Dan 8:10-12; "It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success." These scriptures in Daniel are speaking about Gods people. Army being the earthly hope, the stars being the anointed. The Prince of the Army is Jesus. The small horn in Dan 8 is said to "cause some of the army and some of the stars to fall." Those are the ones we read about in Dan 11, and the way they fall is by "smooth words." Dan 11:32-35; “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech. And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed." The timing of these events are clearly stated in both places as just before the constant feature is to be removed. This "causing army and stars to fall" is not the same moment as the constant feature being removed, and represents the ones who "act wickedly against the covenant" at Dan 11:32-35. For we know from 2Th 2 that the MOL comes from within the Temple of The God, that means the MOL is one of the ones acting wickedly against the covenant. We only need to look to Judas for this example. No, when Jesus is enthroned and the dead who are to be raised to heaven are raised, there are still some on earth with a heavenly hope that will be alive on earth and not yet raised. They wont be raised to heaven right away. Remember the end is not yet. 1 Cor 15:52; "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed." 1 Th 4:17; "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;" See?
Yeah, why did ten spies out of twelve have the willies when they saw what the inhabitants of Canaan looked like, in spite of all that Jehovah had done for Israel during 40 years ? Please read : "And there we saw the Neph′i·lim, the sons of A′nak, who are from the Neph′i·lim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes.â€" - Num.13:33 Grasshopers ???? Oops, no pun intended... Or better said, no scriptural soup intended... Yeah, faith in what happened 1 000 years ago and that has been passed on by ancestors during such a long time will certainly be a surefire safeguard against Satan's ultimate snares... "Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rv20:7-10 Yeah, that's an excessive number. Only a handful, at most, will be concerned. The Bible is too pessimistic and doesn't trust the goodness that humans have in their hearts. Why would humans not be moved by that which Jehovah did, is doing, has done and will be doing in the future...? A handful... I'm telling you, at most !
What is that said apostasy? I beg to differ… when Jesus gathers his chosen ones, the dead, and the living go at the same time. The dead are raised (resurrected) and the livings are changed in a twinkling of an eye. (The so-called rapture) What is the last trumpet and when does it blow? When you say: What end are you refferring to? When is Jesus made manifest?
Your something else... Regardless, the one born at year 900 who has never sinned and lives on after the final test would never need any of that. He will simply be like Adam when God said don't eat of the tree, and had he not he would still be here, a perfect human.
No one knows yet. That's the next prophecy to be fulfilled. Dan 11:30; “He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant." What ever is said here is the apostasy. Not so brother. Take for example Moses when he saw a representation of God, or the Transfiguration. These scripture below are telling you that some of the Sons of God will still be on earth when the others are raised. Look at this scripture in Rev that I forgot to put in my last post. It says clearly there are some of the anointed still on earth after the others have been raised; Rev 6:11; "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true,are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?†And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been." These ones are told to "wait" because their brothers were still on earth and were about to be killed. That's because the end is not yet at this moment. These scriptures below reference this as well. 1 Cor 15:52; "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed." 1 Th 4:17; "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;" At the completion of the 1260 days/42 months. The 7th trumpet and bowl, as well as the first six seals all occurs on this day. These are the seven thunders at Rev 10:3. Now I sure hope you don't want to dig into that quiet yet.
I can’t ignore what Rev 6:9-11 says I need to think more about what is it saying and see who’s who… but you choose to completely ignore what scriptures are posted in regards to Jesus gathering his chosen ones. They state that when Jesus sends forth his angels to gather his chosen ones that this will happen when the last trumpet sounds and that the dead will rise at that time and the living will be changed at the same time as the dead being raised. What about these two questions:
Trust me, I haven't ignored anything. Maybe you've misunderstood. The dead are raised at the last trumpet. There are a lot of events at this last trumpet John. This is the Day of Atonement, and Jesus is enthroned, dead raised who are in union with him. But, yes the living are only changed at that moment, they are not raised yet, some will still be killed, those being the Two Witnesses. That in itself tells you the world goes on after that point. Are you seeing a pattern here yet? That the end of the 42 months isn't the last day for the nations? Now, I'm not sure what your asking. The 42 months end when Jesus is enthroned and the dead are raised at the 7th trumpet. The world and nations go on after that for another 30 days when the disgusting thing stands in a Holy Place, then 45 days later is the first day of the New World.
What do me the living are only changed at that moment but not raised? Changed how? Verse 17 states that the living will be caught away in the clouds to meet Jesus at the same time the dead are raised to meet him. When is Jesus made manifest? 1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, YOU will receive the unfadable crown of glory. Colossians 3:4When the Christ, our life, is made manifest, then YOU also will be made manifest with him in glory. 1 John 2:28So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. 1 Timothy 6:14 that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. What end are you referring to? What’s the end?
They will have been sealed. They will glow like Moses and Jesus did. Their skin will luminess. The moment he is enthroned at the end of the 42 months. I meant the end of this system is not yet after the 42 months end. Even though the 42 months end, this system will continue for 75 days before the first day of the New World. If it helps you at all, the 7th trumpet, 7th bowl and the 6th seal all occur on that day the 42 months end. The 7th seal does not occur till 30 days later. The trumpets and bowls all happen the same time, then the seals come after.
just a little add on. behold I tell you a sacred secret you will not sleep but you will be changed in the blink of an eye. now some say that Jesus meant just his apostles. but I favor that all of the 144000 upon body death go to be with Jesus.. and the rest of righteous men and women that have died.well I think that when they die the body death their spirit goes to Jehovah were they enjoy a restful sleep but are quite alive within Jehovah.and will be resurrected with a new body in Jehovah's time.
No it is not said that the MOL comes from within the temple of the God, is says: Not saying anything on the following yet…still a work in process! Regardsless of the fact that I see that the scriptures are saying that the dead and the living chosen ones will go together at the same time to meet Jesus upon his arrival…with that aside I have this to ask, if you say that the two witnesses make up those of the living ones still alive on the earth, then if the living chosen ones are said that they will never die/see death, then can it be said they are going to be killed? Not only does it not make sense to say that ones are going to be killed when it is said of them that they will not fall asleep in death (die), but even putting that aside and say “well when they are killed they won’t really die because they go straight to Jesus right away upon their being killed… well that is not the case in what is said with the two witnesses
Really John? These are all talking about the small horn, the very entity that takes down the Constant Feature, and then later after rising from the abyss will become the Eighth king. The beast in rev 13. Oh no brother, the two Witnesses are without a doubt two individual humans. Two Witnesses The ones still alive will never see death. Clearly Rev 6 says that will not be the case for them all, however there still will be some that will never die. Now, It doesn't say all would not die, it only says those still living... Look; 2Th 4:17; "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." 1Cor 15:51; "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed" These scriptures are simply only telling you about those who will not die, you cannot determine from these scriptures if any will die after Holy Spirit is poured out. If you keep looking you will see that some will, just as Rev 6 says. At least two that we know of, and we have Stephen as the dual fulfillment. Most likely that is why those events occurred with Stephen. The Two Witnesses will be the only ones that will not instantly go to Jehovah at that time of their deaths, because they die after the dead are risen and before the rest of the anointed alive do. The moment the Two Witnesses are raised is the moment the rest of the anointed still alive are together with them caught up to heaven. They will mirror Jesus three days in the grave. When they rise, it will be what disturbs the Eighth king out of the north at Dan 11:40, the whole earth will see it...
You can make “in the temple of The God†as big as you want but it doesn’t make the scripture read how you want it to and it doesn’t change what I am pointing out! No it is not said that the MOL comes from within the temple of the God, is says: He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god†or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Saying he comes from “within†denotes that he was/is already part of… saying that he “sits down†can indicate that he comes in and does so at that time. Daniel 8:25 [SUP]23[/SUP] “And in the final part of their (7[SUP]th[/SUP] king?), kingdom as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. [SUP]24[/SUP] And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of [the] holy ones. [SUP]25[/SUP] And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken. Daniel 11: “And he (KOTN) will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. [SUP]31[/SUP] And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]. “And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.[SUP]32[/SUP] “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. [SUP]33[/SUP] And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. [SUP]34[/SUP] But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. [SUP]35[/SUP] And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.[SUP]36[/SUP] “And the king will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvelous things. And he will certainly prove successful until [the] denunciation will have come to a finish; because the thing decided upon must be done. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 He (the MOL) is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god†or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god Revelation 13:[SUP]5[/SUP] And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (the wild beast), and authority to actforty-two months was given it. [SUP]6[/SUP] And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. [SUP]7[/SUP] And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, Daniel 7:25 And he (the small horn) will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand fora time, and times and half a time.[SUP]26[/SUP] And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally. (Daniel 12:7) And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be foran appointed time, appointed times and a half.And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.†(Revelation 11:2) But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. (Revelation 11:3) And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesya thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.†(Revelation 11:7) And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. Revelation 17:11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.
Hi John, I agree with you on this. You can add to your argumentation the verses in Isaiah and Ezekiel about the king of Tyre/Babylon. Sorry, I can't quote the verses because I'm taking my ten at work and am using my cellphone to write this post. Josh said so because he thinks, like Robert, that the GB is the MOL.
That’s a problem, that is, thinking in the JW mentality of JW’s being God’s people. If they are, then they are because they really are, and that will become event in both studying the scriptures and by world events, but they are not his people just based on that they claim to be and you believe it. My point is that when discussing the scriptures, no identity should be put on what is written other then what it says. For instance, is it written that there is going to be an attack on JW’s, or will it be on Jehovah’s people? Is it written that only JW’s that don’t receive the mark of the beast are who are found to come off victorious from the wild beast or does it say those who are found to come off victorious? Is it written that only JW’s that don’t receive the mark will not be able to buy or sell or does it say that nobody will be able to buy or sell except those having the mark? So on and so on… Let me ask in a different way, when it is said that the apostasy has to come first and that it is the KOTN that will cause this apostasy, how are we to take the word apostasy here? It means, “turn away fromâ€, so the KOTN will cause people to turn away from? Does that tie in with:
In fact "within" is the correct term as it is said in the context written. 2Th 2:3,4; "Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?" In the context of the scripture above it denotes that this entity is in fact already within the Temple and is simply waiting to be revealed. The context does not read as though all of a sudden he sits and his sitting is what reveals him, no in fact Paul says that this influence was already starting to sit there way back 2000 years ago. It is said first that he is waiting to be revealed, that means he is already sitting without being noticed. If the act of sitting was to be his revealing then there would be no need to word the prophecy as you see it, for it is saying that this entity is waiting to be revealed while he continues to sit in the Temple undetected. When the disgusting thing sits in the Holy Place it is to destroy it. History and scripture shows that. The scriptures in 2Th show the Temple carries on while the MOL sits in it. The MOL can not be the disgusting thing. I started a whole thread on this subject HERE.
However, I don't (as you see) need to connect any entity or prophecy in scripture to a current existing entity in order to discuss prophecy. Prophecy does not need us to explain itself. Therefore that's why I usually stick to what it says in the context it says it instead of muddying it by connecting it to modern events or entities, because in a study of scripture that can get the conversation off track, just like it did when someone brings up I think that the MOL is in the GB. Yes, I believe that but it isn't necessary to define prophecy. One can use the terms it uses. Constant Feature, Temple, MOL, Small Horn. These all of course have modern fulfillment, but scripture explains itself without having to make modern connections. I remember when I first came across Roberts page for the first time. I had spent years trying to figure out the connection between the heaven high tree and the destruction of Jerusalem as the society teaches. Of course I was never able to connect them, then while reading Roberts articles I came to Dan 11:30 and Dan 12:11 and noticed that there were two different time periods mentioned, and that's where I picked up with searching out true chronology. I always kept in mind and fought with myself to remember not to have my own understanding in chronology, but that I only wanted Jehovah's truth. At times that can be very difficult, because you have an idea of two events that connect and you try to determine if it's true. Once you find one single scripture that contradicts it you have to realize you are wrong. At first it was a very disappointing thing to be wrong, but I began to realize over time that every time I was wrong I was discovering the truth. You know that feeling when you unlock truth in scripture? It's an incredible moment. Therefore I learned to love to be wrong, I would strive forward 18 hours a day for months on while doing nothing but trying to prove myself wrong in chronology, and along the way discovering what some of those events within mean, but that not being my main focus. Because, I believed if you knew what event comes before or after another then you could go back and determine what each event is... Moral to the story? I would want nothing more then for someone to prove scripturaly that the chronology I have posted is wrong, that would simply mean I am one step closer to the Truth.
If you head down the road to think that the beast in Rev 13/Small Horn/King of the north is the MOL you will run into a dead end. I'm not saying take my word for it, all I'm saying is before setting your mind to it, work out all the possible paradoxes. One being the "it" in 2Th 2:3; "because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first." This is speaking about the beginning of the GT. We know the GT starts with the Constant Feature being removed (parallel with Jerusalem encircled). Then three and a half years later the Disgusting thing is placed. So therefore that makes it within itself impossible for the beast in Rev 13/Small Horn/King of the north to be the MOL. I know I've brought it up many times, but I highly suggest you start in the 12th chapter of Daniel, especially verse 11. Not being a big head, just a brother with a suggestion.