Who Really Are The 144,000?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Londoner, Jan 1, 2017.

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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi BelongingtoJah :)

    All of these scriptures are explained in detail in my essay for the thread: "The New Covenant - Solved!" in the General Discussions forum. It's old, so is on the second page of threads.

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Can you please define what you say here? Everything I read says Cornelius was a Greek, yet you say he was a Jew. Are you trying to that he was a Jew living in Greece and speaking there language before coming back to Jerusalem? Are you saying Cornelius would have been a physical Jew?

    If so, please present your evidence of this despite all sources saying he was a Greek, period.

    With all love brother...
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    I've already given evidence regarding Cornelius in the NC essay. You are the one saying that he is Greek. The bible says he was living in Caesarea, and was a soldier of the Italian band. Yes, Cornelius was a Jewish exile (the people of the nations) who was righteous and worshipping God before becoming a Christian. That means he was worshipping God according to the Law, although he was uncircumcised and would have been seen as unclean by the Jews in Jerusalem because he was a Roman soldier. Here is the issue in a nutshell why I'm convinced the bible doesn't teach that non-Jews are in the NC. God says explicitly who the NC is with in Jere 31:31,32 -

    “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

    Who are the parties in the NC? It is the "House of Israel and the House of Judah". No other parties is mentioned. No non-Jews. God says it replaces the Law Covenant (LC) he made with their forefathers that they broke. God says the NC is with the Nation of Israel only. Period. That means after Pentecost 33CE, the holy spirit was falling on Jews or the people of the nations who were descendants of Jews. The holy spirit fell on Cornelius because he was either of the House of Israel or the House of Judah. Period. It is the Jews that God said the NC is with.

    No one on this forum has shown even one scripture that says God has taken non-Jews into the NC. All I get is isolated scriptures taken out of context and ignoring who the bible writers were addressing: Jews. Here is more proof that Cornelius was a Jew. After Cornelius explained his story, Peter said this that the "all is in the NC crowd" ignore. Act 10: 34-36 -

    At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. 36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ: this One is Lord of all [others].

    Did you notice what Peter said in verse 36 which gets ignored by non-Jewish Christians? After praising God over the acceptance of Cornelius, Peter says that God sent out his word to the sons of Israel! Yes, Cornelius was a son of Israel. The holy spirit was directing the 1st century disciples to descendants of Jews, whose forefathers were in the LC. If they accepted Jesus, they were taken into the NC where the blood of Christ cleanses them from their sins against the LC according to Heb 9:15.

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I am sorry brother, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject. Everything I read confirms Cornelius was a Roman Soldier (gentile), a centurion within the Italian band which was a volunteer army from Italy, and that absolutely nothing indicates that he was of Jewish decent, but by all meanings a "Greek".

    With that said, the many reasons I have pointed out in this thread all point to the New Covenant being opened to all nations at the end of the 70th week, so therefore I appreciate your enthusiasm, we'll just have to agree to disagree... :)

    Besides, I do have first hand knowledge, first hand experience that the NC wasn't only extended to the physical Jews, but that is not something I could quantify for you, so there isn't any reason to lean on that in the our discussion, other then to say I have no doubt brother...

    Are there any other subjects you've been working on?
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    I did explain in the essay "Who Really are the !44,000?" What it means for those who believe they are anointed but are not Jews. But you obviously disagreed!

    I have an essay called "Who Really is the Great Crowd?" But I think you already know what the conclusion I have reached! ;)
    As I explained when I posted the NC Solved essay, it is really a 45 page essay with three chapters called "God's Kingdom - The 144,000". But I'm able to break it up into stand-alone essays, hence the two essays so far.

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    All of it is based on a single erroneous premise, that genetic Jews are the only ones called into the NC with Christ, there are other subjects in scripture.

    Quite strange that the Jewish nation killed Gods son, and tried to snuff out Christianity in the first century, to just have been approved by God (although sinners), when Christ was sacrificed. Oh, but his sacrifice purified only those speaking other languages in other countries right? Those are the gentiles you speak of. So they would have had to check their green cards to determine if Christs blood cleared them of their sin...

    It's to bad God couldn't keep from a million of his true people from being destroyed in 70 CE too, but as you claimed, Christs blood purified the sins of non-believing Jews, so that would have to include those million people who were killed.

    Saying that people of the nations who believe they are anointed into the new covenant, but have deceived themselves are pretty strong, confident words. I didn't bring it up, but I did read it in your essay, but since you do, I will respond. Are you a genetic Jew? Do you know what it means to be anointed? I'm not sure that is a stand you should include in your writings, unless you yourself are a Jew, and have been anointed into Christs covenant to rule as a king.
     
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    Utuna

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    CORNELIUS kôr-n¢lys [Gk.Kornelios (Latin)]. A Roman centurion converted by Peter after both had seen divine visions (Acts 10:1-11:18), the first Gentile known to become a Christian.

    The name is Roman and belonged to distinguished families in the imperial city, such as the Scipios and Sulla. Thus he was probably an Italian of Roman blood. Julian the Apostate reckons him as one of the few persons of distinction who became a Christian. He was evidently a man of importance in Caesarea and well known to the Jews (Acts 10:22). He was a centurion in the Italian COHORT , at Caesarea, the residence of the Roman procurator and headquarters of the Roman garrison in Palestine. (See ARMY, ROMAN .)

    He is described as devout and God-fearing, the latter term often indicating a non-Jew who nonetheless embraced the monotheism of the Jews, read the Scriptures, and practiced more or less the Jewish rites. He was well reported of by the Jews, and his religion showed itself in prayer at the regular hours, and in alms to the people (of Israel). Moreover, he seems to have made his house a sort of church, for his relatives and friends were in sympathy with him, and among the soldiers who closely attended him were some devout ones (Acts 10:24,27).

    The story of his conversion and admission into the Christian Church is told in some detail in Acts 10. Nothing further is known of Cornelius, though one tradition asserts that he founded the church in Caesarea, and another legend that he became the bishop of Scamandros.

    The exact importance of the incident depends upon the position of Cornelius before it occurred. Certainly he was not a proselyte of the sanctuary, circumcised, under the law, a member of the Jewish communion. This is abundantly evident from Acts 10:28,34,45; 11:3,18; 15:7,14. But was he not an inferior form of proselyte, later called "proselytes of the gate"? This question has been much debated and is still under discussion. Ramsay (SPT, p. 43) says that the expression "God-fearing" is always used in Acts with reference to this kind of proselyte. Such were bound to observe certain regulations of purity, probably those, this author thinks, mentioned in Acts 15:29, and which stand in close relation to the principles laid down in Lev 17 for the conduct of strangers dwelling among Israel. Renan, on the other hand, says that Cornelius was not a proselyte at all, but simply a devout Gentile who adopted some of the Jewish ideas and religious customs which did not involve a special profession.

    The importance of the whole transaction to the development of the Church seems to depend on the circumstance that Cornelius was probably not a proselyte at all. Thus we regard Cornelius as literally the firstfruits of the Gentiles. The step here taken by Peter was therefore one of tremendous importance to the whole development of the Church. The significance of the incident consists exactly in this, that under divine direction the first Gentile, not at all belonging to the old theocracy, becomes a Spirit-filled Christian, entering through the front door of the Christian Church without first going through the narrow gate of Judaism. The incident settled forever the great fundamental question as to the relations of Jew and Gentile in the Church. The difficulties in the way of the complete triumph of Peter's view of the equality of Jews and Gentiles in the kingdom of Christ were enormous. It would have been indeed little short of miraculous if the multitude of Christian Pharisees had not raised the question again and again. Did they not dog Paul's steps after the Council? Certainly Ramsay is wrong in saying that the case of Cornelius was passed over or condoned as exceptional, for it was used as precedent by both Peter and James (Acts 15:7,14).

    As for Peter's subsequent conduct at Antioch, no one who knows Peter need be surprised at it. The very accusation that Paul hurled at him was that for the moment he was carried into inconsistency with his principles (hypókrisis). Of course, this incident of Cornelius was only the first step in a long development; but the principle was forever settled. The rest in due time and proper order was sure to follow. By this tremendous innovation it was settled that Christianity was to be freed from the swaddling bands of Judaism and that the Christian Church was not to be an appendix to the synagogue. The noble character of Cornelius was just fitted to abate, as far as possible, the prejudices of the Jewish Christians against what must have seemed to them a dangerous, if not awful, innovation.

    (from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised edition,
    Copyright © 1979 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Agreed, obviously what one should understand...
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Hi...

    Londoner, from what I gather you are stating that ONLY a Christian Israelite can be part of the 144,000. Anybody who does not have Israelite blood, or rather dna coding originating from the original tribes, cannot be a part of the 144,000.

    This feels like a slanted view towards entitlement.

    What are your thoughts on Romans 3 which clearly states that the Israelites were NOT in a better position, and that there is NO distinction anymore between the Israelite or the Greek?

    You make an interesting argument because only God would know who carried the specific gene. Take Joshuastone for example. He considers himself an anointed one of God. Based on your argument of dna Joshuastone would have to have this gene somewhere in his historical gene pool. So his great grandpa a hundred times removed was an Israelite in order for this to be true. Am I understanding this correctly according to how you are presenting your idea?

    Joshua I mean no disrespect using you as an example, I hope you don't take offense. Merely trying to understand more clearly Londoners argument.

    I have much, much more but don't want this to get bogged down.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

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    No offense at all, I completely understand what you meant. When I first read his articles I didn't bring it up, because obviously scriptural evidence is our guide, but he did include in his writings, that anyone not genetically Jewish were deceiving themselves, and I just thought that was one statement he could have left out, unless he didn't think he made his point clear enough otherwise.

    Besides, the Jewish question was an assumption in Germany, and greatly debated as to what makes someone Jewish. I invite anyone to watch the movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(2001_film), and it will highlight why this idea of genetics is so ridiculous.

    What if I had a Jewish great, great, great grand father two thousands years ago? Who knows, but it's irrelevant anyway. Christs brothers are taken from all nations.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    CORNELIUS

    Corne'lius (Κορνήλιοϛ, Lat. Cornelius). The centurion of this name, whose history occurs in Acts 10, most probably belonged to the Cornelii, a noble and distinguished family at Rome. He is reckoned by Julian the Apostate as one of the few persons of distinction who embraced Christianity. His station in society will appear upon considering that the Roman soldiers were divided into legions, each legion into ten cohorts, each cohort into three bands, and each band into two centuries or hundreds; and that Cornelius was a commander of one of these centuries (ἐκατοντάρχηϛ) belonging to the Italic band, so called from its consisting chiefly of Italian soldiers, formed out of one of the six cohorts granted to the procurators of Judaea, five of which cohorts were stationed at Cesarea, the usual residence of the procurators (Jahn, Biblische Archaologie, 2:215, Wien, 1824). See Centurion.

    The religious position of Cornelius before his interview with Peter has been the subject of much debate. On the one side it is contended that he was what is called a proselyte of the gate, or a Gentile, who, having renounced idolatry and worshipping the true God, submitted to the seven (supposed) precepts of Noah, frequented the synagogue, and offered sacrifices by the hands of the priests, but. not having received circumcision, was not reckoned among the Jews. In support of this opinion it is pleaded that Cornelius is ϕοβούμενοϛ τόν Θεόν (a man fearing God), ver. 2, the usual appellation, it is alleged, for a proselyte of the gate, as in chap. Acts 13:16,26, and elsewhere; that he prayed at the usual Jewish hours of prayer (Acts 10:30); that he read the Old Testament, because Peter refers him to the prophets (x. 43); and that he gave much alms to the Jewish people (Acts 10:2,22). On the other side it is answered that the phrases ϕοβούμενοι τόν Θεόν, and the similar phrases εὐλαβεῖϛ and εὐσεβεῖϛ, are used respecting any persons imbued with reverence towards God (Acts 10:35; Luke 1:50; 2:25; Col 3:22; Rev 11:18); that he is styled by Peter ἀλλόϕυλοϛ (a man of another race or nation), with whom it was unlawful for a Jew to associate, whereas the law allowed to foreigners a perpetual residence among the Jews, provided they would renounce idolatry and abstain from blood (Lev 17:10,11,13), and even commanded the Jews to love them (Lev 19:33,34); that they mingled with the Jews in the synagogue (Acts 14:1) and in private life (Luke 7:3); that, had Cornelius been a proselyte of the gate, his conversion to Christianity would not have occasioned so much surprise to the Jewish Christians (Acts 10:45), nor would "they that were of the circumcision" have contended with Peter so much on his account (Acts 11:2); that he is expressly classed among the Gentiles by James (Acts 15:14), and by Peter himself, when claiming the honor of having first preached to the Gentiles (Acts 15:7); that the remark of the opposing party at Jerusalem, when convinced, "then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life," would have been inapplicable upon the very principles of those who assert that Cornelius was a proselyte, since they argue from the traditions of modern Jews, the most eminent of whom, Maimonides, admits a sincere proselyte to be in a state of salvation. The other arguments, derived from the observance of the Jewish hours of prayer by Cornelius, and his acquaintance with the Old Testament, are all resolvable into a view of his religious position, which will shortly be stated. The strongest objection against the supposition that Cornelius was a proselyte of the gate arises from the very reasonable doubt whether any such distinction existed in the time of the apostles (see Tomline, Elements of Theology, 1:266 sq.). Dr. Lardner has remarked that the notion of two sorts of proselytes is not to be found in any Christian writer before the fourteenth century (Works, 6:522). See also Jennings's Jewish Antiquities (bk. 1, ch. 3). The arguments on the other side are ably stated by Townsend (Chrolnolog. N. Test. note in loc.). See Proselyte.

    On the whole, the position' of Cornelius with regard to religion appears to have been in that class of persons described by bishop Tomline, consisting of Gentiles who had so far benefited by their contact with the Jewish people as to have become convinced that theirs was the true religion, who consequently worshipped the true God, were acquainted with the Scriptures of the Old Testament, most probably in the Greek translation, and observed several Jewish customs, as, for instance, their hours of prayer, or anything else that did not involve an act of special profession. This class of persons seems referred to in Acts 13:16, where they are plainly distinguished from the Jews, though certainly mingled with them. To the same class is to be referred Candace's treasurer (Acts 8:27, etc.); and in earlier times the midwives of Egypt (Ex 1:17), Rahab (Josh 6:25), Ruth, Araunah the Jebusite (2 Sam 24:18, etc.), the persons mentioned 1 Kings 8:41,42,43, Naaman (2 Kings 5:16,17). See also Josephus, Antiq. 14:7, 2, and his account of Alexander the Great going into the Temple, and offering sacrifice to God according to the direction of the high-priest (ibid. 11:8, 5); of Antiochus the Great (ibid. 12:3, 3, 4), and of Ptolemy Philadelphus (ibid. 12:2, 1, etc.). Under the influence of these facts and arguments, we regard Cornelius as having been selected of God to become the first-fruit of the Gentiles. His character appears suited, as much as possible, to abate the prejudices of the Jewish 'converts against what appeared to them so great an innovation. It is well observed by Theophylact that Cornelius, though neither a Jew nor a Christian, lived the life of a good Christian. He was εὐσεβήϛ, influenced by spontaneous reverence to God. He practically obeyed the restraints of religion, for he feared God, and this latter part of the description is extended to all his family or household (ver. 2). He was liberal in alms to the Jewish people, which showed his respect for them; and he "prayed to God always," at all the hours of prayer observed by the Jewish nation. Such piety, obedience, faith, and charity prepared him for superior attainments and benefits, and secured to him their bestowment (Ps 25:9; 1; 23; Matt 13:12; Luke 8:15; John 7:17). His position in command at Caesarea doubtless brought him into contact with intelligent Jews, from whom he learned the truths respecting the Messiah, and he seems to have been prepared by a personal knowledge of the external facts of Christianity to welcome the message of Peter as of divine authority.

    The remarkable circumstances under which the benefits of the Gospel were conferred upon him are too plainly and forcibly related in Acts 10 to require much comment (see Paley, Evidences, prop. 2, ch. 2; Niemeyer, Charakt. 1:650 sq.; Neander, Planting and Training, p. 69 sq.). While in prayer at the ninth hour of the day, he beheld, in waking vision, an angel of God, who declared that "his prayers and alms had come up for a memorial before God," and directed him to send to Joppa for Peter, who was then abiding "at the house of one Simon, a tanner." Cornelius sent accordingly; and when his messenger had nearly reached that place, Peter was prepared by the symbolical revelations of a noonday ecstasy or trance, to understand that nothing which God had cleansed was to be regarded as common or unclean. — Kitto, s. v. This event took place about September, A.D. 32 (see Meth. Quart. Review, 1850, p. 499-501). "On his arriving at the house of Cornelius, and while lie was explaining to them the vision which he had seen in reference to this mission, the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles present, and thus anticipated the reply to the question, which might still have proved a difficult one for the apostle, whether they were to be baptized as Gentiles into the Christian Church. They were so baptized, and thus Cornelius became the first-fruit of the Gentile world to Christ, publicly recognized as such; Tradition has been busy with his life and acts. According to Jerome (adv. Jovin. 1, p. 301), he built a Christian church at Caesarea; but later tradition makes him bishop of Scamandios (Scamandria?), and ascribes to him the working of a great miracle (Menolog. Graec. 1, 129)."

    There are monographs on the history of Cornelius in German by Linder (Basel, 1830), Krummacher (Brem. 1829, transl. Edinburgh, 1839), in Latin by Basil (Opp. 108), in English by Evans (Script. Biog. 3, 309); also in Latin, on his character by Fecht (Rost. 1701), Feuerlin (Altorf. 1736); on Peter's vision, by Deysing (Marb. 1710), Engestrom (Lund. 1741); on the effusion of the Spirit, by Goetze (Lubec. 1712); on his baptism, by the same (ib. 1713); on his prayers, by Michaelis (in the Bibl. Bremn. v. 679 sq.); on Peter's sermon, in English, by Taylor (London, 1659). See also Krummacher, Life of Cornelius (Edinb. 1839, 12 mo); Jour. Sac. Lit. April, 1864.

    (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database.
    Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006. All rights reserved.)
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Utuna :)

    Thanks for this. I prefer to stick with the information the bible says about Cornelius.

    Londoner
     
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    Utuna

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    You're welcome, my dear brother... You have no idea how much I love and respect you and how much I owe you in many regards....

    I'll catch up with it all later in due time... I promise...

    As for what this discussion is all about, I'll just say that "Yes, as James said, the Bible is like a mirror to us all when we read it but we may at times only see that which we want it to show us..." :)

    [​IMG]
     
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    Londoner

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    Hi Cristo :)

    Yes, I'm saying that all the 144,000 are taken from literal Jews. That is what the bible is saying. If you haven't already done so, please read the essay uploaded in my first post at the start of this thread "Who Really Are the 144,000?", and then read please the essay "The New Covenant - Solved!", from the thread of the same name. It's on page two of this General Discussions forum. That hopefully will prevent me from having to repeat myself. If you have questions after that, I'm more than happy to answer them the best way I can.

    I want to address Joshuastone7, as it appears I have upset him.

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Not at all, I assure you. Please don't take my "matter of fact" responses at times as taking offense in any way.

    As said before, we simply disagree on that specific subject...
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    This is in answer to want you wrote in posts 26 and 30 captured below. My reply is in blue.


    "Saying that people of the nations who believe they are anointed into the new covenant, but have deceived themselves are pretty strong, confident words. I didn't bring it up, but I did read it in your essay, but since you do, I will respond. Are you a genetic Jew? Do you know what it means to be anointed? I'm not sure that is a stand you should include in your writings, unless you yourself are a Jew, and have been anointed into Christs covenant to rule as a king.


    No offense at all, I completely understand what you meant. When I first read his articles I didn't bring it up, because obviously scriptural evidence is our guide, but he did include in his writings, that anyone not genetically Jewish were deceiving themselves, and I just thought that was one statement he could have left out, unless he didn't think he made his point clear enough otherwise".


    You've asked if I'm anointed or a genetic Jew. In our discussions regarding bible doctrine, me being either is not relevant. But a good understanding of the bible is. If I made a statement categorically claiming that I am a genetic Jew and anointed, would you have immediately accepted what I've written in the two essays I've uploaded here so far? Of course not. It's what I've written that counts, not who I am.

    Has it been so long that you've forgotten? Do you remember a few years ago I was trying to get to know you personally via PM (personal message)? I sent you personal stories of those who believed they had been anointed. Do you remember the basis of why I sent you those stories? I sent Utuna the same stories, and I don't believe he has forgotten (I hope not!)

    Having a personal experience doesn't mean that you are right about certain bible doctrine. I've met on the ministry, and you've probably too, Born Again Christians who believe they are anointed and have met Jesus. One said Jesus was sitting on her bed one day! Others have said that they have seen Jesus weeping, with hell-fire beneath his feet and begging them to help him save those souls! Would you conclude after meeting these sincere people that hell-fire must be real because they say they are anointed and experienced those visions? Of course not. You have to examine the bible and draw your conclusions from God's word only.

    I knew that my essays would upset people who disagree with their conclusions. When I wrote regarding the 144k being Jewish, I knew that there are many Christians in the world who are not Jewish but believe that they have been anointed would disagree and some be upset. I don't want to upset people but I can't let that stop me from giving a message I believe is biblically sound. If I believe sincere Christians are being mislead, I want to warn them. Rev 7:4 says:

    Rev 7:4 - And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel

    It says that 144k was sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Every tribe. No tribe is missing. It says "sons of Israel". That means descendants of literal Israelites. If this book was written as part of the Hebrew Scriptures, there would be no issue with this. Israel would mean Israel, Jew would mean Jew, etc. But because of a misunderstanding of the significance of Cornelius, and downright lies and deceptions, the churches/Jehovah Witnesses in their desperation to gain the inheritances promised to Israel only, say the list for the 144k in Rev 7:5-8 must be symbolic because the Tribe of Joseph did not exist. But a good student of the bible would know that bible writers use different names to describe the same places/land/people. God tells us in Eze 37: 16

    “And as for you, O son of man, take for yourself a stick and write upon it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel his partners.’ And take another stick and write upon it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of E′phra·im, and all the house of Israel his partners”.

    So the Tribe of Joseph is "Ephraim", the so-called missing tribe. The list is not symbolic. It is literal. Do I believe the bible, or do I believe a non-Jewish Christian who believes he/she is anointed? The bible is infallible. I have to believe the bible.

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Those of Christs brothers are not chosen for by an experience they have, they are chosen for their abilities before hand.

    I do assure you though, that without Holy Spirit one may not unlock deep secrets of scripture.

    With all do respect, your argument does not stand criticism.

    Just because someone walks around claiming they are rich, but are not, does not give evidence there are no rich in the world.

    I believe everyone here has examined scripture, and with all do respect of course brother, you are the only one to believe the NC only includes physical Jews.

    I assure you I am not one you have upset at all, I know what I do, and I simply disagree with you.

    I would offer a suggestion, and encourage you once again to study the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, for again this is the very reason I have said you are wrong in your assumption. The "many" in Dan 9:27 were the physical Jews, and that covenant ended just to them at the end of that 70th week.

    Once again I ask you, do you consider yourself Jewish? Surely you would have no concerns by answering that, for your answer has nothing to do with why you present your understanding as it is, I simply ask the same of what you asked of me. Do you consider yourself Jewish and anointed into the NC?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    Dear Londoner,

    I'll be honest with you and will tell you that, with all due respect, I won't read your 45-pages essay. I already know enough from what you have already written here what I need to know to have an opinion about the conclusions that you have reached therein.

    I don't have the time any more to spend 4-5 hours on a post making thorough researches through sundry Bible versions, Bible encyclopedias, Greek texts, etc. on each and every subject brought up here on this db, and all the more so when it comes to debunking silly theories. In the same vein, I intend to spend more of the little free time I have studying and sharing material that upbuilds me and makes me forge ahead on spiritual ground instead of constantly being hauled back and dragged down by endless debates due to attemps by others to question what I consider as teaching 101. Until our Lord comes back, there'll always be as many interpretations of the Bible as there will be readers to read it and to a certain extent of course, I don't mind any more people believing in whatever might humour them, be it even Santa Claus or the chemtrails... without me implying that your personal conclusions fit these latter categories... :)

    Yours faithfully, my dear brother,
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Hi Londoner...you said you would let the essay speak for itself. Now how about we let the scriptures speak for themselves.

    (Mt 3:7-9) 7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “YOU offspring of vipers, who has intimated to YOU to flee from the coming wrath? 8 So then produce fruit that befits repentance; 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

    (2Co 5:12-21) 12 We are not again recommending ourselves to YOU, but giving YOU an inducement for boasting in respect to us, that YOU may have [an answer] for those who boast over the outward appearance but not over the heart. 13 For if we were out of our mind, it was for God; if we are sound in mind, it is for YOU. 14 For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died; 15 and he died for all that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised up. 16 Consequently from now on we know no man according to the flesh. Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more. 17 Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence.


    Notice in the following scriptures from Ephesians that a clear distinction is made regarding the people of the nations. They are not Israelites in any sense of the word. They did not have any DNA as you state, otherwise Paul wouldn't have addressed them as he did being alienated from the state of Israel and strangers.
    (Eph 2:11-3:6) 11 Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” YOU were called by that which is called “circumcision” made in the flesh with hands— 12 that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit. 19 Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit. 3 On account of this I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in behalf of YOU, the people of the nations— 2 if, really, YOU have heard about the stewardship of the undeserved kindness of God that was given me with YOU in view, 3 that by way of a revelation the sacred secret was made known to me, just as I wrote previously in brief. 4 In the face of this YOU, when YOU read this, can realize the comprehension I have in the sacred secret of the Christ. 5 In other generations this [secret] was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, 6 namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus through the good news. . .

    (Ro 2:28-29) 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.

    (Ro 3:9-31) 9 What then? Are we[Jews] in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin; 10 just as it is written: “There is not a righteous [man], not even one; 11 there is no one that has any insight, there is no one that seeks for God. 12 All [men] have deflected, all of them together have become worthless; there is no one that does kindness, there is not so much as one.” 13 “Their throat is an opened grave, they have used deceit with their tongues.” “Poison of asps is behind their lips.” 14 “And their mouth is full of cursing and bitter expression.” 15 “Their feet are speedy to shed blood.” 16 “Ruin and misery are in their ways, 17 and they have not known the way of peace.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that all the things the Law says it addresses to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become liable to God for punishment. 20 Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; 22 yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. 25 God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was in order to exhibit his own righteousness, because he was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past while God was exercising forbearance; 26 so as to exhibit his own righteousness in this present season, that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man that has faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is the boasting? It is shut out. Through what law? That of works? No indeed, but through the law of faith. 28 For we reckon that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes, of people of the nations also, 30 if truly God is one, who will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. 31 Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Never may that happen! On the contrary, we establish law.

    (Ga 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.

    (Ro 10:12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him.

    (Ga 3:26-29) . . .YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

    There is many, many more but why bother...If you choose to ignore these scriptures the others won't matter anyway.
     
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    Acalia

    Acalia Guest

    Hi brothers, my name Acalia (the father of Nehemiah, Hachaliah in English). This is my first comment on this forum. I write from Italy, I do not know English very well, in fact this comment I translated with Google Translate. However I can understand the meaning of your words.
    I wanted to use exactly the scriptures that he used Cristo in the previous comment to tell Londoner that the joint heirs with Christ Jesus are not all natural Jews. Cristo he anticipated.
    Greetings to everyone. Acalia
     
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