1914 Problematic? Not at all!

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Feb 29, 2024.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    This certainly is a worthy cause.

    I've noticed you have interest in prophecy. Anything in particular?

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Yes I am extremely interested in prophecy about the last days and the time when Jesus made the claim when he would raise the temple. I wrote and compiled information into three books
    • The Sealing of the 144,000...
    • Will the Real Scripture Please Stand Up
    • The Hidden Treasure of John 1:1
    If you're interested in any of these I can upload them in pdf format. Here is the Introduction Chapter of the Sealing of the 144,000 called "Prophecy"


    Prophecy

    "Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search.  They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow.  It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer." (1 Peter 1:10-12)

    The Prophets that announced the prophecy did not always know the exact timing. For instance, the Prophet Ezekiel announced the coming of the destruction of Jerusalem over and over again stating, “An end is coming; the end will come; it will rouse itself against you. Look! It is coming.” (Ezekiel 7:6) Yet, he did not state this would occur in 607 BCE. It’s not likely he knew and if he did, it was not for them to know. In this case ‘them’ is referring to the unfaithful Jews who were doing detestable things in Jehovah’s Holy Temple. However, the Bible did point to the time of 607 BCE. The 390 days and the 40 days that were revealed to Ezekiel by laying on his side indicated significance. If we apply the pattern of a day for a year then both 390 years and the 40 years pointed to the destruction on 607 BCE.

    Jesus Christ, the great prophet, stated in part of his answer to the conclusion of this system of things or the end of the age, “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36) Think about his reply for a moment, here, Jesus Christ makes the claim of not knowing that day or hour. The firstborn of all creation did not know the day or hour of his second presence and he claimed the angels did not know either. Recall this scripture? “It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.” (1Peter 1:12) What you may find interesting is that date and hour was already embedded in the Bible through past prophecy in the Book of Daniel. The Temple would be destroyed in October of 607 BCE. The “seven times” was a calculation of the Jewish year of 360 days. Simple math 7 x 360 = 2520 days. Apply a day for a year. The seven times is actually a reference to the allotted time limit of the Gentiles. It is a ‘timed event’.

    A good way to calculate this, is that there seems to be a year missing. There was 3 months left on 606 BCE when the counting of the time limit began and 9 months to count of the year when the time limit of the Gentile Times came to its conclusion. That’s 1 year. Now, take a calculator and put in 606 then hit the +/- sign so it shows -606 then add 2520 to it. What year do you come up with? 1914!

    Any Jewish Scholar from the time of Daniel could've figured this out by simple history. So why was this prophecy hidden from faithful worshippers of Jehovah? Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:9)

    The Fulfillment of Prophecies are 'timed events'. They have a Beginning and an End to them which covers a specific time period. Knowing such dates of a prophecy once revealed to those who are being ministered to, does not necessarily beget salvation. It doesn't give a person divine protection or extraordinary insight but it may make a person more accountable to Jehovah.” One would need to walk by faith...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings, brother,

    Thank you for the response; I always enjoy discussing the Word with fellow believers.

    Do me a favor if you could. Can you show me a direct connection between the Davidic throne and the tree in Daniel 4? The idea you present is that of the WT, of course. The idea states the tree represents the throne of David, which was cut down when Babylon overthrew Jerusalem until our Lord reclaimed it in 1914. Is there a single connection that can be made between that tree and the Davidic throne? Keep in mind that "So that the living may know" is no connection to the throne of David. If the tree represented any other entity at the time of the end, that statement would still hold true.

    I would also ask you to look at other locations where trees represent nations in the Bible. Have you ever noticed the almost word-for-word description used in the Daniel 4 tree to represent Assyria in the book of Ezekiel?

    Daniel 4;

    "The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree amid the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. Its leaves were beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in it was food for all. The beasts of the field found shade under it, and the birds of the heavens lived in its branches, and all flesh was fed from it." Dan 4:10-12

    Now look at Ezekiel 31;

    "Whom are you like in your greatness?
    Behold, Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon,
    with beautiful branches and forest shade,
    and of towering height,
    it's top among the clouds.
    The waters nourished it;
    the deep made it grow tall,
    making its rivers flow
    around the place of its planting,
    sending forth its streams
    to all the trees of the field.
    So it towered high
    above all the trees of the field;
    its boughs grew large
    and its branches long
    from abundant water in its shoots.
    All the birds of the heavens
    made their nests in its boughs;
    under its branches all the beasts of the field
    gave birth to their young,
    and under its shadow
    lived all great nations.
    It was beautiful in its greatness,
    in the length of its branches;
    for its roots went down
    to abundant waters.
    The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it,
    nor the fir trees equal its boughs;
    neither were the plane trees
    like its branches;
    no tree in the garden of God
    was its equal in beauty.
    I made it beautiful
    in the mass of its branches,
    and all the trees of Eden envied it,
    that were in the garden of God." Eze 31:1-9

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Interesting. I re-call going through a similar process of gaining understanding. Little by little, like a light bulb turned on and slowly becoming brighter. Yes, I can help with connecting the dots to help achieve a clearer picture of that prophecy.

    The Fulfillment of Prophecies are 'timed events'. They have a Beginning and an End to them which covers a specific time period. Knowing such dates of a prophecy once revealed to those who are being ministered to, does not necessarily beget salvation. It doesn't give a person divine protection or extraordinary insight but it may make a person more accountable to Jehovah.” One would need to walk by faith...

    Prophecies often unfold with two fulfilments. The first revealing of a prophecy is often referred to has a minor or physical fulfillment. The second revealing is referred to has a major or spiritual fulfillment on a much grander scale. Prophecies often are intertwined with other prophecies undergoing fulfillment and can overlap one another. However, each prophecy has a beginning and an end. They cover a specific period of time.

    Yes, you are correct. You are one of the few that made the connection. It's true that the tree can represent nations but more specifically it represents a Kingdom. Remember, the King was also distressed about knowing about the immense figure he saw. Daniel told the King that he was the Head of that Body because his Kingdom would be followed by other Kingdoms which in the second fulfillment come into our Day that we are now living in.

    The First Fulfillment of this Prophecy has a minor or physical fulfillment. The tree represented "From King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar to all the peoples, nations, and language groups dwelling in all the earth: May your peace abound!" (Daniel 4:1) So it represented a much broader sense. His Kingdom. This timing came about in (days) Simple math 7 x 360 = 2520 days which all came true and were fulfilled. The scriptures tell us that King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar had gained insight and understanding to this prophecy.
    • At the end of that time I, Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, looked up to the heavens, and my understanding returned to me; and I praised the Most High, and to the One living forever I gave praise and glory, because his rulership is an everlasting rulership and his kingdom is for generation after generation. (Daniel 1:34)
    • So what did King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar Kingdom represent? -all the peoples, nations, and language groups dwelling in all the earth- Gentile Rulership - the Beginning of the Gentile times!

    Now King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar did not know about the Second Fulfilment but Daniel did as far as to it's timing. The Book of Daniel was the Angel (Gabriel) witness to Daniel about God's Kingdom, what it was, when it would start to reign. Just read the Chapter of Daniel 12. Gabriel even informs Daniel whom the Ruler of God's Kingdom would be that this would cause a time of distress and during that time, cause a Resurrection. (many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up)

    However, after the timing of God's Kingdom was revealed, and who the Ruler would be, Gabriel tells Daniel “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:4)

    Yes and it all has to do with 'timing' to inform righteous ones in the time of end. "So that the living may know" in connection to the throne of David. God's Kingdom. (Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.) Daniel 12:4

    So the Second Fulfillment is the second revealing which has a major or spiritual fulfillment on a much grander scale. You can apply a year for a day and come up with the timing of the End of the Gentile times!
    • In 1876 the Bible student Charles Taze Russell contributed the article “Gentile Times: When Do They End?” to the Bible Examiner, published in Brooklyn, New York, which said on page 27 of its October issue, “The seven times will end in A.D. 1914.” The Gentile Times is the period referred to in another Bible translation as “the appointed times of the nations.” (Luke 21:24)

    Notice it's not the End of the World as others falsely claimed by rather the end of the Gentile times. That end would cause a time of distress!
    • “During that time Michael will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people.* And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book." (Daniel 12:1)
    • Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. (Daniel 12:9-10)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The first verse of Daniel 4 is Nebuchadnezzar beginning a letter to all peoples. How do you apply an idea that his opening of the letter means the tree prophecy within applies to all the earth? I could send a letter addressing it to the whole world, but that doesn't mean that every aspect of the letter applies to everyone. He could have simple wanted all the earth to know what happened.

    You still haven't answered my question. Where is the direct connection of the tree in Daniel 4 to the Davidic throne? Everything you posted is an assumption. I could apply the Gentile times after 70 CE as well. Using your approach, I could apply the Gentile times to the time after Jesus's death. These are all assumptions. I could also apply the 2520 days between several events as well.

    My question is straightforward and basic. Can you give me a direct physical connection of the prophecy in Daniel 4 to the Davidic throne? The WT says when Babylon conquered Jerusalem, there was no longer a king sitting on that throne, and that's what the tree being cut down represents. Before getting into any timings, please give me a direct scriptural connection between the two. After all, I directly connected that tree in Daniel 4 and the description of Assyria in Ezekiel.

    Thanks...

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    @BroRando ,

    ANYtime I see words along this vein nowadays, flags go up for me:

    "Yes, I can help with connecting the dots to help achieve a clearer picture of that prophecy..."

    It is God Who is the Revealer of secrets. (Daniel 2:47) So, points off for that. Now if you'd said something more like, "All I can do is show you the scriptures. It's God's to reveal..." well, I wouldn't feel like ignoring anything past that point in your response. /shrug

    But that's how it works, I guess. Someone comes along and offers to connect the dots.

    And I get it. After all, I was you, too. A lifetime ago.

    I've been on the JW message board scene since even before the scary, end-of-the-world 2000 went down. 1997-1998-ish. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that my posts are still extant on Google Newsgroups to this day-- and I absolutely cringe at that period in my walk as a believer. How much I thought I knew and understood back then... and then was brought to realizing that I knew nothing over the course of my lifetime.

    But my heart was earnest toward our Father and Creator, Jehovah, and He is the Examiner of hearts, after all. And remains so in the years since, in spite of my excommunication from the Watchtower organization a very, very long time ago in a galaxy far, far away-- having been declared apostate for asking questions I had on teachings that I was evidently expected to accept, without question (or at least oral questions) following my baptism.

    That's not to suggest that I've always walked faithfully. I'm a mess on the best of days. God saw fit to provide me with a wife who evidently has a high tolerance for the likes of me, and we've been together for over 25 years now.

    In spite of the man of sin at work within me, though, I've offered forums myself for others years ago, for both in and out of the Watchtower organization.

    Needless to say (but I will anyhow): I've encountered many personalities online over my life here on the internet.

    Your ban over on Robert King's forum doesn't bode well, either. [Unless he's lifted it at the time of my posting this response.]

    Thus flags go up for me when someone new comes along suggesting or asserting to be a "revealer of secrets" of any sort. Offering to connect those dots and put the pieces together, and so on.

    I'll close this out with two passages of scripture:

    God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages... —Hebrews 1:1-2 Berean Literal Bible

    If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. — 1 Corinthians 13:2 Berean Standard Bible

    Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
    Timothy
    A believer.

    Postscript: I guess I should also note that I'm of the Covenant theology [and preterist] persuasion and so I doubt I'd have much to contribute in discussions on prophecies that I believe have been fulfilled. Nor is my time my own these days, as @Joshuastone7 knows as we ourselves try to get through a separate discussion here on the forum.
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Isaiah 10:5
    “Aha! the As·syrʹi·an, The rod to express my anger And the staff in their hand for my denunciation!

    Isaiah 11:1
    A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesʹse, And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit.

    Zechariah 6:12
    And say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.

    Jeremiah 23:5
    “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land.

    Jeremiah 23:6
    In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

    Jeremiah 33:15
    In those days and at that time I will cause to sprout for David a righteous sprout, and he will execute justice and righteousness in the land.

    Jeremiah 33:16
    In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will reside in security. And this is what she will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.’”

    WTS Quote: "Jeremiah 23:5, 6 is a Messianic prophecy describing the future king sprouting from David’s line to “execute justice and righteousness in the land.” Since he rules as God’s representative (even as David, and others, sat “upon Jehovah’s throne” as God’s anointed king; 1 Chron. 29:23), the prophecy says, “This is his name with which he will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” There is no basis for claiming, as some have, that this means that Jesus, the Messiah, and Jehovah are the same, forming one God. This can be seen from the fact that the similar Messianic prophecy at Jeremiah 33:14-16 applies the identical expression to Jerusalem, saying: “And this is what she will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” In both cases the expression shows that God’s name, Jehovah, placed both upon his promised king and upon his chosen capital, is a guarantee of their righteousness. Moreover, the justice and righteousness emanating from, or expressed by, these sources are the product of full devotion to Jehovah and his divine will, bringing Jehovah’s blessing and direction." End of WTS Quote
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings, Bro.

    Thank you for responding.

    I'm not sure why you quoted this scripture. This has no direct connection to the tree in Daniel 4. So Jehovah uses Assyria as a hammer. (shrug)

    This scripture prophecies Jesus's coming. Again, nothing connects the Davidic throne to the tree in Daniel 4.

    Again, this is a prophecy about Jesus building the temple of Jehovah—nothing about the tree in Daniel 4.

    Jesus will rule. We all know that. Where's the connection to the tree?

    Again, nothing here either...

    Still the same... Nothing represents the tree.

    Same here...

    Everything you just posted, you are assuming, applies to the tree and 1914. Where is the proof? Where is the direct scriptural evidence that the tree in Daniel 4 represents the Davidic throne?

    We all know Jesus was the promised Messiah and rules God's kingdom. None of this has anything to do with my question to you.

    Please, if you will, give me a direct scriptural connection between the tree in Daniel 4 and the Davidic throne.

    Thanks, Bro...

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    The tree in Daniel as I stated before is about King Nebuchadnezzar Kingdom “From King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar to all the peoples, nations, and language groups dwelling in all the earth: May your peace abound! (Daniel 4:1)

    Nor does the tree represent the Davidic throne. (King David was not a Gentile King) Second, you asked
    This prophecy has two fulfillments. The first was in literal days and the second is that each day is a year about the one called twig and righteous sprout of Jesse. First 2520 days, second is 2520 years.

    WTS quote "Daniel interpreted a vision in which God ordered that an immense tree be cut down, just as God had ordered that the kingdom in Jerusalem be cut down and destroyed. But the tree’s root was to be left in the ground so that after “seven times” it would grow again." End of WTS quote https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20120801/When-Did-Jesus-Become-King/

    With that information you should be able to surmise the timing of God's Kingdom and when the Builder of the temple raises it. Finding about 1914 is pretty assessable. When you know when the Gentile times began and when they end. Even Jesus points to the timing of when he raises up the temple of which is in our day.

    Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings, brother...

    I'm not sure why you take the opening of his letter to mean that what applies within is a prophecy to all of his kingdom. It's simply an opening of a letter. You don't see that as going beyond what is written? Taken at face value, is it not merely an opening of a letter to all people? Unless you have direct biblical confirmation, your idea is only an assumption. My understanding is the natural and most basic understanding. It's simply a letter sent to all people. It doesn't say that everything within is a prophecy to them.

    Besides, if you were correct, the tree would represent his whole kingdom, not just Jerusalem. But it doesn't say either. You are applying more than is there.

    That's interesting because the WT does, indeed, teach that the tree represented the Davidic throne. Jesus supposedly received the throne back in 1914 that was cut down in 607 BCE, even though all the evidence says Jerusalem went down in 587 BCE.

    Can you point me to this scripture?

    The WT claims that Daniel interpreting the tree dream is just like Jehovah calling to cut down Jerusalem. Okay, prove it... Where does the Bible say Jerusalem is to be cut down, just like Daniel's interpretation of the tree dream in Daniel 4? I know the Bible talks about Jerusalem being destroyed, everywhere within. I'm asking for a scripture that talks about it being cut down like a tree, just as discussed in Daniel 4.

    After all, if we are going to believe that the prophecy in Daniel 4 represents Jerusalem, shouldn't we be able to prove it? What has blind faith got you throughout your life? Hurt many times, I would guess.

    Maybe I should give you a little back story about myself now, brother. I've been one of Jehovah's Witnesses since 1990. Prophecy was my first love from the very beginning. I believed as you and studied the Revelation book in great detail. I studied with Circut and District overseers, some of the wisest men in the Society, because of my interest in the deeper things. They were the only ones that were capable of studying with me.

    Now, I spent years trying to figure out how that tree in Daniel represented Jerusalem. I believed it because that's what I was taught to believe. And, of course, we weren't allowed to question it.

    Then, one day, I asked an older sister in the early 2000s (who claimed an anointing) this very question. "Where is the connection between the Davidic throne/Jerusalem and the tree in Daniel 4?" She told me, "There isn't one, but don't worry about it."

    I keep asking you this question so that, hopefully, you will come to the correct understanding on your own. Everything you've quoted me is what I had been taught forty years ago. It's all assumptions... None of it is based on actual biblical connections.

    The answer, brother, is that there is no connection between the tree in Daniel 4 and the Davidic throne or Jerusalem itself. But that doesn't mean JW's aren't God's people. It simply means they've made mistakes. When Christ came, he found the elders of his day had also made many mistakes and needed correction.

    Knowing this truth should help you to mature in the faith, brother. You seem like someone like Saul, who deserved to see the truth because of his great faith. Maybe that's why Jehovah brought you here. As Brother Kline said, He is the Revealer of secrets.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    So now we have a starting point of 607 BCE or 587 BCE which would point to the desolation of Jerusalem. The marker of captivity of when Babylon first kidnapped kids and teenagers of noble birth. Daniel was among those young people that Babylon was vetting for "Wiseman" for the King. The "allotted time of 70 years for this captivity" was also revealed to Daniel by Jehovah. So let's compare both dates. When Jehovah's Witnesses point to 607 BCE and the Secular date points to 587 BCE the secular date for doing this is not just showing a 20 year discrepancy but give the false idea the Gentile times never began at all. The naïve ones have taken the deception of 587 CE and ran with it because of cylinder that was found. So let's see which date is accurate.

    First, 587 CE plus 70 years would mean the Jews would have returned to Jerusalem in 517 BCE. Yet the Secular date claims the Captivity of the Jews began in 587 BCE and ended in 538 BCE? An incorrect time period of 49 years is wrong.

    Therefore Jehovah's Witness in fact are correct that it was factually correct by Biblical Chronology revealed by the eyewitness Daniel is true. 607 BCE to 537 BCE is most certain.

    Here's the scriptural proof of the Divine timing.
    • in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70years.
    Other supporting scriptures that support 70 years of desolation:

    Zechariah 7:5
    “Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, ‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years, did you really fast for me?

    2 Chronicles 36:21
    to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill 70 years.

    Jeremiah 29:10
    “For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

    Jeremiah 25:12
    “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.

    Zechariah 1:12
    So the angel of Jehovah said: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?”


    So the period of Babylon captivity was 70 years along with the Desolation of Jerusalem.

    WTS quote "Why Trust the Bible?

    At present, the majority of secular historians believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 B.C.E. However, the Bible writers Jeremiah and Daniel clearly state that the Jews were in exile for 70 years, not 50 years. (Jeremiah 25:1, 2, 11; 29:10; Daniel 9:2) Those statements strongly indicate that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. As the above evidence shows, that conclusion has some secular support." End of WTS quote

    Read (Daniel 1:1-7)
    In the third year of the kingship of King Je·hoiʹa·kima of Judah, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. along with some of the utensils of the house* of the true God, and he brought them to the land of Shiʹnar*d to the house* of his god. He placed the utensils in the treasury of his god. including those of royal and noble descent. without any defect, of good appearance, endowed with wisdom, knowledge, and discernment, and capable of serving in the king’s palace. He was to teach them the writing and the language of the Chal·deʹans.* for three years, and at the end of that time they were to enter the king’s service.* of Judah: Daniel,*h Han·a·niʹah,* Mishʹa·el,* and Az·a·riʹah.*i* to them; he gave to Daniel the name Bel·te·shazʹzar, to Han·a·niʹah the name Shaʹdrach, to Mishʹa·el the name Meʹshach, and to Az·a·riʹah the name A·bedʹne·go.k

    It was 607 BCE when (Pure Worship) was interrupted which represents the Beginning of the Gentile times and the 2520 years point to end of the Gentile times in 1914 to give righteous ones a heads up "So that the living may know"

    Is Jehovah revealing his time table to you? Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. (Daniel 12:10)

    Jehovah had the scriptures written to give those of righteous hearts a heads up of what is coming during the time of the end. (Daniel 12:9) Jehovah is the Revealer of Secrets, it is he, whom he chooses to reveal his decisions too.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    607 vs 587 is irrelevant to me. Unless you can prove the tree represents Jerusalem, there is no reason to go any further. You keep wanting to show how you can connect the WT ideology across Scripture without realizing they are all assumptions. Without proving that the tree represents Jerusalem, everything after is irrelevant.

    I understand what it's like to believe in the WT's ideology unquestioningly. And your faith is firm, that is apparent. But, unless you are willing to consider the possibility that the WT could be wrong, you will continue to be blinded in these areas of prophecy.

    Ultimately, it's up to Jehovah if you recognize what I've been trying to help you see.

    I will assume that you can not connect the tree in Daniel 4 to Jerusalem because you have yet to do so.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Thank you for your response. I do appreciate the time you allowed me to share some prophetic scripture with you. I am a lover of Prophecy also.

    You assume correctly that I can't connect the tree in Daniel 4 to Jerusalem because Jerusalem has gone the same way as Sodom and Gomorrah and was replaced.
    • “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it." (Matthew 23:37)
    • Look! Your house is abandoned to you. (Matthew 23:38) Some ancient manuscripts add the word “desolate.”
    When the Rule of the Gentiles ended in 1914 the band was removed so that the stump of Jesse can sprout. It was time for God's Kingdom to arrive with the man whose name is Sprout.
    • Isaiah 11:1 A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesse, And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit.
    • Zechariah 6:12 And say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.
    • Jeremiah 23:5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land.
    The last days which are a time of distress don't last forever they will soon come to an end. The 'timing' of them line up with the 'timing' of the last days of Noah. (Genesis 6:3)
    • 1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but chosen, precious to God,
    • 1 Peter 2:5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    • 1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that the spirit of God dwells in you?
    Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19) The timeline began on Pentecost 33 CE.
    • Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past, Just as a watch during the night.
    • 2 Peter 3:8
      However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.
    • Hosea 6:2 He will revive us after two days. On the third day he will raise us up, And we will live before him.
    I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

    The Fulfillment of Prophecies are 'timed events'. It's all about 'timing' to inform righteous ones in the time of end. "So that the living may know" in connection to the throne of David. God's Kingdom. (Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.) Daniel 12:4

    All the Best
    BroRando

    PS... don't give up.. you have a reason to keep on living...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You misunderstand...

    The WT connects the Jerusalem of 607 BCE to the tree in Daniel 4. Show me a direct connection of Jerusalem in that day being represented by the tree in Daniel. I am not talking about Jerusalem today or any other time. I am talking about the Jerusalem that the WT is talking about.

    You claim that Jerusalem in 607 BCE is the Jerusalem that the tree in Daniel 4 represents. Prove it... Give me a direct biblical connection showing the tree in Daniel 4 represented the Jerusalem that Babylon destroyed.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    She is gone and never coming back.

    Correct Jerusalem was Destroyed in 607 BCE. Destroyed has a finality to it. She is gone forever because the Righteous Sprout of David replaced her with a Heavenly New Jerusalem. Out of the reach of Satan and wicked mankind's influence.
    • For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. (Psalm 37:9)
    • Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9)
    • But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. (Psalm 37:10)
    • But Jehovah will laugh at him, For He knows that his day will come. (Psalm 37:12)
    • But the wicked will perish; The enemies of Jehovah will vanish like glorious pastures They will vanish like smoke. (Psalm 37:20)
    • The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it. (Psalm 37:29)
    • Hope in Jehovah and follow his way, And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked are done away with, you will see it. (Psalm 37:34)
    Show me a scripture that the tree in Daniel 4 represents God's Kingdom. You can't because the tree in Daniel 4 represented Gentile Rule from 607 BCE to 1914 CE the 2520 years. The Gentile times have ended and have an 8th King ruling them - Gog of Magog - (aka) United Nations

    Revelation 16:13
    And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

    Revelation 16:14
    They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings, brother. Thank you for your response.

    Okay, so do you think you're moving the goalpost here? However, this is not what the WT teaches.

    And I quote,

    "What does the tree of Daniel chapter 4 represent? In the Bible, trees sometimes represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) In the greater fulfillment of Daniel chapter 4, the immense tree symbolizes God’s rulership.

    What does the tree’s being chopped down mean? Just as the chopping down of the tree represented an interruption in Nebuchadnezzar’s kingship, it also represented an interruption in God’s rulership on earth. This happened when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, where the kings of Israel sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as representatives of God himself.—1 Chronicles 29:23." JW.org

    Regardless, if you want to say the tree represents the Gentile times, we'll go there.

    So the tree is cut down, meaning the Gentile times begin, and the tree doesn't represent Jerusalem. That's a lot of mental gymnastics there.

    Then prove it... In Daniel 4, it does not say that the tree represented God's rule, the Gentile time's rule, or anything like it. It simply says it represented Nebbukednezar so that those living may know who rules. Who were those living? Nebbi sent the letter to all those living in his kingdom. They were the ones living. Applying anything more to Daniel 4 is made up and fake. There are no connections to anything else.

    Besides that, there is no connection between the Gentile rule and the 2520 days of Daniel 4.

    The Gentile rule is 42 months, not 2520 days. And I don't care that 42/1260 divides into 2520. 40 goes into 2520, and how many instances in Scripture does 40 appear? 7 goes into 2520, 120, 30, and so on. All of these numbers appear over and over in Scripture and can be divided equally into 2520.

    "But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months." Rev 11:2

    The WT arbitrarily applies the Gentile times to Daniel 4 without a single biblical connection. The WT arbitrarily applies that tree to God's rule without a single biblical connection. Daniel 4 says, "So that the living may know." Who were the living? They are those whom the king addressed in the letter's opening, all of his kingdom. Going beyond this is only a personal interpretation wholly without foundation.

    So, again, please show me a direct biblical connection that shows that the tree in Daniel 4 represents anything other than King Nebbekudnezar himself.

    Thanks...

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Being a student of Prophecy and intently studying the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1914 is only the beginning of the end. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.  All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:7-8)

    In 1914 the world as we know it, has entered into its death throes. God’s Kingdom would slowly begin crushing all kingdoms of the earth. (Daniel 2:44) Those inhabiting the earth would enter into an ‘allotted amount of time of distress’. “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.” (Daniel 12:1)

    What is causing this ‘time of distress’? “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled  but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven.” (Rev 12:7-8) “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Rev 12:12) Here’s an important teaching from Jesus Christ, he stated, “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:37)

    Did you catch that? So the Presence of the Son of man will Be. Jesus Christ has been ruling from Heaven since 1914 and he compared his presence like the days of Noah! Few people understand this, but the Days of Noah lasted 120 years. (Genesis 6:3) Jesus continues, “For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,  and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:38-39) Folks, the presence of the Son of man is now 110 years from 1914 and counting. Yet, the World is taking no note. The Manifestation of Christ’s Presence… is upon us.

    The Last Days must reach their full time allotted, which is 120 years. 1914 + 120 = 2034. Since the Great Tribulation is Spiritual, many will fall away from the faith. But it’s during this time period that the one’s separated to the right hand of Christ, will come out of the Great Tribulation as Survivors. In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” (Rev 7:13)

    So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Rev 7:14) “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42) “You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.” (Luke 12:40)

    Armageddon is an act of undeserved kindness of removing the wicked by means of the second death. Soon, those outside our interior rooms will be dying the second death in the same manner as Adam and Eve.

    To request a free home Bible Study click here.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    He says, "Just as in the days of Noah people were eating and drinking." He doesn't say, "Just as in the days of Noah, the end times will be 120 years." Don't you see that's a contrived connection? You are making connections that aren't there. You are guessing.

    Regardless, 1914 is a fabrication.

    I look forward to your response on the other thread, Bro.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Okay, no problem. When it comes to Prophecy, Jehovah already knows his own timing. However, he does allow that timing to become known to His People so they can escape the coming destruction. Even though just a few gain the discernment as to its timing, the others would not know until the prophecy were to come about and be fulfilled.

    Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. (Daniel 12:9)

    For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

    As the end of the Gentile times were coming to their conclusion, what was the result?
    • Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. (Daniel 12:10)
    The 120 years span consisted of the 40 year pattern three times. It was a pattern, a blueprint to be copied and reused. Brother Russell used this pattern when he gained discernment from Jehovah of the Gentile times coming to their end in 1914. He also realized this timing would be a time of distress which he called a time of trouble. (Daniel 12:1)

    Brother Russell wrote: "The Earth Abideth Forever' Christ will not return to Earth as a Man - Present Year Believed to Mark Great Change of Dispensation, but World May not discern Immediate Difference." The Bible Students Monthly, January, 1914.

    Since Christ will not return to Earth as a Man, Brother Russell wrote: "Our Lord, in describing His Second Presence, clearly indicated that it would be unnoticed by the world until the cataclysm of trouble should come. Thus He likened the earlier days of His presence to that period before the Flood, when the world, unconscious of the impending catastrophe, continued to build, eat and drink as usual, and knew not. So, says the Master, it will be in the end of this Age. Eating, drinking, building, planting and marrying will proceed as usual; and the world will not know that they are in the PRESENCE of the Son of Man." He ascertained that this time period could be 1914 + 120 years = 2034

    Notice he didn't write Second Coming, but rather 'Second Presence'? Brother Russell was speaking of Christ's PAROUSIA--PRESENCE. He continues, "The Bible nowhere tells that Jesus took the human nature to keep it forever, and to return with it to Heaven, where it would be completely out of order and out of place. The Bible teaches, on the contrary, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50); and that Jesus was made flesh merely 'that He, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man' (Heb 2:9) and that after doing this work He would "ascend up where He was before." (John 6:62) The great Day of Trouble, noted throughout the Scriptures as the Time of Trouble such as never was since there was a nation, will come upon them suddenly."

    Brother Russell also mentions that this time of trouble could last a certain amount of time as in the time of Noah. Then he mentions, "Then, later on, will come the Epiphania; that is to say, the revelation, or manifestation, of the present One. This will not be a manifestation in the flesh, but in a great Time of Trouble, symbolically represented as fire, as when we read, "He shall be revealed in flaming fire, taking vengeance." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

    Christ Jesus referred to this sign when he said: “Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matt. 24:30) Thus the 'age of violence' was ushered in as the whole world experiences the Last Days. This age or time period will indeed come to an end. (Matthew 24:14)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Have you ever heard of cognitive bias? To avoid deviating from the truth, we must constantly remind ourselves, "I could be wrong." Just because you believe something to be so does not necessarily make it so. Trust me, I get it; I've been where you are. Remember this: Don't let your blind faith in the WT lead you off a cliff with them.

    This was a personal interpretation by Russel, not based on direct biblical connections. Why can you not think for yourself? You keep telling me how the WT gets to their understanding of 1914. I've known how they get to it for forty years. I went door to door teaching others that Christ was enthroned in 1914. You seem to think I don't know what you're sharing. I've known all of this forever.

    You still can't approach this conversation outside of your own bubble. Why not try to think for yourself for a moment and answer my question?

    Personal interpretation...

    In fact, Jesus said quite the opposite,

    "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Mth 24:30

    And before you start saying this scripture is separate from 1914, first show me where Jesus said He would return invisibly.

    "Ascertained" is false; it was a guess. It is not based on direct scriptural connections. You are simply believing that Russel must have had God's Spirit, so you believe him blindly. Why are you still refusing to think for yourself? Russel was a man not unlike any other sinful man.

    You are putting your life in his hands... You would think you would be a little more careful. Don't rely on that feeling in your heart, Bro.

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jer 17:9

    You still have not answered my question, Sir.

    Where is the direct biblical connection of Jerusalem or the 42-month Gentile times to Daniel 4?

    Joshua
     

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