Adam & Eve...the final resurrections.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Cristo, Jan 20, 2017.

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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    This topic has been covered before regarding whether Adam and Eve will be given a second chance. Personally I feel they will, however there are many who disagree. This is one of those topics we won't know the answer to until all the resurrections occur.

    Here is a reasoning point that may help us reason on the topic. Jesus said about Satan at John 8:44 “That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

    Satan became Satan when he lied to Eve. According to Jesus, Satan was a murderer when he began therefore this would mean that Adam & Eve were murdered. Would not Jehovah feel some compassion for them given this fact?

    Thoughts....???
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    We have discussed this subject many times, with differing sides feeling strongly on the subject, but there isn't anything in the text that would give us an answer either way. The problem lies in the fact that Adam was a perfect son of God.
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Why is that a problem? Jesus Christ was perfect as well, wouldn't his death atone for a perfect man who had been murdered?

    Jesus was the one who said they were murdered, therefore doesn't this give some credibility to the fact that even though Adam made a poor decision, Jesus was giving final culpability to the sin by Satan which directly led to Adam and Eves murder, and ultimately all of mankind?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, the difference obviously is Adam sinned. Let's say Christ Jesus had sinned, what would have happened to him?
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    If Jesus had sinned he would have died just like Adam did. (Ro 6:23) . . .For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. . .

    However...once we have paid the penalty for the sin, the scriptures also teach us this...(Ro 6:7) 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

    Adam & Eve paid the price for their sin when they died. Jesus Christ paid the price so that if God chooses he could resurrect them through the ransom paid.

    The evidence in the scriptures actually does point to them being resurrected, how so?

    1. Eve WAS thoroughly deceived (1Ti 2:14) . . . the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression. Would the loving God we have, perfect in Justice and mercy not resurrect her because she was deceived, or would he have compassion?

    2. Jesus states they were murdered. He states at John 8:44 “That one was a murderer when he began". This statement alone speaks volumes as to the culpability of Adam & Eve, and enlightens us as to the serious predicament they were in having a murderous genius lunatic after them. Were Adam & Eve ever called murderers? The decision they made ultimately relegated all of us to death, but who does Jesus blame. SATAN!!!!

    3. Jesus Christ perfect ransom sacrifice would cover the death of Adam & Eve. There is no legal reason why they cannot be resurrected as the price has been paid. First by them at their death, and then by Jesus Christ at his.

    When looked at from a scriptural standpoint, the evidence actually points to a resurrection.

    If there is scriptural support for the alternative lets discuss it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

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    No, you may be right, I don't argue against it at all. In such debates like this I often take the alternative understanding to fish out all possible scenarios. I really don't have an opinion one way or the other.

    I'm just saying the other side of the argument is they were perfect, and their choice to sin was made with perfect minds and bodies, not unlike the angels. What if they were made perfect again, how do you know they wouldn't do the same thing? Like in the 1000 years to come, mankind will grow into perfection, and then Satan will be released to temp them, and any who fall into sin after becoming perfect are destroyed forever.

    So, we have examples of forgiveness of sin, but they were once perfect. According to scripture, faithful ones from the past who were faithful will be resurrected after the 1000 years are over, and only those who need to learn more of Jehovah will be resurrected during that time. So would Adam and Eve need to be raised to learn of Jehovah? Would they be raised as a faithful one?

    I understand both arguments, for and against raising them back up, and I wonder what the answer is.

    PS: A better question would be whether they were repentant.
     
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    Utuna

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    That's what you believe that the Bible says, not necessarily what the Bible says... :)
     
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    Utuna

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    On the one hand, Adam and Eve were perfect when they chose to sin. Imperfect people don't always choose to sin, they may do it out of weakness, ignorance or thinking that doing what caused the sin was the right thing to do. I was about to say : "When you are perfect, you don't...." As I don't know what being perfect feels like, I'll avoid using such sentences... Perfect people are supposed to know "perfectly" what they do, making decisions in full knowledge of the cause. However, I'm pretty sure that many people have a wrong idea of what being perfect really is, thinking mostly that it means having a perfect health and a four digit IQ, or more.... Personally, I don't think so... or better said, not that only...

    On the other hand, the apostle Paul said in 1 Tim. 2:14 that Adam became a transgressor for sinning deliberately whereas Eve was thoroughly deceived "only". That's, in my opinion, where come in the limits of what we call "perfection" and by extension the full scope of what the knowledge of good and bad being reserved to God really means.... Eve was perfect and yet, she was deceived... Can a perfect person with a perfect mind be naive ? It seems to be the case.... Is being perfect knowing all the ins and the outs about everything, like having some kind of an innate superior knowledge that would guide us all of a sudden, coming out of the blue because we're so intelligent and no matter what may happen ?

    To what extent is Eve responsible of the sin that she committed ?

    The value of Christ's ransom is destined to be a gift towards people who, by nature, don't deserve it. Do Adam and Eve deserve it ? If not, then what ?

    Here, I'm not asserting anything, just thinking out loud. Satan and the demons being in the heavenly realms and having a much higher level of consciousness and knowledge than humans, I'm not certain at all that Jesus' sacrifice or anything else may redeem them, just as the Bible strongly implies...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Ha...lol Just like the old days, the two brothers toe to toe in debate...lol Everybody stand back, sparks can fly...LOL

    An eternal battle between two immortals! ;)

    [​IMG]

    Well, this is a good venue for it, after all we are talking about "the final resurrection". Now, I'll give you, that scripture doesn't just come out and say "Hey, all faithful will be resurrected after the 1000 years", but just like anything else in scripture, we need to take the entire book into account before making any final subject judgments, and this one happens to be chronology... ;)

    So what I'm about to do is show you three different resurrections!

    So, let's take a look at the first resurrection;

    Rev 20:4 "Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."

    So, these ones are those who will be resurrected at the end of this system in order to rule with Christ, and this of course is the first resurrection that occurs at the beginning of the 1000 years;

    Rev 20:5 "This is the first resurrection."

    Now what about the second resurrection?

    Dan 12:2 "And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt."

    Here we understand that there is a resurrection during the 1000 years that involves some waking up to everlasting life, and some to everlasting cutting off. What is the difference between these two groups? Well, they are both resurrected, the difference is, some will survive the end of the 1000 years when death is done away with, while some who had been resurrected will be done away with along with death, for failing the final test. These are the ones that are resurrected to everlasting cutting off.

    Now, what about that third resurrection?

    Rev 20:5 " (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)"

    The context of the scripture this sentence is pulled from represents faithful ones who are resurrected to heaven, but why are these others mentioned in this same scripture, those that are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years? They are also faithful... They don't need the final test, they don't need to prove their faithfulness, because they did in their lives. They don't need to learn about Jehovah, and they don't need to prove they will be faithful to him, they did this in their lives. Like Daniel, Zechariah, John the Baptist, there is no reason for any of these men to be raised into the 1000 years. The 1000 years will be a time for Dan 12:2, a resurrection for people to learn of Jehovah and either earn their eternal life, or to be cut off forever in the second death. That is why it's called "second death" because some will die for a second time.

    To faithful ones of the past no time passes when they are dead, and eternal life means there is no such thing as concerns of time, so saying faithful ones should be resurrected as soon as possible has a very human outlook of time, and Jehovah does not live in those constraints, and neither will mankind after the 1000 years, when years turn into trillions of years, none of these events will ever be called to mind again.

    This is actually a loving thing on Jehovah's part. He will resurrect those who were faithful and proved their service to Jehovah in their first lives, and after the world is made perfect, and after Satan is destroyed at the end of the 1000 years, Jehovah will raise them to eternity.

    You know I don't want what I believe, I want what is actually there... :p
     
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    Cristo

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    Revelation delineates two specific groups, and two resurrections. Not three. Adding Daniel as a third does not accurately represent what Revelation 20:4-6 is conveying in it's resurrection description. How can we know this? Here is the account:

    (Re 20:4-6) 4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

    John describes two sets of individuals who are to become kings and priests. The first group are the ones who have were executed. Obviously these individuals are already dead and buried. He also describes those who had not worshipped the wild beast nor it's image. These ones may not have been dead when they were taken into the spiritual realm giving up their physical life to become kings and priests. (1Th 4:17) . . .Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.. . .

    These individuals were alive on earth when they were resurrected to the spiritual realm, yet Revelation 20:4 says "they came to life" after they are resurrected. Therefore when Revelation states that "they came to life" it is describing something MORE than just being alive. It is describing the true essence of what we were meant to be in the first place, perfect and clean according to Jehovah. It is only until God judges an individual and deems them worthy of life that it can be said that the person "comes to life". Until then we are all dead. (Eph 2:1) Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins,

    The second group mentioned in the Rev 20:5 is obviously everybody else other than the kings and priest, else why would he say "the rest of the dead"? "The rest of the dead" implies EVERYBODY else besides the kings and priests, not just a portion of who have not proven themselves yet as you present in your argument.

    Finally, what about those who survive Armageddon and make it into the new system without dying? These ones are not kings and priests, yet they have proven themselves enough to be kept alive from Gods judgment on the world. Does this mean then they have already "come to life" prior to the end of the thousand years? Does this harmonize with Rev 20:5 when it says "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended"?

    Although it is clear how you are coming up with this line of reasoning, your conclusion does not harmonize with what is being presented in scripture, and that IS what is actually there.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You relegate the first part of the scripture to mean literal, but the latter half metaphoric. You say those who died and are resurrected to rule are dead physically, and then come to life metaphorically, even though they are coming to life physically, but then the others who come to life at the end of the 1000 years are dead metaphorically. That doesn't allow for scriptural continuity.

    Both incidences of being dead MUST mean the same thing.

    You cannot claim the first group are dead physically, and the second spiritually, it is you who is not allowing scriptural continuity.

    Both groups must be dead, and come to life in the same manner. The first group cannot be talking about them being dead physically then coming to life spiritually.

    If the first group are killed with an ax, they are coming to life physically, they were not dead spiritually in the grave, their sins were forgiven. John wasn't seeing spiritually dead ones who did not worship the beast, these were alive ones spiritually when they were alive, they weren't dead in their sins, besides you claim dead means physically for the first group. There's no metaphoric ax... If their dead literally, their coming to life literally.

    Let me explain one more time, you claim DEAD in the first group is physical, but dead in the second metaphoric.

    You:

    First Group = Dead/Literal & Life/Metaphoric
    Second Group = Dead/Metaphoric & Life/Metaphoric

    Me:

    First Group = Dead/Literal & Life/Literal
    Second Group = Dead/Literal & Life/Literal


    Do you see which is the consistent one and allows for chronological continuity?
     
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    Baruq

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    I have a headache.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Once you meditate on it, it becomes clear. The gist is that since the first group in Rev 20:4-6 are spoken of as literally dead, then the second group must be speaking of ones who were literally dead as well, and in turn both coming to life must be literal.

    Cisco, I never said the "rest of the dead" were ones who didn't prove themselves yet, you misread. I said these are ones who died faithful, in the same way the first group did, they are those executed for their witnessing about Jesus, but not of the ruling class. Therefore these are faithful ones, who have already proven their loyalty to Jehovah's kingdom, and it's these that are raised to earth after the 1000 years are over.

    This is where Dan 12:2 comes in, because it does speak of a resurrection during that 1000 years, when ones will still be judged on conduct, all of those in Rev 20:4-6 were already judged faithful, and deemed worthy of eternal life. One could make a point that (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended) could be speaking of during the 1000 years, and its just saying that the entire group would not be finished until the end of the 1000 years, but a literal read would say John the Baptist wouldn't be resurrected until after the 1000 years ended.
     
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    Baruq

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    And what about those who have survived Armageddon? They must prove their faith twice?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    My only answer to that is, that is the circumstance of never having to die at all...

    The dead are acquitted;

    Rom 6:7 "For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin."
     
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    Cristo

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    (Re 20:4-6) 4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

    Explain this: (1Co 15:51-52) . . .Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death...(Rev 20:4)And they came to life and ruled as kings.

    __________________

    Regarding the "rest of the dead", you miss the point that was made. I will make it again and add to it. The phrase "the rest of" implies two or more parts to something. If I take a bite of a cookie, and give you "the rest of" it, that means the whole cookie was broken into at least two parts. It's a simple concept.

    When we look at Rev 20:4-6 there are two parts to a whole being spoken of. The whole part is those who eventually "come to life". The first part of that whole that is broken off are the kings when they come to life during the first resurrection. The second part of the whole is "the rest of" it, or EVERYBODY else who is not a king. Revelation tells us their are two parts to the whole, not three as you suggest. There are the kings and then everybody else.

    Your argument means those who are resurrected during the thousand years are NOT part of the "rest of" the dead, creating a third group, yet at some point many of those who are resurrected during the thousand years will eventually have to "come to life". According to you when does this occur?

    Joshua, your argument creates more problems than it solves.



    __________________
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    lol... It just means we have to adjust understanding down the line of chronology is all, since everything is connected. Even one piece out of place and everything is wrong, so the right answer is when all things fit, like a puzzle without error.

    The short of it; There are three conditions of Christs brothers (144k) when he appears in the clouds. Some will have been resurrected as angels, some will be man, and some will be dead, and at that point all will be raised to him in the clouds. Now I'll explain...

    First, there is a point where some of Christs brothers will be resurrected literally here on earth as angels like Jesus was, but they wont be raised to heaven yet. They will experience the same thing Jesus did, they will be resurrected to earth before being raised to heaven.

    Some of their brothers will still be alive, and yet will be killed. These are those who were alive still when those of Christs brothers are resurrected, those who lived and died like Peter, James, John etc...

    So John and James etc will be resurrected, but those like myself will still be alive as human (Although transfigured, but that's another thread.)

    Rev 6:9-11 "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."

    You see, this scripture is speaking of the dead in Christ being resurrected literally, and they are to wait on earth until some of those still alive of their brothers are killed. Those dead in Christ will be resurrected first, but will not be raised to heaven yet. We know this because all of Christs brothers will meet him in the clouds at the same moment. They wait on earth, and in fact the chronology says it will be 40 days, just like Jesus's experience. Christs brothers from the past will be resurrected, and then some of those alive will be killed during these 40 days, and then those who were resurrected first, and those who were killed, and those still alive of Christs brothers will all together meet him in the clouds when he comes.

    The first;

    1Th 4:16 "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

    Then those still alive of Christs brothers will be raised to heaven along with those who were already resurrected 40 days before.

    Those alive;

    1Th 4:17 "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

    The dead;

    Rev 20:4 "Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."

    The first group in Rev 20:4 are humans who will be anointed, and will have been killed in the end, after their brothers had already been resurrected and wait for them to be killed.

    Keep in mind that the first resurrection had already past when these are resurrected in Rev 20:4, we know this because of the very first sentence; "And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge." Therefore there were some of Christs brothers already alive, sitting on thrones, before those who did not worship the beast and killed with the ax were resurrected. But we should also keep in mind that the second group who are the REST, cannot be of the ruling class, and have to be those who did not receive the mark but died faithful. Hence why they don't need be raised until after Satan is destroyed.

    So at the end of the 40 days there will be three conditions of Christs brothers;

    First: Those who were resurrected 40 days before, and remain on earth like Jesus did.

    Second: Those still alive of Christs brothers.

    Third: Those who were just killed by the 8th king.

    Then it is at that point 1Th 4:17 will be fulfilled when they will all meet the Lord in the air when he appears in the clouds.

    Now, your analogy of the cookie. You cannot use the analogy of part and whole with those two groups. You say both groups are the cookie, and a piece was taken away being the first group, and the second group is the remaining. This cannot be the case, because the first group is said to be ruling with Christ for the 144k, and the second group are not. If we were to use your analogy then you are saying that only part of those who will rule with Christ are raised at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the rest of those ruling at the end, but that makes no sense, since they are to rule for a 1000 years. All ruling ones meet the Lord when he appears in the clouds. Keep in mind both being dead and coming to life are the same for both groups, therefore literal.

    No, instead the REST must be a different group, because they are not of the ruling group, because they are not resurrected till after the 1000 years are over. And we also know they can't be all mankind, because not all men will be resurrected again, does Hitler need to be resurrected? So the answer must be these are ones who are worthy of resurrection. They can't be those who received the mark of the beast obviously, they aren't worthy of resurrection either. The only thing one can glean then is the scripture is saying the rest of faithful ones. These must be the same as the first group in only one way, they did not take the mark of the beast, but proved their faith to Gods kingdom and died faithfully. Therefore they would not even need to be resurrected during the 1000 years, they are acquitted of their sins by there death, and proved loyal to Jehovah's kingdom, they earn their reward, eternal life...

    The group who are actually raised during the 1000 years are judged worthy or not during that time;

    Dan 12:2 "And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt."

    There is no reason for John the Baptist, or Daniel or any other faithful one to be resurrected into the 1000 years. Those still alive after Armageddon, and those resurrected to learn of Jehovah will build the earth into a paradise, then many will be killed off when Satan is let loose again, and then after they are all destroyed, then we raise all the faithful ones from the past to a paradise earth.

    That is exactly correct, that's what the scripture says. When you realize the first group is dead physically, and therefore the second group is spoken of as dead physically, that means both groups are coming to life physically, and that means the REST don't come to life, or resurrected until after the 1000 years are over.

    Therefore there has to be a third group, those who are actually resurrected during the 1000 years, and enter Dan 12:2.

    Your question doesn't make any sense. I've pointed out that Rev 20:4,5 are speaking of physically dead and literal coming to life, therefore the coming to life is simply being resurrected from the dead. Those being resurrected to life in Rev 20:5 who are called the REST are not resurrected during the 1000 years, they are resurrected after the 1000 years are over, just like it says.

    If there are inconsistencies in our understanding of prophecy, or as I've always like to call them "paradoxes", then it's our own understanding of chronology that is wrong. Scripture is perfect without a single error, and I don't mean a spelling somewhere, or a slight word change somewhere else, I mean, the sentence structure and meaning have never changed for thousands of years, and there isn't as single error as to chronology.

    Since my work has been the chronology, I have been comforted greatly seeing how perfectly Jehovah wove his time table throughout all scripture, and no group of men could have ever done it, it is the Words hand alone, our Lord.

    There is a right answer to what event comes before and after another, and when in the time table each event occurs, it's just a jigsaw puzzle in pieces put in a box and shaken. Hence why in my opinion it took the invent of computers before it was mapped. Without computers there's no way I would be at the understanding I am now...

    With all brotherly love Cisco...
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Wow!!! Now I have a headache...and who's Cisco? No wonder nobody hardly messages on here anymore...

    Believe what you want man...this is a waste of time. Your hubris is deafening..

    I made my point regarding Adam & Eve. Done!
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

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    Can you point out in my posts where I was prideful or arrogant?

    I'm not sure I understand what your saying here, no wonder no one messages on here any more? What does that mean, are you saying that you see some reason for them not too? And I'm sorry I spelled Cristo wrong, predictive spelling adjusts it, so I made a mistake.

    It's my opinion you aren't showing christian love in your post.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    I didn't necessarily want to resume a debate about this subject. I was just surprised to notice that despite you being the only one in the whole universe to believe such controversial things, you assert that your conclusions are altogether scriptural, or better said, are undoubtedly what the Bible says...

    No biggie ! :)
     

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