1914 Problematic? Not at all!

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Feb 29, 2024.

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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    "Our Lord, in describing His Second Presence, clearly indicated that it would be unnoticed by the world until the cataclysm of trouble should come.
    The sign would not be needed if Jesus return was fleshly or physical. Jesus stated many things that would make up the sign. A time of testing before His Presence is revealed...
    • “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another." (Matthew 24:7)
    • But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13)
    The Biggest Sign of all is the one you are seeing today. "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14)
    • All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. (Matthew 24:8)
    WTS quote:
    It is just such a composite sign that marks the time of Jesus’ second coming, or, more accurately, his presence. The Greek word pa·rou·siʹa that many translations render “coming” at Matthew 24:3 does not mean a time when he would come or arrive but means that he has already arrived and is on hand, is present. In Jesus’ case it means that he is invisibly present as Jehovah’s enthroned King and is reigning from heaven. This is in keeping with Jesus’ statement at John 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more.” Since he would not be physically visible, he gave a sign that would indicate his return and invisible presence as Jehovah’s reigning King.

    The sign he gave did not have just one feature or a few features. It had many that were to be taken together as a composite sign, just as was the case with the composite sign at the time of his first coming as Messiah. Thus, with many features or events, he unmistakably signifies his invisible presence at this time as Jehovah’s reigning King enthroned in heaven but extending his power and influence to the affairs of earth. False alarms may result when only one or two of these features are stressed, rather than the many features that make up the composite sign. It is like the six blind men from Indostan, each one of whom jumped to a wrong conclusion because of feeling only one part of the elephant’s anatomy.

    The fulfillment of this composite sign given by Jesus, plus some additional conditions given by three of the apostles, began in a remarkable way from 1914 onward. A digest of these various features along with their fulfillments follows.

    “Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.” (Matthew 24:7) World War I began in 1914 with 28 nations involved, 14 million people killed. World War II followed with 59 nations involved, 50 million people killed.

    “In one place after another pestilences.” (Luke 21:11) As World War I ended, some 21 million people were felled by the Spanish flu. Since then, heart disease, cancer, AIDS, and other pestilences have killed hundreds of millions.

    “There will be food shortages.” (Matthew 24:7) The greatest famine in all history struck after World War I. Another terrible one followed World War II, and now malnutrition affects one fifth of the world’s population. Annually, some 14 million children die from malnutrition.

    “There will be great earthquakes.” (Luke 21:11) Earthquakes after 1914—consider a few major ones. In 1915, in Italy, 32,610 lives lost; 1920, China, 200,000 killed; 1923, Japan, 143,000 killed; 1939, Turkey, 32,700 killed; 1970, Peru, 66,800 killed; 1976, China, 240,000 (some say 800,000) killed; 1988, Armenia, 25,000 killed.

    “Increasing of lawlessness.” (Matthew 24:12) Lawlessness has run wild since 1914; today it is exploding. Murders, rapes, robberies, gang wars—they dominate the headlines and fill the newscasts. Politicians rip off the public, teenagers carry guns and kill, schoolchildren prey on one another. In many areas it is not safe to walk the streets even in daytime.

    Anguish of nations, not knowing the way out . . . Men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth.” (Luke 21:25, 26) Crime, violence, drug addiction, family breakups, economic instability, unemployment—the list is long and growing. One prominent scientist wrote: “We will eat fear, sleep fear, live in fear and die in fear.”

    “In the last days critical times hard to deal with.” (2 Timothy 3:1) The apostle Paul spoke of people “having come to be past all moral sense.” (Ephesians 4:19) He elaborated, however, on the moral breakdown he foretold for “the last days.” It sounds like today’s newscasts: “Know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

    “In the last days there will come ridiculers.” (2 Peter 3:3) Newspapers, newscasts, magazines, books, and movies scornfully dismiss the Bible and replace it with their own freethinking propaganda, saying, as Peter foretold: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”—2 Peter 3:4.

    “People will lay their hands upon you and persecute you.” (Luke 21:12) Starting in 1914 and through the years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been cruelly arrested, falsely convicted, mobbed, and thrown into Hitler’s concentration camps by the thousands, where they were tortured, many killed, some brutally by beheading. In other lands, both in dictatorships and in democracies, their work of witnessing to Jehovah and his Kingdom has been banned and the Witnesses thrown in jail. All of this in fulfillment of Jesus’ words for the last days.—Matthew 5:11, 12; 24:9; Luke 21:12; 1 Peter 4:12, 13.

    “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth.” (Matthew 24:14) What good news? The good news of Christ’s Kingdom ruling from heaven, for that was the question put to Jesus that produced his prophecy of the composite sign of that event. It has been preached by Jehovah’s Witnesses since 1914. Four thousand were doing it in 1919, over four million by 1990, and in 1992 in one month 4,472,787. Bible literature was distributed in some 200 languages in 229 lands. Never before has this feature of the composite sign been fulfilled.

    “Bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18) Greedy men have always been willing to ruin the earth for selfish gain, but never before this generation have they had the power to do so. Now, since 1914, modern technology has put that power into their hands, and they are misusing it. They are ruining the earth. End of WTS quote
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings, Bro...

    Could you share that scripture with me?

    The scripture I quoted says all the earth would recognize the sign, and they would all see the Son of Man. This scripture clearly says all the world would see him. Yet you say only a few would recognize it. Which is it?

    "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Mth 24:30

    And this was your words: "Even though just a few gain the discernment as to its timing, the others would not know until the prophecy were to come about and be fulfilled."

    So which is it? All would perceive him, or only a few? Because the scripture seems clear, all the world would "see" Him. The Greek word for see is horaó, meaning, (I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.)

    Regardless, everything in your posts is irrelevant if the tree in Daniel does not represent Jerusalem or the Gentile times. You have yet to answer my question.

    Where is the direct biblical connection of Jerusalem or the 42-month Gentile times to Daniel 4?

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Thank you for your reply. I quote this phrase to you many times but you have seemed to be stuck with the tree in Daniel 4.

    Do you SEE that? The Fulfillment of Prophecies are 'timed events'. It's all about 'timing' to inform righteous ones. Investigate any prophecy you like. The 70 weeks for instance pointed to Christ's First Presence in 29 CE. The Jews were aware of this timing (prophecy). The timing of when Jesus approached John to get baptized. The Messiah would be cut off in the middle of that week which was Nisan 14th 33 CE and the preaching work would then expand to the Gentiles in 36 CE. It was "a timed event."

    The Prophet Daniel foretold the coming of the First Presence of the Messiah. Not only did he pinpoint the year that the Messiah would show up but also pinpointed to the year of the Messiah’s death. According to the first-century historian Flavius Josephus, the nation of the Jews began looking for the Messiah in the second quarter of the first century. Some of the Jews were asking questions about the Messiah’s forerunner. Now the people were in expectation and all of them were reasoning in their hearts about John, “May he perhaps be the Christ?” (Luke 3:15)

    Daniel’s Prophecy Foretold the Messiah’s Arrival
    “70 WEEKS” (490 YEARS)
    • “7 WEEKS” (49 YEARS)

      455 B.C.E. “The word to restore . . . Jerusalem”

      406 B.C.E. Jerusalem rebuilt

    • “62 WEEKS” (434 YEARS)
    • “ONE WEEK” (7 YEARS) 29 CE - 36 CE

      29 C.E. Messiah arrives

      33 C.E. Messiah “cut off”

      36 C.E. End of the “70 weeks”
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I am well aware of all of that. It seems to be you who do not understand my question. For the 2520 years to be a "timed event" leading to 1914, one must connect that tree prophecy to the event you say it represents, IE, the Gentile times and Jesus receiving the kingdom.

    So, where is the proof that the tree represented Jerusalem, God's rule, or Gentile times so that we can say the 2520 days represent the time leading up to 1914? You have to start from the very beginning, BroRando.

    And just so you know, I'm well aware prophecies are timed events.

    Joshua

    Timeline of the End

    (7 Times, 7 Years Begin)
    666: December 28, 2028 – Asara B’Tevet
    |
    (2,300 Days Begin)
    Apostasy of God’s People: September 10, 2029 – Rosh Hashanah/Gedaliah
    |
    (1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 430 Days Begin)
    Preaching Given to Babylon: May 2, 2032
    |
    (430 Days End)
    Spiritual Walls Breached: July 6, 2033 – 9th Tammuz
    |
    Spiritual Temple’s Destruction: August 5, 2033 – 10th AV
    |
    (777th Day, 70 Weeks Begin)
    Call to Rebuild: June 17, 2034
    |
    (450 Days Begin)
    Governmental Collapse: October 4, 2034 – Sukkot
    |
    (1,260 Days End)
    Coronation: October 13, 2035 – Yom Kippur
    |
    (1,290 Days End)
    Abomination: November 12, 2035
    |
    (7 Times End)
    Christ Appears: November 22, 2035
    |
    (7 Years, 2,300, 1,335 Days End)
    The Final Kingdom: December 28, 2035 – Hanukkah
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Oh ya.

    Revelation 1:7
    Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I have moved our conversation on 1914 to this thread.

    You may not have read my #24 post. Please do so before replying.

    Also, did you not read all of post #22? The scripture you just quoted utterly contradicts what you are saying.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Look up the word Greek word for SEE.
    3708. horaó
    Strong's Concordance
    horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
    Original Word: ὁράω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: horaó
    Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
    Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
    Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

    HELPS Word-studies
    3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

    Does this answer how do we SEE if invisible??
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Tell me honestly, are you reading all of my posts? I gave you the definition of the Greek word horaó in post #22.

    That scripture says all the earth would recognize the sign, and they would all see the Son of Man. This scripture clearly says all the world would see him. Yet you say only a few would recognize the sign. Which is it?

    "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Mth 24:30

    And this was your words: "Even though just a few gain the discernment as to its timing, the others would not know until the prophecy were to come about and be fulfilled."

    Which is it?

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Correct. All those who SEE the sign then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, ungodly, godly, Jehovah's Witness and even the anointed will mourn because we entered into a time of distress.
    Read Daniel 12:1... I'm trying to help you understand so that you can escape them.. They don't last forever but will come to a conclusion. If the Presence of Christ is invisible look for the answer that Jesus gave in Matthew 24...

    Interesting enough the 4 Horsemen are the same sign...
    • 4592sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. 4592/sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it.
    Signs are manifestations which comes from the word epiphaniea. Some say epiphany. It's that a ah moment when you come to realize the unfolding of a current prophecy.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You're not very good at answering questions, huh? If you were really trying to assist me, wouldn't you answer the questions I have asked? I'm assuming you didn't answer my question about reading all of my posts because it's obvious you have not. You're too focused on teaching me rather than engaging in a back-and-forth discussion.

    Your interpretations (the WT's) are irrelevant until you give me a direct biblical connection between Jerusalem or the Gentile times to Daniel 4.

    I'm not saying Russel was wrong; I'm asking you to prove it to yourself and me.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Oh brother! Remember my first post in the manner I started?
    Notice what Jesus stated to Peter - He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    • In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.
    Jah in his own time will Reveal His Secrets to you, if you keep on knocking, keep on asking, and do not give up. I rather have someone like the Bereans than a yes man. You're doing just fine and i know you are starting to See. Give it some time. What you are learning, Holy Spirit will bring back to you. You will notice things soon. It's a Process... that you are going though I went the same process....
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Help me then...

    Give me a direct biblical connection between Jerusalem or the Gentile times to Daniel 4.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    Interpretations belong to whom? Yet, Jehovah allowed Daniel to SEE and gain understanding. That's the process. Approach Jehovah in prayer in all earnest. Study what we spoke about, then start piecing the puzzle together. The picture well become clearer.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So, you are saying you cannot answer my question? You can't provide me with a connection of Jerusalem or the Gentile times to Daniel 4? I thought you wanted to help me.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    I have but you are not allowed to SEE them yet... hopefully in time. "Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search.  They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow.  It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer." (1 Peter 1:10-12)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So, God has not allowed me to "SEE" them? Okay... ;) As I've told you before, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and learned everything you shared forty years ago. Perhaps you skipped past that in one of my previous posts. And by the way, I am still baptized and in good standing.

    You have to be commended for your faith, BroRando. I know what it's like to believe everything the WT teaches unquestioningly. You tie your entire faith and future to the WT. I get it...

    One thing is for sure, though: My question will forever be in your mind. Because there is no connection of Jerusalem, the Davidic throne, or the Gentile times to Daniel 4, and you will never find one.

    I hope you stick around because this is probably one of the few subjects we disagree on, brother, hence why I brought it up first.

    Joshua
     
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    BroRando

    BroRando New Member

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    You very well know the Christ is the one with the legal right came and removed the band in 1914 which proves you nothing more than an hypocrite and a denier of Christ.


    Zechariah 6:12
    And say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.

    Isaiah 6:13
    “But there will still be a tenth in it, and it will again be burned, like a big tree and like an oak, which after they are cut down leave a stump; a holy seed will be its stump.”

    Isaiah 11:1
    A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesʹse, And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit.


    An angel of Jehovah has removed you and placed you on the outside to rot away.

    Zechariah 14:12
    “And this is the scourge with which Jehovah will scourge all the peoples who wage war against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot away while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot away in their sockets, and their tongues will rot away in their mouths.
     
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    BroRando New Member

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    2034 and its significance…

    [​IMG]
    2034 has a dual significance of several Bible Prophecies that will begin to unfold in the near future. One of those prophecies are in response to the ‘short period of time’ Satan has, known as the Last Days. “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Rev 12:12)

    2034 doesn’t represent the beginning of this period but rather the end of it. The Last Days would come to a close as the allotted time is exhausted giving a full witness to the earth’s inhabitants. “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matt 24:14)

    That End is not the end of the world, but rather the End of an Age of Wickedness.

    • An Explanation from The Watchtower Magazine, December 15, 2003, Pages 14 – 19 entitled “Warned of “Things Not Yet Beheld”The issuance of this divine decree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world. Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring “the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh. What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in “the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:4)
    Could the Great Tribulation occur soon after 2034? It is possible that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was referring to the Great Tribulation as an allotment period of time. Why? Jesus explains to his followers, “Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man:” (Luke 17:26) Weren’t the days of Noah 120 years in length? (Genesis 6:3) This period (1914 + 120 yrs =2034) is a conclusion of the system of things. Don’t Give Up….

    What does tribulation mean?

    Definition of tribulation : distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution also : a trying experience

    ‘Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.’ (Rev 12:12) Are we not in distress and suffering resulting from oppression or persecution especially since 1914? The Last Days began in 1914, but could 2034 mark the end of the Last Days? It could… but more likely it’s the Separation Period of what is being harvested for Christ’s Millennial Reign that is poised to begin. (Matthew 13:47-48)

    The short period of time would not be an exhaustive amount of time that would seem to go on and on and on. The Scriptures point out that Satan recognizes that this allotment of time to be a short period of time. 2034 would not only represent the End of an Age, but would also mark a new society of righteous people also known as a Great Crowd for Christ Millennial Reign. Therefore, it makes sense that the Sealing of the 144,000 would be completed in 2033 prior to the end of the Last Days in 2034. Anointed collected and sealed from Pentecost 33 CE to 2033 – a two day period. (Hosea 6:2-3) “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19)

    Notice this teaching from the Apostle Paul, “For God is my witness of how I am longing for all of you with such tender affection as Christ Jesus has. And this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound still more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; that you may make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not stumbling others up to the day of Christ;” (Philippians 1:8-10)

    2034 is not an end all date, by this time Satan and his demons will have gathered the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty. (Rev 16:14)

    A host of other prophecies begin to emerge. For instance, the separation work of the sheep and goats begin. Jesus would grant Life to the Great Crowd of whom he chooses as his sheep. (Rev 7:13-14) The goats? They simply do not receive the blessing and continue to die in the same manner as Adam and Eve. That’s Armageddon folks, they simply return back to the ground with No Hope of a Resurrection. (Genesis 3:19) Therefore, the sheep simply outlive the wicked into the New System of things!

    They would be marked to be Survivors during this short respite period of peace. This period of Peace is when Jesus marks his sheep to continue living on. (Rev 8:1) This is the separation period when Jesus marks the Survivors to Keep On Living. Since this action is at first invisible, the manifestations will be felt and seen first by the one being affected with good health. Of course fellow sheep will see and experience the same blessing being bestowed upon them. And these things will rapidly become well known amongst God’s People.

    Those who do not receive the mark of Survivorship are goats, whom continue dying but that death is now a permanent one, they too begin to notice those who have God’s Name upon them are no longer getting sick nor dying. They notice painstakingly, they are still getting sick and dying. What is the result and this Witness mean to them? “All the peoples of the earth will have to see that Jehovah’s name has been called upon you, and they will be afraid of you.” (Deuteronomy 28:10)

    Therefore, ‘Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.’ (1 Thess 5:3)

    The sheep simply continue living during the condition or situation of Armageddon that forms at (Psalms 2:2) becoming Survivors of the Last Days. Once the Day of Christ does begin, no harm will be allowed to come upon the faithful as the wicked die off. Today, prior to 2034 we have brothers and sisters who are 70, 80, and 90 years old. Tomorrow, we look forward to Seeing our Brothers and Sisters becoming 100 and beyond and becoming heathier as each day passes. Yes, these things are just around the corner.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You've crossed the line. (again)

    What do you think I should do with you? I am really close to banning you from this forum, Rando. Are you going to snap out of it or not?

    You really think you are that angel from God with the power to judge, don't you? That's why you haven't answered my other thread, "BroRando." You do believe you are prophesied in Scripture, don't you?

    You have obvious signs of delusions of grandeur, Rando. I'm trying to help, but my patience is running thin. I pray (that if it be His Will), Jehovah will open your eyes and heart in this matter.

    Joshua
     

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