Worshiping Jesus-The Mighty God King

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Gabriel, Mar 14, 2015.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Joshua I agree that Thomas' statement could go either way with a change in punctuation.

    But ultimately agree with Frank - Jesus is on the throne of Jehovah acting as God, Thomas was coming to that realization!

    Every knee will bow to Jesus FOR THE Glory of Jehovah (the trinity rejects this, because 'Almighty God' is actually the Father-Son-Holy Spirit as one being, Jehovah IS Jesus)

    So much nuance here; but don't fear (perhaps that is the wrong word lol) Jesus being a mighty God IMO, he certainly is. There is something new in the universe and it is Jesus on Jehovah's throne acting as God!

    I don't think we should worship Jesus in the same way as Jehovah, more like we do 'obeisance' to him;

    The true depth of worship belongs to Jehovah alone, hence why Jesus turns the kingdom back over to Jehovah after all enemies are as a footstool
     
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    Utuna

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    Said otherwise, that's not the binity either.... :p
     
  3. Hi Utuna:

    That's the comedian in you acting out. Binity is very funny, but that would of course be if Jesus and Jehovah were equal and they are not. Jehovah is clearly still Jesus Father and superior in every way, and Jesus even a God acknowledges that. In the Patriarchal system, the Son was never superior to the Father unless the Father died and I don't think Jehovah is planning on dying. I added Binity to my spell check dictionary.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Why would I have a problem with Jesus being Mighty God? That's exactly what the scripture says about him. What I caution is to be sure of the chronology. It must be determined what Thomas meant when he said "my God". Are you saying Thomas was giving Jesus some sort of worship? That is the question at hand.

    I happen to have taken on a major project yesterday, I decided for some reason to revisit the heaven high tree and see if it connects to anything in scripture once again, and as you may know that subject is a good way to lead yourself into madness... So I would spend more time studying this subject we are talking about, but I kind of have my hands full at the moment, I was really just sticking my nose in for a second anyway.

    But I would first ask what Thomas meant when he said "my God" if he was directing that statement to Jesus, then I would ask what the difference would be before Jesus is enthroned and then after. He is not enthroned yet, so what does he gain at that point, and how is he addressed differently if he has all titles already?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The question is what should Jesus be called before he is enthroned. He certainly wasn't when he confronted Thomas, so he would not have been on Jehovah's throne yet. So was Jesus Thomas's God at that moment? Can you prove that somehow he was? Can it be proven Thomas wasn't speaking to Jehovah? Could Thomas have been speaking to Jesus and Jehovah? Lord/Christ and then God/Jehovah? Read Ish 9:6 again, Jesus isn't Mighty God till after he starts ruling.

    The point appears to be as I said before there isn't enough information in this account to make those decisions on who Thomas was talking too, which means you cannot say Thomas called Jesus God.

    Just because Jesus is described as a mighty God is not proof enough that Thomas called him his God. I'm sorry guys but it sure seems like obeisance, and I don't remember anyone in the new testament worshiping Jesus, no, in fact Jesus denounced this practice.

    The only way to determine what Thomas meant is to look at whether Jesus could have been called his God. Ish 9:6 says no.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me point it out clearer here.

    If anyone thinks Jesus is Mighty God now then why isn't he the prince of peace yet, or everlasting Father? Did he come to bring peace, is there peace now, has he given anyone everlasting life, but your going to tell me he's already Might God? How could he be one of these names already and yet not the others?

    Ish 9:6 "For a child has been born to us. A son has been given to us. And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

    The point is he does not become these things till after he is enthroned.
     
  7. Hi Joshua:

    How does Isaiah 9:6 say no? I.m sure it says yes.

    I don't see how Thomas could be talking to anyone but Jesus. But have it your way by brother if it makes you feel more content. What is wrong with worshiping Jesus if indeed he is a God and he is a Mighty God through scripture. When did he become Love. According to scripture he became love when he gave his life as a ransom. That's why he was elevated to the highest position under his Father of course. Quite fighting it Joshua.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It's a very big question Frank, and I would say the most important issue we have discussed on this forum. Who we will worship is a matter of life and death.

    According to Isiah Jesus isn't mighty God until after he sits on Jehovah's throne, until after he begins ruling. So then you clearly have to ask what did Jesus say then about worship?

    How did Jesus say to pray when this very subject was brought up to him? He told us to pray to the father, did he not? Did he ever say to pray to him?

    When someone called him something that seems simple to us "good" what did he say? Is there one single scripture in the whole Bible that says it's okay to pray to Jesus, to talk to him directly in our prayers, or that he should have any kind of worship at all????

    You are talking about the most important subject in scripture, in that of who we worship, and surely you have some biblical truth that this is okay?

    What did Jesus say?

    Luk 4:7 "If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.â€￾ In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’â€￾

    John 4:23 "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth."

    One day Jesus will become more, but he has not taken the throne yet and Jesus was very clear who we should not only worship but give sacred service. Are you going to tell me it's okay to give Jesus sacred service? Jesus clearly said that belongs only to Jehovah.
    What everyone should be very careful of is the fact that Jesus will gain those titles as in Isiah when he takes the throne, but he has not yet and Jesus made it very clear on many occasions whom should be worshiped.

    This is what someone should use to determine who Thomas was talking too. Jesus said "your God" was Jehovah at Luke 4:7, so who did Thomas think was his God???
     
  9. Hi Joshua:

    I'm going to take your tack for a minute. Are you 100% sure that Jesus is not ruling in some fashion on his Father's throne right now. Can you say that with 100% certainty? What Jesus said about his relationship to the Father before his sacrifice has no bearing whatsoever in compare to his relationship with his Father after his sacrifice. Read Hebrews 1 again.

    frank

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, (An heir does not have the throne yet, he simply is in line for it.) and through whom he made the systems of things. (Jesus created everything but himself.) He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, (When Jehovah was alone, he recreated himself in an exact copy, and that was Jesus. Jesus is the exact copy of his Father.) and he sustains all things by the word of his power. (Jesus is the word and power behind creation.) And after he had made a purification for our sins, (His sacrifice.) he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Sat at Jehovah's right hand, not on the throne as ruler.) So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. (He is a new creation after living as a human and dying faithful.)

    5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father� And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son� (Only Jehovah and Jesus existed when this was uttered.) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.†(Jesus became something more when he lived as a human after an angel and was yet faithful, then recreated as a new creation in heaven.)

    7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.†But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.†(Just because someone is anointed does not make them king. David was anointed years before he became king.) And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.

    But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet� Are they not all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?" (In fact Jesus is to sit next to the throne until his enemies are as a foot stool which means until he rides to destroy them. So he is not enthroned until that point.)

    You see Jesus is simply at his Fathers right hand and has not in fact taken the throne, and I know this 100% because of the entire book of the Bible, and every single prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled. None of the time periods of the end have begun from the 2300 days to the 1335, 1290, 1260, none of these days have begun let alone any of the events within. In no way has Jesus begun to rule, for the dead in Christ would be raised, and the remaining on earth would be changed. Babylon would be destroyed and the message to all the earth to obey God., etc, etc...

    In no way can you find scripture to tell you it's okay to approach Jesus in prayer or to give him sacred service of any kind, in fact Jesus said on many ocasions to worship Jehovah and him alone. What it will mean when Jesus becomes the Mighty God we do not know, there isn't even anything written as to prayer from that point on anyway. Besides Jesus has not become the eternal Father, nor prince of Peace, look around you. So therefore he's not yet the Mighty God, but is waiting for that moment to come, along with his enemies being placed at his feet, first and foremost Satan himself.
     
  11. Hi Joshua:

    You have this idea, and I think it is an idea that is yours and not the Bible's that Jesus (or whatever his new name is at this time) must be ruling on God's throne or he can't be a Mighty God or Eternal Father or Prince of Peace. I say that's pure bunk. He became God when he became Love and he became Love when he gave both his lives (angelic and human) as a ransom for Adam and the rest of mankind. When you become Love, you become God, not when you start ruling on God's throne. Jesus became love when he became the propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, all of ours.

    You can think what you want Joshua, but I for one am convinced that Jesus is God already. This should not bother you in any way and Thomas was clearly talking to Jesus, not Jehovah. By the way a prince absolutely does not have to be reigning in order to be a prince, wouldn't you agree?

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I would like you to read Isiah 9:6 again;

    "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

    We read Jesus was born, and that he was Jehovah's son. Then at some point he begins to rule, and it's at that point that he is called Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor Eternal Father and Prince of Peace.

    Now you say he's already ruling huh? You must think that he was ruling when he appeared to Thomas right? After all you think Thomas was calling Jesus his God, but wait, wasn't Jesus still on earth and had not been raised to heaven yet? Wasn't Jesus resurrected and then stayed on the earth for 40 days before entering heaven? Yet you claim Thomas must have thought Jesus was all ready enthroned as god and deserves worship even though Jesus never said this, even though Jesus explicitly said to worship Jehovah God and him alone, even to Satan's face, and Jesus wasn't even in heaven yet! As well after Jesus told us to pray in the model prayer to Jehovah, and on many occasions he declined any worship to himself.

    Where is one scripture that says it's okay to speak to Jesus in prayer, not just through him. Name one precedence where it's okay to give Jesus our sacred service.

    You seem to misunderstand what the word god means.

    Jhn 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

    Do you understand that Jesus was god before the earth was even created? That Jesus was god the moment he was created. Don't you know that Satan is the god of this world and there are many gods in the Bible... Do you have any idea how dangerous it is to your ever lasting life to get this subject wrong. Jesus will declare to many "get away from me I never knew you".

    You are mistaken, he became god the moment he was created. Such was anything not of this universe. There are many gods...

    Did he become the object we should worship after some point that has past? How many instances did you just mention? At which point did he become this object of worship to you, when he gave up his heavenly life, when he become a man, when he was sacrificed, when he was resurrected, when he was raised, what EXACT moment are you saying, you mentioned a time frame that spans many years. I say Sir, you don't know what your talking about. When is the exact moment Jesus is made an object of sacred service, or worshiped?

    Show the scriptures that say he has become an object of reverence by mankind, and yet I will show you many where Jesus said to worship Jehovah and not him... That he was less then his Father.

    That is complete dribble! What scripture says he became love at his sacrifice??? Jesus loved mankind before this when he even gave up his life in heaven, he loved mankind when he created them, etc etc...

    You have just made a personal interpretation based on your own beliefs that have nothing to do with scripture.

    When did Satan become god??? He's god too you know, but did he do anything for mankind? Did he become god by love? Your notion is not based in what the book says, but your own understanding.

    Jesus told you to only worship the Father, yet you feel things are different now and it's okay to worship Jesus, you may find yourself with Christs back turned to you, and in fact it's not surprising because I can see the lack of his spirit in all of your understandings you have presented here from multiple loafs (the four gospels describing four different cups and loafs), multiple 1000 year time frames (that start and stop thousands of years ago), random gas station fires in some stupid Texas towns becoming some biblical prophecy fulfillment and sign of the end, don't you see a pattern here?
     
  13. Hi Joshua:

    I have made my point. I don't need to write anymore on the subject. I am quite content with you believing what you believe.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    pol·y·the·ism


    "(pŏl′ē-thē-ĭz′əm, pŏl′ē-thē′ĭz-əm) n. The worship of or belief in more than one god."
     
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    Utuna

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  16. Hi Joshua: I am a happy bitheist

    frank
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Frank,

    You reason like a Muslim. The way you reason and draw conclusions from what you read here and there is typical of their "religious" mindset.
     
  18. Hi Utuna: You reason like a French JW
    .

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    In all honesty Frank I know Utuna more like a family member, and we have a relationship that is even closer then family in some cases and I just want you to know that we love you. We aren't here to put you down or to make fun of you, by any means. In our imperfect state we want to try and find a way to open your mind to ideas that you may not have thought about, or perhaps have left behind, and I know he feels the same way... (But I know, the French can be very, well you know, French sometimes...lol! Just playing brother Utuna... :p)

    But seriously Frank, this subject is a very serious one, and we just want to encourage you to consider the implications of getting it wrong. This is the only reason we are discussing it in the first place.

    Mth 6:9-13 “You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified."
     
  20. thanks Joshua!

    frank
     

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