For the next few days I'll be traveling, and I doubt I'll be by a computer, so I'll have to make due over cell phone... Difficult... That the day of Jehovah is here in verse 2... They are judged... The mark is the mark of Solomon. It's talking about those who claim to worship the true God but receive the mark of Solomon just as he collected 666 talents of gold in defiance of Jehovah, and worshipped false gods, he fell away. We should buy gold from our Lord in Rev 3:18, not buy from Babylon in Rev 13. The buying and selling are spiritual, our Lord made that clear in Rev 3:18. The merchants are priests of Babylon the Great, the woman, the obvious spiritual organisation of Satan. The trumpets refine believers by fire, and the bowls fall on the evil slave. The whole theme is the virgin parable, and every other parable with the faithful and the evil slave. It is the mark of Solomon...666
BreakTheWalls, do you know what our Lord meant when he said "no one knows the day or hour"? He's talking about Rosh Hashanah, that was the day no one knew the day or hour because what they were looking for was the new moon. That's what the disciples would have understood. You see, it took "two witnesses" to spot the new moon, and it could have fallen on either of two days, but they were never sure which. So our Lord was saying no one knew the day that holiday would be fulfilled, and it just so happens to be the first day of the end. Now as for every day of the time line after that, that's a different story, it's all spelled out in Daniel, but our Lord is right, we don't know the first day of the end, the fulfillment of Rosh Hashanah...
YES, there is a warning about thinking the day of Jehovah is here… before it actually is. But the lie, which is in question, is not so much that thinking that that day is here but it is what is put out there in order to try to convince that that day is here. Example, its like people on up coming 21st, people using the eclipse to say that the day of Jehovah is here. The lie is that the eclipse is a sign and proof that that day is here…and obviously thinking that that day is here when it is not, would by default make the claim that the day is here a lie. And as a WTS example, they make many claims that are not true, therefore lies, but essentially we can say the LIE that is used in order to make such claims, is 1914. But regardless, in my asking what is the outcome for these people that believe the lie you said 'they are judged', and while that is true what I meant to ask is what is the result of that judgment. Do you agree that the answer is that they will perish (not be saved)? I asked what is the outcome for the people that receive the mark, etc… Do you agree that they are judged? Do you agree that the judgment for receiving the mark is death? In regards to Thessalonians 2:3 I asked what apostasy is to come…and you said: It is the mark of Solomon...666 But what do you say in regards to Daniel 11:32… what apostasy does the KOTN lead?
John.... John is back ?! THE John !? "My" John...?? THE real Mac John ?!? Yay ! That's a blessed week ! I'm on holidays and leaving for two weeks and I'm gonna get this stupid laptop of mine back in working order for the fortnight to come faster than light speed.... !!!!
A pretty good grasp ? I agree but that's the asset but also the liability of his reasoning as a whole. That's a double-edged sword.
In addition to post #43… Paul when addressing what has to take place before the ‘day of Jehovah’ would arrive, brings our attention to something the KOTN is said to do, and that is lead people into apostasy. Paul says this in the context of talking about the MOL. John says that the false prophet (wild beast from earth) misleads (synonyms: deceives, delude, lie, fool) people into worshipping/taking the mark of the wild beast (from sea). In the context of speaking about the MOL, Paul says that lying signs, deception (synonyms: delude, mislead, fool, trick)…is what is used to get people to believe ‘the lie’. John says that the wild beast (from sea) get his authority from Satan (the dragon), Paul says the MOL presence is due to Satan.
David was "crowned" as king before actually becoming one. He was anointed at some point in time but came to power only after Saul's death. One may receive authority but may have to wait a while before exercising it.
As you already know, discussions about prophecies bore me stiff, which is why I'm reading this thread in a cursory mode, but you may find the following verse interesting : "But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season." - Daniel 7:12
This scripture shows that even though they give their power to the 8th king, they still exist as nations.
[ (from post #43) my asking what is the outcome for these people that believe the lie you said 'they are judged', and while that is true what I meant to ask is what is the result of that judgment. Do you agree that the answer is that they will perish (not be saved)??? I asked what is the outcome for the people that receive the mark, etc… Do you agree that they are judged??? Do you agree that the judgment for receiving the mark is death??? In regards to Thessalonians 2:3 I asked what apostasy is to come…and you said: It is the mark of Solomon...666 What do you say in regards to Daniel 11:32… what apostasy does the KOTN lead???]
Agreed, this occurs at the end of the era, just before the Lords day, of which these ones are done away with when our Lord appears in the clouds. I differ with Robert on this matter. Since I don't believe the mark is some physical apparition, but rather a spiritual one, I believe the entire trumpet/bowl saga is the virgins parable. The trumpets refine the faithful, while the bowls fall on those with the mark of Solomon, and there is evidence that they continue to refuse to repent, and even irredeemable. In reality it appears the players in the trumpets and bowls are the bride class, it appears to be talking about only those virgins waiting for the bride groom, not all mankind, nor all faithful, or non-believers. So if you apply the concept of Heb 10:6, and the anointed are not forgiven after tasting the spirit and falling away, then in fact those one time anointed, who fall away like Solomon are condemned by the mark. Rev 13 is speaking of one time anointed like Solomon who "buy gold" not from our Lord (Rev 3:18), but rather from the harlot. So it appears I'm agreeing with Robert that the mark condemns these ones, but what I am saying is only those of the bride class can receive the mark, for they are the only ones that would not be redeemable, and besides the entire epic of Revelation is the virgin parable, and the buying and selling are spiritual.
Quote - Agreed, this occurs at the end of the era, just before the Lords day, of which these ones are done away with when our Lord appears in the clouds. – end quote OK for clarity purposes, you say “these ones” are done away with when Jesus appears. That answer is you agreeing that those that believe the ‘LIE’ will perish (not be saved). When I asked you what is the ‘lie’ you said: “That the day of Jehovah is here in verse 2...” So you are saying that when Jesus appears, that will be the true ‘day of Jehovah’ and he (Jesus) is going to do away with (kill) all those that believed that the ‘day of Jehovah’ was here before it actually was??? And if that is the case, who/what/how is it that is causing "these ones" to believe (the lie) that that day is falsely prematurely here ??? Quote - I don't believe the mark is some physical apparition, but rather a spiritual one…In reality it appears the players in the trumpets and bowls are the bride class, it appears to be talking about only those virgins waiting for the bride groom, not all mankind, nor all faithful, or non-believers. …I am saying is only those of the bride class can receive the mark, for they are the only ones that would not be redeemable, and besides the entire epic of Revelation is the virgin parable, and the buying and selling are spiritual. – end quote I am not sure what you are saying. Do you mean to tell me that the following scriptures only apply in a spiritual sense??? And only to the virgins and not to all mankind??? Rev 13: 15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast.16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name. Rev 14: 9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Rev 19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.
Your right, I'm in error in my current understanding of the lie. Thank you for pointing this out, this is the reason we are here together, to further the understanding of our Lords Word! The lie is the apostasy which is the KOTN presenting himself as god. Those who perish are done away with for being led astray by the KOTN believing that it is their savior, not our Lord. It's for their worship of the wild beast they are destroyed, not for believing the day of Jehovah is here. The KOTN exalts itself above every god, and presents lying signs that lead some into apostasy. I need to consider all of these things and readjust my understanding of the KOTN, MOL, Apostasy, etc... Thank you brother for not giving up...
Correct, the mark of Solomon being spiritual. Those killed are those refined by fire in the trumpets, not physically killed... Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'" Rev 8:7 "The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up." This would be the apostasy, those unwise virgins who worship the wild beast... The buying and selling is spiritual, so the Great Harlot is part of the KOTN that leads those in the bowls/unprepared virgins into apostasy. It is the lion/Babylon that is it's mouthpiece.
Just FYI, when I am made to discover a paradox in understanding I like to brainstorm, so forgive my randomness, I need to get it out... The lie is the fire from heaven in Rev 13 that refines true believers. those who believe the lie are those who receive the mark and are judged in the bowls. The lie is the hurling of denunciations, the moment the KOTN, Wild Beast opens it's mouth against the holy covenant to magnify itself above every god. So with that said, instead of a man, the "son of destruction" must represent a type, the other half of the virgins, those who are misled into apostasy, just like Judas, but yet still represent the KOTN. Man or Beast? Then what is the lie????? Going back to read some of your earlier posts...
How difficult is it to change a mans mind? I'm reading back through our discussion, and I see where I was mistaken, and you knew it, but yet you started asking questions in a way that I eventually found my error myself. How many times I have wished others could find their error in understanding, but what a thing for someone to recognize those missteps and open their eyes... It is a gift from Jehovah, and I thank you again so much for not giving up, and please forgive my presumptuousness in past posts with the MOL, Apostasy, etc... I just had to say that as I'm reconsidering all of these things...
1Tim 4:1,2 "However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron."