Here is another scripture that can make people wonder. “The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, ‘Let us tear their fetters apart. And cast away their cords from us!” ( Psa 2:2-3 NASB ) This scripture was repeated by the companions of Peter and Paul at Acts 4:26. In Rev 16:14, “the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty”. Again, it says: “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, ‘Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.’” ( Rev 17:1-2 NASB ) From all of these scriptures it shows that the kings, and nations are against Jehovah and His son, Jesus Christ. But, after the kings of the earth and the nations are destroyed, it says, “And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.” (Rev 21:24 NWT) It continues, “And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.” (Rev 21:26 NWT) “. . .God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.” (Rev 22:5b NWT) Who are these these nations and these kings?
Yes brother, in the chronology it is interesting that it appears this moment of casting their cords away is the same moment the king of the north comes against the holy place. Dan 11:44,45 “But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him." These world nations somehow have the idea that if they kill the remaining brothers of Christ on earth that Jehovah will move on from earth and leave them alone, hence the term of casting their ropes off. After the reports of the transfiguration of Christs brothers, there will be the call by the angel of everlasting good new to all the earth. Rev 14:6 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people." Mth 24:14 "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Then the end will come... Of course this is presented very simple, and all scripture is needed to determine the chronology, but for ease of conversation I presented the idea in short hand... These new nations are that of the fulfilled covenant for a kingdom from Christ Jesus. Luk 22:29 "And I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom," As well, these kings will be Christs brothers who receive crowns and rule with him in his kingdom. Zech 6:11 "You should take silver and gold and make a crown and put it on the head of Joshua son of Je·hozʹa·dak, the high priest." Rev 5:9,10 "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
And, one more scripture to ask a Trinity believer; “If Jesus is God, how do you explain this scripture:" “. . .and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”? (Lu 22:29) There is a covenant for a kingdom! The Greek word used here is diatithemai (dee-at-ith'-em-ahee), which means; 1. to arrange, dispose of, one’s own affairs a. of something that belongs to one b. to dispose of by will, make a testament 2. to make a covenant, enter into a covenant, with one How does God make a will, or covenant/agreement with Himself?
Hey JoshuaStone, Here’s a few questions for everyone here, but especially for you. I like your reasoning and knowledge. I don’t always agree, but I appreciate you a lot. It was said, “Revelation was given in “signs” to John. Therefor, it is not to be taken literally. The 7 churches is prophetic, in signs, and not a literal number. That also applies to all numbers in the prophesy.” Give me some apologetic feed back to defend your reasoning for both cases. Where do we make an argument for literal vs prophetic? Examples: “John to the seven churches that are in Asia:” “from the seven Spirits who are before His throne” (Rev 1:4) “saw seven golden lampstands;” (Rev 1:12) “In His right hand He held seven stars” (Rev 1:16) “I saw twenty-four elders sitting” (Rev 4:4) “And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:” (Rev 7:4) “Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them.” (Rev 10:4b) “and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” (Rev 11:3) “Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days,” (Rev 11:9) “a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake” (Rev 11:13) That should be enough for now. Everybody jump in. Show me how you arrive at your answer, whether from scripture or a particular “organized” religion’s viewpoint and teaching. I'm also not going to criticize anyone for their viewpoint or explanation. It will all be for learning and teaching.
Tsaphah, I as well appreciate your insight, and have learned much from our association, and hope that never changes. Over the years I have learned to be slow to speak and quick to listen, and that has helped me mature. While I was once brazen and brash, the spirit continues to mold me into a new person and I have discovered patience and time are the keys to learning. We need to take the time to read, to follow up, to not skip over others posts, and when we do that we will actually find wisdom, learning from each other. I've always been a bit uncomfortable with connecting the terms metaphor and sign. To me a sign of what is to come can be simply visions, an auditory and visual experience given to John of things to come. I don't think I'm comfortable attaching the idea that everything in Revelation should be considered a metaphor simply because Revelation was given to John as a sign. I see only three options. One, the entire book and every single statement is a metaphor. Two, every single sentence is literal, and three there are both literal and metaphoric statements in the text. Now, the first premise that would be addressed is that every single statement in Revelation is a metaphor. All we would need to do is find one single sentence in Revelation that could not be a metaphor, and that would discount completely the idea that the entire book is symbols. Now I will address the numbers separately, because I believe you have a valid point to separate them out in your post, and for good reason. So with that said, let's find a statement that can't be anything but literal. Well, after thinking, there are so many that I'll just state one, such as; Rev 22:19 "If anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll." So my first take away from this is that one cannot say that every statement in Revelation is a metaphor. Now how about to the second possibility, in that all sentences in Revelation are literal? Rev 13:1 "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads." Okay, so clearly we have literal statements in Revelation, and as well metaphorical. So the conclusion moving forward must be that both literal and metaphoric imagery is presented in Revelation, and scripture must explain itself in order to determine which statements are literal, and which should be taken metaphorically, and that brings me into the numbers. So it would seem the only way to approach them is with the understanding that one must allow scripture to explain itself, but that they could be either metaphoric, or literal, or both. But, the valid question comes up of the possibility of the numbers uniqueness, for it is possible that all the numbers are either metaphoric or literal, separating themselves from the rest of the book as a separate argument for totality. While the images can be either literal or metaphoric, the numbers could separately be all or not. The good place I like to start is the three and a half days the two witnesses are killed. Rev 11:9 "Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days,” Now, the train of thought would be first to see if this number is connected to any others in scripture. We have 1260 days and as well 42 months mentioned in Rev 11 and 12, so the question is what do the three and a half represent, do they represent these 1260 days? Well, one cannot make that jump, because if the 1260 days are stated just like that, 1260 "days", and you have a statement of three and a half "days" then there is no way to connect those two, for days metaphoric or literal are just that, and these two time periods are different, therefore it should be determined that the three and a half days cannot be connected to the 1260 or 42 months, nor can the three and a half days be connected to a half of a 7 years period, for precedence would say you must also apply the 1260 days in such a manner, and saying the three and a half days is metaphoric of a 1260 day period is purely self interpretation and a step away from scriptural continuity. Conversely it can be presumed that the 1260 days equal the 42 months, for they state a same day count but in a differing format. Now the next train of thought would be, what if all the numbers are metaphors for an unknown length of time? Then the question of why comes in play. Why would Jehovah place all these numbers, differing in length, and some even matching, directing us to a similar time period such as the 1260/42 if they were meaningless, or part of an actual day count and time period, but placing no direct information of the actual day count? It would render the numbers presented invalid. Obviously with this line of thought one should come to the conclusion that these numbers are in Revelation to indicate actual time periods. We also have a connection from Revelation to Daniel as well and the 1260 days; Rev 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days." Rev 12:14 "But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent." Dan 12:7 "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time." So then with the other numbers mentioned in Dan 12 such as the 1290 and 1335 days, the 1260 in Daniel must be considered literal, which then takes us back to Rev 11 and the 42 months mentioned there, and the most logical step would be to say the 42 months must be literal of the 1260 days that are themselves literal as well. Now back to the three and a half days the two witnesses are killed. If they cannot be connected to the 1260/42 months, and have no other connection to any other time frame in scripture then ones first thought should be "literal" for the precedence so far is of literalness totality. At least moving forward one considers this might be the rule of thumb. Besides, what use or purpose would a scripture have to say they were dead three and a half days if that wasn't the length of time literally, and no other connections to allow us translation? Jehovah could have said three days and nights, mirroring Jesus time in the grave, or Jonah's experience in the wale, or any other time periods for that matter. Obviously the number has significance, and if all other connections are ruled out the last remaining is it must be literal. Now are the 12000 from each tribe literal? Are the 144k literal? Well, we know their were literal 12 tribes of Israel, and if you take 12000 from each you get 144k, so is there a reason to believe the number is metaphoric? Is there a precedence one can lean on in order to verify that? You see, the burden of proof lies with the one who claims the number is metaphoric, because in reality one must consider all things literal unless you can directly connect a statement to another proving said statement should be taken metaphorically. Let me give you an example; Jesus said; Jhn 10:30 "I and the Father are one.” Okay, one could read many things into that scripture, so the course of action would be to see if there are any connections to statements elsewhere in scripture that will define this statement for us, and in fact there is; Jhn 17:21 "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." (NIV) Therefore Christ Jesus was speaking metaphorically of him and his Father being one in action, deed and purpose when he said he and his Father are one. So then the first line of reasoning should be since the 12 tribes of Israel are mentioned in Revelation (which were a literal number in the past), then we should first consider that the 144k are also literal, for these are taken from those 12. Now the 12 "tribes" mentioned being literal or metaphoric is a whole other subject of course and no need to get into that here, but I am of the thought the Israel spoken of here is the spiritual one, rebuilt in the time of the end. Also it should be noted there is another group of people mentioned along side the 144k in Rev 7, and they are described as a "great crowd, no one could number." So if one considers why the first group is numbered but the second are not, it's not a feat of logical deduction to say that the second group are not numbered because there is no need to give an exact number, while there was need for an exact number in the first group. For at that point there is no reason to number them without connection elsewhere to inform us of the reason, therefore they are literally 144k. Now, are the seven churches literally 7? Well it's interesting that we can connect one of them to another location in Revelation; Rev 8:10 "The third angel blew his trumpet. And a great star burning like a lamp fell from heaven, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters." This star that falls from heaven is like a lamp, so where else do we see stars that are described as lamps? Rev 1:20 "The seven stars mean the angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean the seven congregations." So it can be determined that this star that falls from heaven burning as a lamp is in fact one of the seven stars in Christ Jesus hand, one of the lampstands and churches of the seven, but which one? Well, there is only one of the seven churches mentioned as being cast out by him, and that is Laodicea; Rev 3:14-18 "To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth. Because you say, “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know that you are miserable and pitiful and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be exposed, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes so that you may see." This church is vomited out of Christs mouth, cast out. It's interesting its described as look warm water, and the Wormwood star falls on the waters, and the church of Laodicea is warned that they need to keep their outer garments so that their nakedness not be exposed, a hint that this church will probably be present in the time of the end. As well Amos connects this Wormwood to this future spiritual Israel; Amos 5:7 "You turn justice into wormwood, And you cast righteousness to the earth." So my point is, if we can determine that just one of the churches are literal, it's quite possible the others are going to be as well. Then we start to see a pattern, a pattern pointing to all of the numbers in Revelation being literal. Which if you think about it, make sense. They either need to all be literal or not, there is a chronological continuity the Bible lives by, and contains strict guidelines based upon it's own rules, but nothing that can't be clearly uncovered. I have discovered in scripture that if one can learn the rules of the game as your going along, you can start to rely on them, and they tend to help you win, when you lean on them in new avenues of research. As always brother, I hold you in the greatest esteem...
In Jehovah's scheme of things "the church" or the "Congregation" is the entirety of the Christian Congregation under the headship of 1 person acting as a vassal for Christ. Jehovah doesn't ever have a multi-headed beast. So, the seven "congregations" are the entirery of True Christianity of the time under the vassal headship of one chosen person or head. That chosen person, or head is the Messenger or Angel of that "congregation", the entirety of Christianity of that time or until their death and the "congregation" of the next vassal of Christ as head. 1. Russell's congregation or "loaf", 2. Rutheford's congregation or "loaf", 3. Knorr's congregation of loaf, 4. Franz's congregation or loaf, 5. Henshel's congregation or "loaf" (5 loaves) then the (two fishes) of 6. Messenger of Philadelphia and 7. Messenger of Laodicea. Like the first five, the last two represent the entirety of the True Christian Congregation under these two Messenger's. Only the congregation is split, divided because of the Watchtower's prostitution. Philadelphia breaks from the Watchtower and Laodicea remains but is "undercover" in the Watchtower. They are like the family of Rahab in Nineveh. Daniel 12:7 when read how it is actually written does not say three and a half tiimes. It says "time", "times" and a half. It does not say "half time or times". You can read it as 1/2 a time, but it is not written that way. If Jehovah actually meant to say three and a half times there he would have said it. He did not. It could just as easily mean 3 times plus 1/2 again or 4 1/2 times. Or it could mean half of two times plus the three and be four times. You assume that it means 3 1/2 times but you know what happens when you "assume" anything. Previously in Daniel Jehovah had Daniel actually write three and a half times, which proves that Jehovah knew how to inspire his prophet to write what the Holy Spirit told him to write. He could have done it again in Daniel 12:7 but he chose to write it a different way which should at least suggest that it could mean something different than 3 and a 1/2 times. The twelve tribes mentioned in Revelation are not the original twelve tribes and also they include Levi, which was not originally counted as one of the twelve tribes. So, Jehovah writing it this way suggests that he means something different than the "actual" twelve tribes. What he does actually mean is for us to figure out.
At sunset today it will be the antitypical fulfillment of the 30 of mourning on the plains of Moab. Just before the Israelites assembled before the river Jordan, waiting to enter into the promised land. Wait for the call, and don't miss it. Your deliverance is near.
And who is that individual, Gordon Ritchie? The same guy who says the rider of the white horse in Rev is speaking of himself? The same guy that claims he won an Olympic gold metal, but can't remember for what, and doesn't like to talk about it? The same guy that says a gas station fire in Texas is a sign of prophetic fulfillment? The same guy that has presented hundreds and hundreds of false prophecies, with not a one coming true? Frank, I've read his sight many times, and it's all personal interpretation, with absolutely no concern for scriptural continuity. You will just never see that will you? Just another example of Gordon Richie having absolutely no regard for scriptural continuity, but instead applying ones own understandings to text. Frank, it's really tiresome... Rev 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days." Rev 12:14 "But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent." Dan 12:7 "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time."
Joshua, tell me that it actually says half a time in Daniel 12, or if you and most others simply add that detail in there without any justification as a "personal" observation.
Just a few chapters before in Daniel 7 verse 25 Jehovah actually says time, times and the dividing (or halfing) of a time. If he used this expression in Daniel 7:25 we can assume that he meant three and a half times. But, as in Daniel 12:7 he leaves out the qualifying term "dividing of" then we should assume that he means something other than three and a half times. If he meant three and a half times he would have presented it that way. You can't just change the Word of God to suite your theology, or just because that "interpretation" fits. He had it recorded that way for a purpose and it is just "lazy" to interpret it that way. Explain to me why Jehovah would have it recorded that way in 12:7 but a completely different way in 7:25?
Frank, we've had this discussion before, and I will never, ever, ever, ever in a million billion years agree with you, so there is no reason to continue to tell me Jehovah didn't mean three and a half times at Dan 12:7. It's past sunset Frank and I'm still here, I haven't heard any call, no deliverance you've promised once again.... Just another failure from the failure that is Gordon Richie. Please at least spare me...
I am still reading your comments here. So, I am giving answer to part of your post which I enjoyed and got me to thinking of an answer to literal and metaphor/signs. A word for those who wish to respond to this subject matter. Let us not get sidetracked and off subject. This is about what is literal or metaphoric in the prophesy of Revelation. Give scriptural proofs. If you give a particular view of someone else’s teaching, state it and provide the scripture to back it up. If you cannot back it up with scripture, stay silent. There are important messages written for us to gain understanding about prophecies and their interpretation. “Then the cupbearer and the baker for the king of Egypt, who were confined in jail, both had a dream the same night, each man with his own dream and each dream with its own interpretation.” ( Gen 40:5 NASB ) “Then they said to him, ‘We have had a dream and there is no one to interpret it.’ Then Joseph said to them, ‘Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell it to me, please.’” ( Gen 40:8 NASB ) “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” ( 2 Pet 1:20-21 NASB ) “For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.” ( 2 Pet 1:20-21 NWT ) “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” ( 2 Pet 1:10-21 KJV ) That scripture written by Peter is translated in several different words which can cause confusion about it’s meaning. Here is a comment by Burton Coffman. “Unfortunately, this verse has been made the basis of the Medieval Church's denial of every man's right to interpret the Scriptures, and their claim to the right of interpretation for the church alone (that is, their church alone). Nothing like this could possibly be in this passage. As Kelcy said, ‘There are many New Testament passages which indicate that the writers expected their readers to understand what they wrote (Ephesians 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:27; 1 John 2:12,13).’ Christ himself bore witness of the fact that every man is responsible for studying and reading the word of God for himself, when he demanded of the lawyer, ‘What is written in the law? How readest thou?’ (Luke 10:26). In the light of these Scriptures, therefore, we must reject the notion that would find in this place an excuse for any man's leaving the interpretation of the Scriptures to the religious experts in some church, of whatever name. After all, it was the ‘religious experts’ who crucified Christ in the beginning, demonstrating once and finally that of all the people on earth most likely to miss it, it is the ‘religious experts.’ There is a better translation of this verse, as noted by some of the older scholars generations ago. Macknight rendered it, ‘No prophecy of Scripture is of the prophet’s own invention.’ This rendition Macknight justified on the basis of the meaning of the subsequent verse, showing that a number of other New Testament passages have been similarly translated with reference to the context and not to the strict technical meaning of a word. Barnes also rendered the passage, ‘No prophecy was of their own disclosure.’ The ‘private interpretation’ is therefore a limitation, not upon readers of the prophecies, but upon the prophets who delivered God’s message. Barnes further explained: The truths which the prophets communicated were not originated by themselves; were not of their own suggestion or invention, but were of higher origin and were imparted by God. The ancient prophets of God were not permitted to give their interpretation of prophecies (instead of the prophecies); but they were to deliver the words of the prophecy as the Lord had given them. It is to this limitation that the words of this verse most likely apply. Vine’s dictionary of New Testament words confirms this thus: ‘The writers of Scripture did not put their own construction upon the ‘God-breathed’ words they wrote.’ Plummer pointed out that there is almost certainly a reference here to 1 Pet. 1:10-12; and this also sheds light on the meaning; for in that passage also, it was the inability of the prophets to go beyond the ‘words’ God had given them that is in view.” (Burton Coffman Commentary - 1 Peter 1:20) Actually, the Bible interprets itself. IE: “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, ‘Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,’” From this one scripture, we can determine that there are seven “literal” angels. How? It separates one, out of seven, one who spoke separately with John. This also separates “one bowl”, out of the “seven bowls”. It also mentions the “many waters”. (Rev 17:1) Then, in verse 15, the angel interprets the meaning of the “many waters”. “And he said to me, ‘The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.’” (Rev 17:15) No interpretation needed. Remember, the angel asked John if he understood what he was seeing. “So the angel said to me: ‘Why is it that you were amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns:” (Rev 17:7 NWT) Now, some will be confused about the “waters” and where she sits, because it says she was “sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast. . .” (Rev 17:3) I will cover that later. It takes me a while to post, because I prefer my privacy settings which are not compatible. When I post, all of my word processing program’s settings do not translate as set. I have to re-italicize, underline, and bold the sentences.
Amen brother, it does not belong to us to interpret, let alone the so called establish religious leaders. Absolutely, I so wish more people understood this. Amen... Here here... There is no better statement then I could have made, and I wish more people understood. Everyone always wants to apply their own understanding, and interpretation to what the text says, but what they don't realize is there is nothing in the text that will not explain itself, if of course it is needed for us to understand. Although I must say I as of yet haven't found anything in scripture that cannot be directly explained of itself. It is the moment men inter their own understandings that separate them from Jehovah's true intentions in scripture. Thank you for that brother, I hadn't noticed that one, probably because I understood the rule of law as too numbers and didn't continue exploring each one, thanks for that one I had not noticed... I like where this is going! lol... Do continue... Ah yes, the waters that feed Babylon, that women, the great harlot who will be buried in Shinar where she came from. (Zech 5) Let me take a wild guess brother, scarlet color beast = peoples and nations?
That's the difference between Gordon and most others. He's not afraid to fail. A wise person once said "if you are ever going to succeed greatly, you have to be first willing to fail greatly". Understanding prophecy is not like receiving prophecy from Jehovah to speak out or write down or both. No, understanding prophecy takes a person or person's that are willing to "keep on asking" and "keep on seeking" and "keep on knocking" when every other time you have done so you "have not been told", "you have not found" and the "door has not been opened". That's what Jehovah wants his people to do. That's what Jesus admonished us all to do. To understand his word deeply and to be willing to put your name and reputation on the line and not fear the taunts of mankind, most of which have long ago given up "knocking" or "seeking" or "asking". But the great thing is, no one is obligated to do any of this. All you really have to do is wait till Jesus gives the word and then follow his voice. Also, there is really no great acclaim for a person even if after 550 attempts at nailing down the day and the hour when Jesus will come by way of his wife, his flesh. No, the glory all goes to Jehovah and his Son. To Jehovah goes the glory because even before he had his prophets write down the words of 1 Kings 18 more than 3000 years ago he already knew that it would take a strong willed and highly imperfect man, or small group of devoted imperfect men nearly 551 tries to nail it down. I know you laugh. And rightly you should. It's not very worthy of praise to do such a thing, for a man devoted to God. Think about it Joshua. When Gordon started this quest, he was confident that Jehovah would show him the answer in perhaps a few or at the most a dozen or so tries. But it would take a lot more faith than a dozen failures. As you have pointed out very well it took a laughable amount. But it is not Gordon that is praise worthy anyway, even if he does succeed, it is Jehovah, as he proved beyond all reasonable doubt that he knew how many attempts that it would take from the very beginning. There were 450 prophets of Baal there on that day and 100 prophets of Jehovah that Obadiah separated into two groups of 50 and hid them in their respective caves. That works out to 550 prophets, a prophet for a wrong guess, a "false prophetic interpretation" if you must. You will come to know Gordon some day and I dare to think you will like him. He is totally devoted to serving God and has become (as he was not always this way) one of the most humble and loving persons that I have met up to this point in my life, including brothers I have known with Jehovah's Witnesses that I still treasure even though they now shun me. He doesn't really care what you or anyone else thinks of him at this point in time. His only goal is to please God and succeed in the job that he has received from God and Christ. It's a similar attitude that I have seen you express. I know your goals in serving God are lofty and I wish you every good wish in accomplishing even a small portion of them in this system of things. We have an advantage as Christians that have true faith in Jesus Christ and the ransom that he has given along with all the others in Bible History that have laid down their lives for their brothers. When we sin or make mistakes, we are forgiven by God each time as long as we repent, due to that ransom sacrifice. So, it does not matter how many mistakes we make. We pick ourselves up, we dust ourselves off, we say a heart felt prayer to Jehovah seeking his forgiveness and we are instantly forgiven. We don't have to take any kind of offering to any temple to give to any priest etc., etc; No, Jesus sacrifice is for all time and for every sin except for sinning against the Holy Spirit. 'You go on mocking, and taunting if you like. It doesn;t hurt even a little bit. But I would rather that you cheer us on and hope for our victory because really your victory is ours and ours is yours since we are all worshiping the same two God's. We understand God's Word somewhat differently now, but that is to be expected. In a short time we will all be taught by the Holy Spirit exactly the true meaning of the scriptures and we will be amazed at how little we got correct and even more amazed at how accurate Jehovah was in telling the end from the beginning. Some day soon, I dare say, we will look back on this time and we will laugh at how truly immature we were as Christians and as Sons of God. We are truly a sad bunch. But Jehovah loves us all and he is prepared to forgive us as many times as we are repentant, because we are his children. Good wishes to you and everyone else who reads this board. We don't have very long to wait at all. Buckle up your chin strap (that's an American Football term for the device that holds your protective helmet on for you soccer (futbal) fans. The ride is about to get a little rough but fear not, no matter how fearful things may become. We will be victorious! We will succeed! Simply keep your faith strong and your love even stronger. "For the greatest of these is Love". 1 Cor. 13:13. Surely, there will come a time when we all agree on all the important things. Obviously, that time is not now, but it will come sooner than you think. Frank
You know Frank, this is completely against Tsaphahs request, and I would be surprised if you even read it, because he asked us to stay on subject, but this so completely bonkers it deserves a response. I happen to think you are completely wrong. I think he needs a new job. If I took my car to someone and they failed to fix it 550 times, that's not just incompetent, that's down right insane. It's a possibility we are talking about clinical insanity here. Gordon Richie doesn't understand Gods word at all, his record has shown that hundreds and hundreds of times as he continues to claim he missed something in scripture, but that now he knows, and understands by his previous failure! But your to blind to see that. No great acclaim, are you insane as well Frank? That is not something that one states as an accomplishment! That is failure after failure, and shows nothing but a false prophet. That's right Frank, it'll be the next one... It's always the next one... This is really to stupid to even talk about. God hasn't given Gordon one single prophetic fulfillment proof. Which means that absolutely everything on his website is a lie, because not one bit of it has come true, or been proven, but you refuse to see that, and so will he, because I'm sure he reads this, but it wont change a thing, he is so blinded by his own failures to recognize his failures are the problem, not the answer. And rightfully so, I'm sure he is a wonderful individual who loves God, but if you are going to discuss prophecy with me, and bring up a man who claims to be a prophet, the very rider of the white horse of Rev 6, then you better believe I'm going to speak up, I happen to take prophecy in scripture very seriously. You see, there are some in the world who actually do have responsibilities before Jehovah. He hasn't succeeded once, that means every single word on his page is invalid, absolutely all of it is rubbish. Now see, that's the brother I'm trying to reach in you Frank, that sensible one, and I know your in there. It's just that I think you would rather go down with the ship then to give up hope that Gordon Richie is anything other then a false prophet prophesied for sure to appear in the end, but not in the manner you had hoped. Mth 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones." Just think Frank, that's all I'm asking. Think for just a moment that maybe, just maybe he has deceived himself. Who knows, maybe you could help him, because really, what is his state of mind going to be when the end really does begin, and he did not see it coming at all, and has no idea whats going on? I worry about you too, all the time Frank. I think of you occasionally, and what your state of mind would be if the end begins in a manner you had not seen coming, and you see Gordon Richie lost... As far as you are concerned, I respect you. I don't speak to people I don't respect and most certainly wouldn't continue to write, so understand, I may be harsh, but sometimes a pat on the back isn't what is needed, its a kick in the shorts.
Yes, you’ve got it. Although the beast that comes out of the sea, in Rev 13, is described as being like a leopard, bear, and lion, it has ten heads and seven horns. And, one of it’s heads has a wound as if slain, but is healed. The scarlet colored beast that the harlot rides has “ten heads and seven horns” (Rev 17:3) This is the same beast that came out of the sea. Even though it is like “a leopard, bear, and lion”, it is scarlet in color which represents royalty, and those who rule the earth. She “committed acts of immorality”, with “the kings of the earth”. (Rev 17:2) The color scarlet/red was an expensive dye that was difficult to obtain and process. Here is where understanding comes in. The beast from the sea is “. . . given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.” (Rev 13:7) This beast represents all the political systems/governments of man. There are some who have identified the harlot as the Catholic Church of Rome. “And he said to me, ‘The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.’” (Rev 17:15-18) So brother, you have seen the same things I see. Once you discover the pattern and the rules, everything falls into place. But, as I have said before, prophesies will not be understood fully, until they are fulfilled. Any attempt to interpret them now, is fruitless. Even the prophets who wrote Jehovah’s messages and visions did not understand them. The wrote what they were told to write, even though they didn’t understand. Here is likely the first and foremost metaphor: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” ( Gen 2:24 NASB ) Quoted by Jesus at Mt 19:5, Mk 10:8,) Referenced by Paul to the Corinthians, and Ephesians. (1 Co 6:16, Eph 5:31) Also, “. . .then we will give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters for ourselves, and we will live with you and become one people.”( Gen 34:16 NASB ) And, “it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,” ( Acts 15:25 NASB )
If you casually read verse 7 of Chapter 13 of Revelation it is very easy to assume that it is saying that the beast will "conquer" the saints. But a closer read discloses that it does not say that at all. What it says is that it (authority and support) was given to the beast "to" conquer the saints, but it never actually says that the Saints would actually be conquered. They will not. They will attempt to but the Saints are part of the "great crowd" that comes out of the Great Tribulation. They come to be "out" of the Great Tribulation because the Angels are "harvesting" them. It is not to say that individuals will not feal the brunt of the power and authority and hate of the Beast, to act as a witness to the natiions, but the majority will not be conquered but will be "saved" by the Angels of God. Besides, they will be very busy fighting with each other as the faithful and loving are extracted from the earth before it is sanitized by the heat promised at 2 Peter 3:7 and I think they will probably destroy themselves.