Nice brother, I had not noticed that, thank you...

Do you think it possible that since the beast in Rev 13 comes from the sea, and isn't shown wearing the scarlet till Rev 17 that perhaps the abyssing of the beast is after the coming out of the sea? Many people connect the abyssing with the death stroke to one of it's heads, but why, I have argued with them over and over, and no one ever seems to see past that.

You know as I do, one must look at all angles, not allowing an idea to stump us from other view points that could be the right path, because that's what scripture is, a path, and it's our job to walk on the correct stones in order to move forward.

I have argued that only one head of the Beast in 13 had a death stroke and healed, while the entire beast goes into the abyss in 17.

Obviously the sea and abyss themselves are separate places.

There is only one nation in Revelation that had previously existed that is mentioned alive again, Babylon. Is it too much of a stretch to at least consider that death stroke that healed could be that city?

I don't know if you have read my chronology on my page Joshuastone7.com, but I have argued that the nations could not have gone into the abyss till after they came against the holy ones. Which would mean that coming against the holy ones occurs in between the death stroke, and the abyssing.

In Dan 7:11,12 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season."

You see, the other beasts of the lion, bear and leopard give up their rulerships after the abyssing of the fierce beast in Dan 7, mirroring Rev 17:17; "For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."

So if we recognize the time and season their lives are prolonged are the time period rule of Dan 12, Rev 12 of times, then you have 360+90, for Gen 8:22 denotes four seasons in a year, therefore a season would be a fourth of 360, then we get 450 days those beasts rule with the beast from the abyss.

This means it could not be from the abyss when it comes against the holy ones at the beginning of the 1260 days, because the day count does not allow it, if the abyssing occurs 450 days before their last day. Therefore the coming from the sea, with a single head healed cannot be the entire beast going in and out of the abyss in Rev 17.

We also have Dan 11:31 when the holy ones are attacked, but the final battle between north and south when north finally wins isn't till verse 40, again indicating the king of the north comes against the holy ones before the final battle and the rise of the final king.

I'm not sure why everyone is so animate that the healed death stroke from the sea is the abyssing, because if it isn't, it simply isn't. As you have mentioned, it's not our understanding or interpretation, we want to know what it actually says. We want to know the actual steps, our own understanding is irrelevant, and that means putting aside our own understandings at all times, allowing scripture only to explain itself...

You know, I've thought about this recently. I'm not so sure that is the case. Let's say something happens, like the Watchtower comes down. How many people could open the Bible, and point to the prophecy being fulfilled in the text? How many even in our company? In fact, I believe just about everyone here believes that will occur, but I don't believe anyone agrees to where that can be found.

Think about this, E-MC2. When you see that, you understand what it means, energy equals mass times the speed of light squared, okay, but now explain how he got there. You see it appears the Bible is no different. I have come to understand that the only thing the world is going to understand when that time comes is a very short abbreviation, an equation that simplifies all that is in prophecy.

Think about it, even if an angel came down and told someone all about what was going to happen, could that person then go through scripture and understand the journey through it, and how to understand the path to get there? No way... The only way someone would be able to understand the path in scripture is to have spent years walking that path, taking wrong turns, but yet finding the correct one. And not even fulfillment of prophecy would allow people to understand what the text says... No one would ever agree on placing the events to the text after they have occurred, and I don't believe they are all there simply to be able to go back after the events and say, "Well yea, they were all in there." That's not how Jehovah has worked, he has sent his prophets ahead of him. (Amos 3:7)

That's why through my journey in the text I have noticed that prophecy can indeed be condensed into a very short and understandable equation that can be presented in such a way that once events do begin to unfold, one only needs glance at the equation and say, "there it is, everything is happening just as the Bible says." Do people need to understand what we have spent most of our lives working on? They wont, most couldn't even approach where we are, because of ability. And that's not being facetious, how many could study how Einstein reached his equations? But in the end, it doesn't matter, because the equation itself is what is presented to the world in order to sum up the whole.

It can be argued they did not understand it, because it was not for them too.

Dan 8:26 "What was said in the vision about the evenings and the mornings is true, but you must keep the vision secret, for it refers to a time many days from now."

It wasn't their work to uncover these things, their work was to record it. But can you say that also excludes another uncovering them in the right time? Keep in mind that Christs brothers were chosen from the founding of the world, all the way back at the first prophecy when Jehovah presented the means by which all these things would play out, including the sacred secret. Therefore the word was written in such a way that it would not be uncovered until the time it was to be. In fact, since Christs brothers were chosen before they were born, it's quite likely the text was written with certain people in mind and how they would travel the path in scripture to uncover prophecy in order to be prepared for when that time comes.

Again, we don't want our understanding, at all, by any means. What we want is his will, his truth, and his kingdom to come. But along with that we want to make sure that we take care of our responsibilities before him. Now if that's simply vacuuming the floors at a Hall, so be it, but if it is to look after his courtyards, we must humbly care for our responsibilities before him. Not that I think any of us are chosen yet for any certain work in the time of the end, but we should be prepared if that time comes and we are called upon to do so.

My thoughts anyway.

With all esteem through our lord Christ Jesus brother...

 

Here is the problem with this reasoning, in my opinion:

IF you agree that the 7 heads are empires over time, then necessarily the previous 6 heads are already gone at the death-stroke AND the abyssing. Therefore, no need to account for the 6 heads, since they have "fallen" by the time of the death-stroke and abyss.

It's the same concept as the statue. Yes, it's one statue; one "system" from Jehovah's perspective.

But each element exists independently of the other. When the statue is struck by the rock, it destroys the head as well.

Yet the head won't exist at that time. (or chest-arms-waist)

[still, those 'heads' are visible as attributes of the wild beast]

ONE of the heads being wounded is a moment in time when the other 6 heads no longer exist; so the "beast" is a system, a particularly derived system, being expressed in time through 7 heads.

The death-stroke happens to one head in a moment of time.

The abyssing happens to one head in a moment of time, represented by the whole beast.

Exact same concept as the statue being struck by the rock.

(concept, NOT event)

 

Excellent thought!

 

See, I can offer you another line of thought.

Dan 2 seems to be very clear that when the stone strikes the image it strikes all of the elements.

Dan 2:35 "At that time the iron, the clay, the copper, the silver, and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor,"

It seems to indicate that clearly all of the elements are present when the stone strikes it, as well all the beasts seem to be present in the beast in Rev 13. To me the idea that they do not exist in the time of the end, because they have come and gone is answered in the prophecies themselves, and tells us that these elements are clearly present in the time of the end, just as the text tells us. This of course is where the complexity comes in, but in short let me explain.

The image in Dan 2 can be a map, and as well the beasts in Dan 7. Each beast had a previous fulfillment, and a future as a whole, meaning that in fact all of the beasts are alive and present in the end, all of the elements are standing in the statue in the end. The lion of Babylon is on top of the image as the head and mouth of the first beast in Rev 13.

Ultimately the proof is in the text, but this is an abbreviated version. Link to the map: Joshuastone7

 

This also means that Greece, Persia and pre-Europe Rome will resurrect and be present as well right?

The silver, copper and iron.

So if:

Gold = Babylon -> Catholic Church

What is Silver / Copper / Iron?

I suppose in this framework, Iron and Iron + clay would be Europe (iron) + Catholicism (clay)?

Why is the clay also the head of gold?

 

Not resurrected per-say, only one is resurrected (Babylon), but modern fulfillment through the battle between north and south in Rev 11.

The king of the north, mixed with the women from Shinar. (Zech 5)

I could say socialism for the KOTN, but then I would have to go through history to tell you why. Then to narrow down an exact entity might be a step into interpretation, at which stage we reach the point I am at in research regarding that specific subject.

Because it is the death stroke that was healed. The clay is the reborn head.

Babylon is alive in the end, and she is the head of gold, and the lion (which is another subject, but I can offer direct connection).

The clay are the people;

Dan 2:43 "Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people;"

Whom the women is sitting upon;

Rev 17:15 "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

I could discuss the similarities between Dan 4 and Gen 11, but we've discussed that before. But that's getting way to deep and outside our discussion here, so let's leave that for another time.

Suffice it to say I'm trying to keep the information as straightforward as possible, so ask for more detail if your not sure where I'm coming from.

Good question, and that is all tied into the beasts in Dan 7, the battle in Dan 8, and the progression of kingdoms in Dan 11. I don't really want to get into which entity is this or that, we start to get into interpretation at that point, and I've really been distancing myself from that. I prefer what can be proven in scripture and go from there. But we could discuss hypothetically if desired.

I can however offer the road map to get there. It's best to keep in mind that battle between north and south and the players in Dan 8, and how they coincide to 7 in order to determine characters in the end.

 

No, that's not what I say at all, that's what the Bible says.

Rev 17:5 "On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.”

Rev 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

I am sure your reasoning will not allow you to grasp this, from my association with you I will guess you think I mean the actual city of Babylon in Shinar will come up from the dust, such as Saddam rebuilding it, or Nebbi resurrected, but if you would actually study my posts, instead of just responding to subjects that you and Gordon Richie have interpreted, you might learn something. I always learn something when studying others approaches. You don't consider any other options, you simply respond back with your interpretations. Besides, I have stated many many times who the new Babylon is after it was resurrected from its death stroke...

If you truly understood what I said, you could tell me how I got there, and in fact offer any paradoxes, if you so think you could...

 

I think you mean 7 heads, and 10 horns.

Can't tell you how many times I've read these chapters and still have to reference the details

There are 3 horns that fall before the 11th horn:

"While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully." - Daniel 7:8

 

Well said - I believe you're absolutely right.

Here is what we need to do now, perhaps virtually just for fun:



Joshua, I was thinking, after reading this today:

"This is where it calls for wisdom:

Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number, and its number is 666"

Why write this if it's not for someone to figure out?

But I'm sick of reading long post after long post, book after book .. so I'm going to setup something peg board-like we can all contribute to somehow, and map this out collectively.

 

This one is an easy one brother...

Tsaphah brought it up too.

The mark of the beast cannot be taken by everyone in the world, it is a form of worship, in direct defiance to Jehovah.

Rev 13:17 "and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name."

Okay, so who's buying and selling? The merchants are selling only to those in Babylon;

Rev 18:11 "Also, the merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full cargo anymore,"

You see, once Babylon goes down there will be no one to buy, meaning you had to be within Babylon in order to buy. Since Rev 13:4 tells us these people worship the wild beast; "and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast." This means that the mark of the beast, and the number of it's name and the buying and selling is a form of worship. We are told once Babylon goes down there is no one to buy and sell and receive the mark of the beast, therefore Rev 13 and the mark of the beast was only present within Babylon.

What is that mark? It represents the failure to do Jehovah's will and should be referred to as the mark of Solomon.

1 Kinds 10:14 "And the weight of the gold that came to Solʹo·mon in one year amounted to 666 talents of gold,"

But Jehovah had warned Solomon not to go beyond his command;

De 17:16-18 "However, he should not acquire many horses for himself or make the people go back to Egypt in order to obtain more horses, since Jehovah told you, ‘You must never go back again by this way.’ Neither should he take many wives for himself, so that his heart may not go astray; nor should he acquire vast amounts of silver and gold for himself. When he takes his seat on the throne of his kingdom, he must write for himself in a book a copy of this Law, taken from the one kept by the Levitical priests."

Solomon became haughty and began to disobey Jehovah by taking on many wives and monetary gains, in defiance to Jehovah. That's right, the 666 mark represents the falling away from doing Jehovah's will, it represents the anti-Christ in opposition to the will of God. De 17 prohibits the king from multiplying horses and chariots, wives, and wealth. This is exactly what Solomon is doing in 1 Kings 10-11. Chapter ten begins by commending his great wisdom, but then steps through his decline - that is, he begins violating the rules for kings by multiplying gold (666 talents a year), multiplying horses and chariots, and finally multiplying wives who turn his heart away from following Jehovah. He sets up centers of false worship for all the foreign gods of his wives. So, the number 666 is associated with Solomon in his fall, his abuse of power, and his turning away from true worship.

Jesus tells us himself that this buying and selling is a symbol of worship;

Rev 3:18 "I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be exposed,"

So then we are admonished to purchase or buy from Christ Jesus the refined gold from him and not the beast, and this is the understanding of the buying and selling of Rev 13.

This goes right back to Dan 3 and Nebuchadnezzar. He set's up an image of pure gold 60x6x6 to be worshiped, in defiance to Jehovah himself.

All of this comes together in the name and number of the man - 666. This sums up man in his fallen state. The number carries with it the fallen glory of Solomon, his degraded wisdom, his failure to follow the word of God, his abuse of power, and his allowing himself to be turned aside to the worship of false gods.

In captivity to Babylon the Great in the time of the end during those 1260 days 2/3 of our current brothers and sisters will fall to the mark of the beast, while the 1/3 will be refined like fine gold from their lord Christ Jesus. (Zech 13:9)

Let's recap; Solomon, Adonikam, Rehoboam, all denoted with the 666 monogram. This seems to be a theme, an understanding of men falling away from doing the will of God.

So in this way, in Rev 13, if the buying and selling are metaphors, If the "slaves" are metaphors then why not the words "a mans number"? It was man who sinned against God before the flood, it was man who sinned against God at the tower of Babel. Mans will is what is in defiance to Gods will.

 

You may or may not have noticed what I see in Dan 12:11, so I will bring it up here again.

Dan 12: 11 “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days." (NWT)

I believe what this scripture is saying is the 1290 days are the time period between these two events of the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed. There are 1290 days between these events, and is probably the most important scripture in chronology to understand.

Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity."

Daniel 12:11 (CEV) | In Context|Whole Chapter

"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the Horrible Thing." that causes destruction."

Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up."

Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The ·daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be ·stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, A blasphemous object that brings destruction [L the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up."

Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."

What this tells us is that there is a coming against the chosen ones to conquer them (as you mention, but not yet to kill) to remove the constant feature, for it is not till 1290 days later do they turn on them to kill them.

 

Well in that case, I'm back to "wait and see" LOL

Thanks! I don't recall reading this explanation, but it makes sense.

 

I'm confused, which is happening a lot lately

So the "merchants" who became rich from BTG's shameless luxury is a direct correlation with the "buying and selling" required mark?

I'm not seeing the connection.

What is the purpose of the Mark in this view?

Isn't the mark going out to the whole world?

"It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves--that these should be marked"

I like the Solomon connection, it's interesting, but I'm not sure the 666 of Gold is enough to link the two. (still, an odd number to use)

 

Yes, her shameless luxury and riches are spiritual.

Now Rev 18:11 tells us that only those in Babylon can buy and sell, not the whole world.

Rev 18:11 "Also, the merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full cargo anymore,"

Now, I'm going to present my own personal opinion at this point in order to assist you with understanding. Since I believe the Holy See is Babylon the great, then the priests at the churches are the merchants, and the people are the parishioners who are purchasing there sermons.

Rev 3 tells us the buying and selling is worship;

Rev 3:18 "I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be exposed,"

You either buy gold from Christ Jesus, or you buy it from Babylon. It's the whole trumpets vs bowl again. Some will be refined by the fire of the trumpets, the others condemned by the bowls.

Zech 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire; And I will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name,"

This third part is the same exact third part mentioned in the trumpets.

So you see, since the merchants say that there is no one to buy and sell after Babylon falls it is because the buying and selling was only going on in Babylon. Since no one can buy and sell and receive the mark after Babylon falls then saying she puts under compulsion all people only applies to those within, not the whole world, because after Babylon falls there will still be people in the world. Besides if you buy refined gold from Christ Jesus instead, you most certainly will not be under the compulsion of that second beast of Rev 13. And since buying is religious worship then Babylon the great obviously is a religious entity. We already knew this though with her being a women, and the 666 being explained in Solomon confirms that the 666 represents the falling away, and failure to do Jehovah's will.

No, since the merchants say no one is left to buy and sell after Babylon comes down, that means only those buying and selling were in Babylon. The only people under her control are within her, that is "all people" in Rev 13.

Remember, Babylon is part of that first beast of Rev being the lion, and also part of the second beast. Since it appears Dan 7 is a 1:1 with Rev 13 that makes the second beast in Rev 13 the fourth beast and little horn of Dan 7. Meaning the little horn is the resurrected Babylon, the first and the seventh, the seventh being the healed deathstroke after it had been the first.

Now the waters of Babylon are all the people;

Rev 17:15 "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

Dan 2:43 "Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people;"

Therefore, those people she puts under compulsion are all those within who worship, both who worship God or false worship within her, including the holy ones who are sent into captivity by her, but only those that buy gold from Christ Jesus will be purchasing the correct merchandise, and will not receive the mark according to Revelation.