Hi Jan, The connection between the GB and the MOL is, among other reasons, because of Judas' role in Jesus death, being back then Satan's mole* among Christ's brothers and as a result of the two verses quoted below : "Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?" - 2 Th. 2:3-5 "When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled." - John 17:12 * That's the word for it !
Hi Jan: Utuna hits the nail on the head in sighting this scripture. The key to understanding what it means is to realize exactly what "the temple of God" is. Is it a physical structure like in Solomon's or Zerubbabel's time? Of course not, we all know that. The temple is not the Watchtower buildings in New York or around the World, is it? Of course not. The Temple of God is those that are the Bride of Christ, his wife. They are the building blocks of the Temple. So, for a person to proclaim from the "temple of God" that they are God, which word means mighty one and perhaps in the case of capital G, almighty one, they are standing or sitting in among the anointed of Jehovah and as far as I know you have to be one of Jehovah''s Witnesses or have been one to qualify for that. Logic would dictate that that person would be a Jehovah's Witness if singular and Jehovah's Witnesses if symbolic and plural. Make sense? frank
Utuna and Frank, You both are missing the bigger picture. The apostacy comes first. Which apostacy? Apostacy of Jehovah's witnesses or something bigger, I mean apostacy in general in different christian denominations? For me the picture is bigger than the tiny WT org. And the WT org is a relatively new christian denomination. Who did spread the gospel before WT org. Was it all in vain? Surely not, the other christian denominations performed and still spread at least some parts of the gospel and Bibles. How ever will WT org alone manage to preach the gospel to the entire inhabited earth before God's kingdom arrives? I have heard that the number of professing christians has grown tremendously in China. And because of that the knowledge about Jesus spreads rapidly in China, but not by the WT org. There are very few Jehovah's witnesses. Obviously Jesus is using others than Jehovah's witnesses to proclaim his name, his resurrection, his return and repentance. And as we all know that Jehovah's witnesses are not faultless or perfect. So what makes you believe WT org is the only thing Jesus uses for witnessing about him? Also Jesus told that the weeds and wheat would grow together until the end and then only would they be separated. So you should not condemn any professing christian as weeds before the conclusion of the system of things.
Hi Jan, I don't think that the GB is the MOL. I was just giving the reason why some people make the connection between the GB and the MOL.
Jan, I might add to what Utuna said; the MOL isn't claiming to be God, the scripture says "a god", big difference. 2Th 2 also says that he sets himself up above every other "so-called god". This indicates that the MOL is not proclaiming himself to be the God, but "a god". As well there are others in his group who claim to be gods as well for the scripture describes them as "so-called" gods, or "objects of worship". This is indicative of those who would claim to rule with Christ, but neither Christ nor the God. In fact the scripture tells us he sits in the temple of "God". This aptly describes the GB members, and regardless of what we think the temple in our day is, all things will be uncovered in Jehovah's due time. 2Th 2:3,4 "Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god."
What if JW's are wrong about this scripture in Mth 24:14? What if it isn't the whole group that preaches the kingdom in all the earth but a singular moment in time deep in the time of the end that is broadcast over TV? Rev 14:6-8 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.â€
I invite you to compare these two scriptures, however I will say it wasn't until I noticed that these two scriptures occur at the same time did I notice their comparison, because although they do appear to be the same event, the proof is in fact in the chronology. Mth 24:14 "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Rev 14:6-8 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.â€
Hi Jan: You are correct. Other organizations have preached the Gospel and when the "harvest" begins the reapers (angels) will go around "the world" (as that is where the seeds were planted) and gather up all the weeds (who were planted by the opposer) and burn them in the fire. Then they will gather up all those who have had a seed planted in their hearts (again by the angels through Christ) and they will be gathered up and placed into Jehovah's storehouse. The Watchtower is not the storehouse, they were for the gathering of the anointed bride of Christ. But the apostacy can only happen in a place that was at one time Jehovah's organization. You can't have an apostacy happen in religions that no longer have God's approval or may never have had it. If you don't think that an apostacy is happening right now in the Watchtower you are most mistaken. What do they have to do to convince you that there is an apostacy ongoing? It was the same way in the first Century. The apostacy wasn't in Judaism or any of the other false religions, no it was in the true Christian Congregation. Yes, JW's are but a tiny organization, but so was the nation of Israel compared to the rest of "the world" at that time. Make sense? frank
Jesus said: I will be with you till the end, to those who would preach about what Jesus taught. So the other missionaries outside Jehovah's witnesses would have Jesus' support in some way, some of them at least. And that should have been happening all the centuries. So what makes WT org special, when they too have a lot of false teachings. And right from the beginning there have been a lot of errors in the teaching. l don't understand that WT org fell to apostacy, to me it looks like WT org has always been wrong as all the other christian denominations. And where were Jesus' disciples before the WT org all the centuries? Where they not within the other existing christian denominations? What about the congregations in the first and second century? They were not perfect either. About one Jesus said in the Revelation that it had only few approved names. So that's how Jesus' congregations have been since the begining. Nothing extraordinary that there exist different christian denominations. It is very similar as it was among the Jews before Jesus' first coming. There among God's people where different Jewish religions denominations, everyone in some way working for God's purpose. If Jesus had not come and told them the truth, they would have been innocent in their ignorance. That's what Jesus' said. But because he told them the truth, and they rejected it, it became a sin on them. So who can tell all the christian denominations they are wrong and invite to a true christian congregation? There is nowhere to invite. Am I not right? Should I or Robert King tell to go to Jehovah's witnesses to find the truth? We can't say that. We would disappoint them. In addition we are disfellowshipped and unwanted. How can we invite to Jehovah's witnesses in such conditions? Interested people would think we are crazy. So in essence all christian denominations today are guilty and in error just like when Jesus came first time.
I agree Jan, that was very well stated. However, Jehovah works through the 'foolish things', the things which are not, to shame the things which are. So there is nuance here. Christendom is a nasty mess intertwined with the nation-state system. In a grand sense, other denominations are working WITH Christ by spreading knowledge of his redeeming sacrifice, they embrace him. That is the ultimate goal of our creator. But I have to agree with Frank and Joshua as well. There is a unique situation present juxtaposing JWs, Christendom, the public ministry work of JWs, and the notion of 'free speech' in the nation-state system. It's coming to a head. The nations will know that it is Jehovah (YWHW) doing these things, and someday, they will recognize him as God Almighty. 1 Corinthians 15:24-30 But first, those 'calling on the name of Jehovah' will be PUBLICLY shamed, yet ultimately vindicated in the basic worship of Jehovah against the derivatives of the Catholic-pagan system.
Of course, it's obvious that Mat. 24:14 and Mat. 28:19-20 aren't talking about the same preaching work. The preaching work in Mat. 24:14 refers to a preaching work that will take place just before the end, as it is written.
It's very simple, they knew who God was. "So God said to Moses: “I Will Become What I Choose to Become.†And he added: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’â€" (Ex 3:14) There were other religions on the planet at that time that worshiped triads, and on the flip side there were monotheistic beliefs separate from true worship, why were none of these Gods people? Because they did not have accurate knowledge of God. Are you going to tell me today that a religion who professes Christ but yet thinks he is a triad will gain Jehovah's favor? "Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Mth 7:22,23) Jehovah's Witnesses are not unlike the original Jewish nation, although they have sinned many times and deserve punishment they know the true nature of their God, and that my friends is the first step. It does not matter what you do in the work of the lord if you do not have accurate knowledge of him, and to the other side, if you have accurate knowledge of him but fail to do the work in the lord you too will will be thrown out along with those without accurate knowledge. This understanding is one of the most basic and fundamental in scripture. John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
I'm not sure that is true. Recall when Apollos was teaching the knowledge of God, but did not know about Christ. Aquila and Priscilla filled him in @ Acts 18. "When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately." Yet despite not knowing the full truth of Jesus work, before Aquila and Priscilla spoke with him, it was said of Apollos: "and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord" Here we see that 'accurate' knowledge (of doctrine) isn't the measure of 'accurately speaking and teaching the things of the Lord'. Of course, as with everything, there is a LOT of gray area here. (though I do agree with your point LOL)
For even further verification of who and what we are talking about: There are two components to the witness which occurs before / during the end. 1) the initial work of making the name of Jehovah known [because the Almighty has been rejected by Christendom] and spreading the message of the kingdom (Matthew 24) 2) the post-refinement (attack of the Assyrian) spirit empowered witness which removes the stigma from those who 'call on the name of Jehovah' (Joel, Revelation)
Hi Joshua: I know that you are convinced that Jehovah's Witnesses have an accurate knowledge about God and Christ, and to a certain extent, you are correct. They know a lot about the nature of God and Christ but I assure you, you will eventually be amazed and humbled how much they do not know. I feel the same way about myself. Although I think I have a good understanding of God and Christ, I also realize that we have just scratched the surface of who Jehovah and Jesus really are. In time, we will have a complete understanding, but until then, we should remain humble in our abilities to know God at this point in time. Remember, if you already don't know this that the "great crowd" has not been formed by those who have become Jehovah's Witnesses. The "great crowd" comes out of the "great tribulation" and is during the "last days" when the harvest is occurring. We know that the angels are the reapers during the harvest, so the "great crowd" is harvested by the angels, not JW's or anyone else. This great crowd will come from everywhere. They will come from the faithful and "born again" among JW's and many more will come from "the world" and those with faith and those with love. These, along with us will truly come to know Jehovah in the Kingdom of God during the 1,000 year Kingdom. For some, everlasting life will come this side of Armageddon, but for the vast majority of mankind and the great crowd will come to life during the 1,000 years so John 17:3 applies to a minority this side of Armageddon and the great majority after the 1,000 years has started. If you read accounts of the annointed members of the Bride of Christ, many of them knew that they were called before they came to be Jehovah's Witnesses and then they had a strong pull on them from "the Truth". So your being chosen by God can happen while you are still in a religion that does not have completely "truthful" teachings. Jehovah is reading hearts and personality as it relates to the Kingdom, not what our brains know or knew. The disciples and Apostles in Jesus time where chosen from false Judaism, not from a religion that really knew God. Frank
Where do you get this idea? What is it that they don't know about the nature of God? Are you saying that you have information that most don't? Don't take offense, I'm just trying to understand what it is you are saying. I happen to believe Jehovah's Witnesses have as much information about the nature of God as he wants mankind to have, and that in fact their understanding is exactly as scripture describes, in as far as it pertains to Jesus being created and Jehovah never having a beginning. Now as to their individual roles, those ideas can very. Now are you saying JW's understanding of Christ and Jehovah's nature is in error? So Jehovah would choose to anoint someone who worships a false God? I'm sorry, no offense again but I do not see and have never seen any precedence for that in scripture.
With Apollos it is best to understand he already had accurate knowledge. The lack of refining knowledge does not remove your current accuracy, let me explain. Apollos already worshiped the true God Jehovah, therefore he had accurate knowledge of the nature of God. He only needed to be brought up to speed on current affairs in the truth that pertained to Christ. This is in stark contrast to someone who worships a triad and preaching forgiveness of sins. All religions teach forgiveness of sins, not all know Jehovah. This idea that all worship is exceptable to Jehovah is ridiculous and is not supported in scripture. Jehovah is an exacting God, and history shows us that without accurate knowledge of Jehovah's nature and what he expects you lose his favor. I don't understand why some want to make our Father out to be an all excepting God all of a sudden here in the time of the end. Have you not read the history of Israel? If you do not have accurate knowledge of the nature of Jehovah, there is no favor from him. This is the very foundation of all scripture. (And SingleCell, we have allot more in common then we don't. )
Hi Joshua: No, it is not surprising to me that you think that Jehovah's Witnesses have a fantastic grasp of who God and Christ are. That is always the feeling of the people in the religion that was once a true faith but no longer is. The same was true for the Jews at Jesus time. They thought they were the cat's meow but Jesus showed them exactly how much they did not know about the nature of God and himself. 8 12 Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world.+ Whoever follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light+ of life.†13 So the Pharisees said to him: “You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true.†14 In answer Jesus said to them: “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going.+ But you do not know where I came from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh;*+ I do not judge any man at all. 16 And yet even if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me.+ 17 Also, in your own Law it is written: ‘The witness of two men is true.’+ 18 I am one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.â€(In scripture and with his own voice)+ 19 Then they said to him: “Where is your Father?†Jesus answered: “You know neither me nor my Father.+ If you did know me, you would know my Father also.â€+ 20 He spoke these words in the treasury+ as he was teaching in the temple. But no one seized him, for his hour had not yet come.+ 21 So he said to them again: “I am going away, and you will look for me, and yet you will die in your sin.+ Where I am going, you cannot come.â€+ 22 The Jews then began to say: “He will not kill himself, will he? Because he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’†23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above.+ You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.†25 So they began to say to him: “Who are you?†Jesus replied to them: “Why am I even speaking to you at all? 26 I have many things to speak concerning you and to pass judgment on. As a matter of fact, the One who sent me is true, and the very things I heard from him I am speaking in the world.â€+ 27 They did not grasp that he was talking to them about the Father. 28 Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man,+ then you will know that I am he+ and that I do nothing of my own initiative;+ but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. 29 And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.â€+ 30 As he was saying these things, many put faith in him. 31 Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth,+ and the truth will set you free.â€+ 33 They replied to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring and never have been slaves to anyone. How is it you say, ‘You will become free’?†34 Jesus answered them: “Most truly I say to you, every doer of sin is a slave of sin.+ 35 Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s offspring. But you are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among you. 38 I speak the things I have seen while with my Father,+ but you do the things you have heard from your father.†39 In answer they said to him: “Our father is Abraham.†Jesus said to them: “If you were Abraham’s children,+ you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40 But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.+ Abraham did not do this. 41 You are doing the works of your father.†( This is exactly what the Watchtower will do when they find out who are the true members of the remnant of the Bride of Christ among them, they will kill, (disfellowship them)) They said to him: “We were not born from immorality;* we have one Father, God.†42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me,+ for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.+ 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father.+ That one was a murderer when he began,*+ and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.+ 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God.+ This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.â€+ 48 In answer the Jews said to him: “Are we not right in saying, ‘You are a Sa•mar′i•tan+ and have a demon’?â€+ 49 Jesus answered: “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 But I am not seeking glory for myself;+ there is One who is seeking and judging. 51 Most truly I say to you, if anyone observes my word, he will never see death at all.â€+ 52 The Jews said to him: “Now we do know that you have a demon. Abraham died, also the prophets, but you say, ‘If anyone observes my word, he will never taste death at all.’ 53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? The prophets also died. Who do you claim to be?†54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me,+ the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him,+ but I know him.+ And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.â€+ 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?†58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.†(a man)+ 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple. John 8 Yes, the Jews of Jesus day were the seed of Abraham and they should have known who God was and who the Christ was, but they did not as Jesus clearly shows here. The former true faith and it's members always feel this way. When Jesus comes, you will actually know who he is and who he Father is. That's the way it always happens Joshua. You don't even realize that there was more than one loaf and cup blessed and eaten and drunk by Jesus and his disciples. I say this Joshua with a lot of respect for you and for all or at least most of Jehovah's Witnesses. I think you and the rest have a ganuine love for God and Christ but have just been misled by the imposters that are running the Watchtower since the Apostacy gain full speed in the 90's. Please don''t take offense. When Jesus comes (out of the Watchtower) in the form of his Bride (they are one flesh, so they are in essence Jesus) they will teach all of Jehovah's Witnesses about who God and Christ truly are. I know you won't listen to me, but you will listen to the voice of Jesus/Michael when you hear it, I know you will. I do not take offense at what people say to me or about me (at least not permanently). It means nothing, the only two I am trying to please are Jehovah God and his Son Jesus/Michael or whatever his new name is. frank
That is a great point. On some level I suppose to defend them because by placing Jesus the Image as God Almighty they are still worshiping Jehovah. But they're wrong about who Jesus is. I see them as Moab, Ammon or Edom, with knowledge, but not accurate frameworks. So I'm reluctant to make any bold statements about who is and who isn't worshiping Jehovah. Yes, there is a scale of knowledge, and there are those who are blind. But Jehovah's forgiveness and patience is greater than we can possibly understand. The heart and the kidneys are more important than the mind. So can they have favor with Jehovah? I think so. Are they fulfilling the Christian New Covenant by mixing paganism and nationalism with the Truth? Nope, utter betrayal. This is where the JWs enter IMO. We're ruled over by men as Pharisees. They are ruled over by Egypt's priest class, figuratively.