-22. Also Jesus gave something to Peter to free those Gentiles so they could enter the Kingdom of God. Yes, the Keys of the kingdom of God.MAT:16:19. That had not happen yet when Jesus said the words Little Flock to his disciples. One Key used for the Samaritan AC:8:15 a other AC:10:44. The Gentiles were still lock out. The words Little Flock Apply to who? The Bible Interpret the Bible. With the Love Of CHRIST Regent
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I need to ask you to be more clear when you write please. I think the reason your not getting very many responses is your very vague as to your understanding of the scriptures you present. Instead of just posting scriptures and expecting people to understand, I might ask that you take some time and clarify in ways no one may have a question as to your understanding. We all know the scriptures, but you may understand them differently. Please explain more precisely.

    It is also a good idea to paste the scriptures here that you quote, so one can read your post without moving away from your writing.

    After this entire thread I still have no idea if you believe the little flock includes Jew and Gentile...

    With all Christian love...
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Sorry Joshuastone or any one else if I do not make my self clear enough when I write, the reason is that I do not whant to be Lord on any one faith. but I will try very hard to do better. One other reason is that I am a Old Logger (Woods Man) not a Old Lawyer this being said I have limited education. Sorry for that to. Now for the last e-mail that I sent on the Little Flock with the scripture that we have examine I come to conclusion that it is impossible that it include the gentile it was only for those of Israel in the flesh that exercise faith in Christ. Any one that wants to ask me for more information on the subject feel free my e- mail is theophilerlessard@gmail.com May Christ Love be with you all. Regent Lessard.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Please explain "New Man", and how it pertains to your understanding that only "physical" Jewish related people are of the little flock.

    Can you explain how Jesus telling Peter he would receive the keys before he would use them excludes the gentiles from being part of the little flock?

    Please explain how the Samaritan was not a Gentile, were not half Jew's still Gentiles, and how do you use the term "Samaritan" and not just all those of other nations? If I'm not mistaken the Jewish nation made no distinction between half Jew "Samaritan" and Gentile...
     
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    Regent Lessard New Member

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    To answer your questions Joshua I will start with two word's " APPOINTED TIMES" I will come back to those word's latter. I think that I was not clear enough on EX:19:5-6 this Bible text say"s that all Israel would become a Kingdom of Priests a Holy Nation for God. That privilege would be given to Israel alone an not to the Gentiles among the nation's also their is no mention of a Little Flock like 144000. That was conditional if " Faithful' but they were not as JESUS mention in MAT:21:42-44 MAT:23:37-39. They lost that special privilege as a nation to become a kingdom of Kings and Priests only a Remnant were chosen as mention in ROM 11:5,7,20. Jesus came to the Jew"s first as mention in MATT:15:24 in the context their was a Gentile women that ask for mercy , Jesus replied it is not right to take the bread of the little Children the (Jew's) and throw it to the little Dog's (Gentile). Jesus did not invite her to be part of his Kingdom. With who did Jesus make a covenant for a Kingdom, first? LU:22:29. It was with his 11 Faithful apostles who where Jew's no Gentile was yet invited to part of the Kingdom of God. Here comes the word's "APPOINTED TIME" we will take a example for how it is important for Jehovah God to keep" APPOINTED TIME". We will read ROM:5:6 Christ died at the "APPOINTED TIME" could he have died 1 year before or after a month a week or even a day? and Jehovah would not have cared.NO Christ died at the "APPOINTED TIME" Jehovah is a great time keeper. NOW we come MATT:16:19 when Jesus said to Peter that he would given him the Key's of the Kingdom of heaven. Who is it that receive the gift of the Holy Spirit first? Again The Jew's who are Israelite at the first Pentecost after Christ death their were 120 disciples who receive that gift.AC:2:1-4. The apostle Peter made use of 1 key at the "APPOINTED TIME" by Jehovah for the Samaritans they were baptize and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.AC:8:12-17 One of the question that you ask is about the Samaritans, who are they? We will look that up in 2 Kings 17:22-41 we see the 10 northern tribe of Israel made captive and went to Assyria, vs 24 the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon,Cuthah,Avva,and Hamath and Sepharvaim and had them dwell in the cites of Samaria instead of the son's of Israel,so were they just Gentiles? The answer to this is no,why, let us look up De 29:10-15 let's read slowly take notice of vs 11,12 now 14 and 15 any Gentile that live with the Israelite were part of the Covenant people (Moses) we know they did not have the same privilege but were part of the Covenant people as just read,they could not become king and priest among Israel that for sure. The 2nd Key that Peter used was for true Gentile.AC 10:45. I will answer a other question. Why do I say that only physical Jewish related people are of the little flock,very simple because of their lack of faith they were reduce to a little flock as examine in ROM 11:5,7,12,17,20. Let's remember in EX 19:5,6 it was the whole nation of Israel that was to be king and priest the only thing that change was it change to a spiritual nation including the Gentiles and they are not limited in number Rom 11:25. Not a Little Flock for the Gentile. WE will add up, a little Remnant or Little Flock among the Jew's Israelite plus a unlimited number from among the gentile make up the NEW SPIRITUAL NATION the Israel of GOD ROM 9:6 GA 6:16. that answer a other question. For the question of the new man, when a person receive the new birth from Jehovah by his Holy Spirit that person becomes a new creation 2 CO 5:16,17 COL 3:11 I Hope I answered all your QUESTION.
    Christ love Regent
     

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