Babylon the Great - Solved

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Londoner, Sep 9, 2017.

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    Londoner

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay brother, don't mind my straight forwardness, it's needed in order to offer my opinion on your writing.

    It is my opinion that you made a wrong turn imagining Israel as the harlot. Clearly BTG comes against Israel in history and prophecy. You have a cannibalistic characteristic. Babylon has never been Israel or Jerusalem throughout history nor prophecy.

    "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." Mrk 13:24

    And on top of that, Jehovah saves Jerusalem and Israel, BTG is destroyed forever, and then you have a paradox describing a "real Jerusalem." More on that later...

    Then you say Jerusalem is trampled in Rev 11 being "tourists", do you know why it discusses the "courtyard"? It discusses the sanctuary, and it is only the courtyard that is trampled, not the temple. Do you know why? Do you know what the sanctuary tools represent, they are all metaphoric are they not?

    It's also my belief you miss the importance of the sheet in the vision of Peter, and Cornelius baptism, an Italian. Your looking for physical places like "Tel Arad" when Jerusalem/Israel/Jews became a metaphor once Cornelius was baptized, nullifying every understanding you have of prophecy from that point on, I might suggest a complete reset. In my opinion of course...

    Forget all of that for a second. Londoner, one of the heads of Rev 13 has a death stroke healed, meaning one of the past nations comes back to life. So what is the one nation mentioned in Rev being spoken of as alive after we know it was destroyed? Rev only mentions one nation by name that was once destroyed but being alive in the end. Which is it?

    Do you know the connection of the mark of the beast with Solomon and his apostasy? Search "Solomon and 666."

    Do you know what the buying and selling means in Rev 13? Did not our Lord tell you in chapter 3 that the buying and selling is spiritual?

    "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich;" Rev 3:18

    You have a paradox where you say the harlot is Jerusalem that goes down, even though it's not the real Jerusalem that lies somewhere else.

    I appreciate your research and work, but I might offer my impression, or suggestion, the confidence shows through your writing. I've struggled with that as well over time, and I have tried to greatly back off from that and instead offer "In my opinion". The reason being is, when you discover your wrong, you tend to not be looked at in the greatest light. Take Gordon Ritchie as an example, he predicts disaster every day, and fails every day. Back in the day he would have been put to death the first time...

    Anyway, more importantly I appreciate you contributing here...
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Just wanted to say that I appreciate the research, the work and the time that is put into the contributions on the forum.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Londoner, I would also like to direct your attention to Zech ch5. The women put into the ephah container is Babylon the Great, and she is buried back where she originated from in Shinar, the original location of Babel. So unless you are prepared to say that the original Babel was Jerusalem, this also creates a paradox in your understanding.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    There is an assumption here though: the Bible is referencing physical locations.

    When Israel went into captivity she never fully left spiritually -- this is why many Jews today use the "Babylonian Talmud" as a mechanism of blindness.

    The "prostitute" of the nations was almost always Israel in the OT.

    Londoner's framework is legitimate, as much as any other reasonable framework, I think.

    We'll see -- but Israel, the nation, is on the short-list for BTG in my opinion
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I might add that when Israel went into captivity it was to Babylon. So, in no way was Israel Babylon ever in history. If we don't follow history, are we not chasing after the wind?

    Regardless, the premise of my response to Londoner was that one is a Jew who is one on the inside, not outwardly, therefore Israel today is a metaphor, and goes into captivity spiritually. It is my contention that Israel cannot go into captivity into Israel.

    It's Babylon that speaks against Israel, and again you cannot have such a paradox to think they are one and the same.

    We know there have been many prostitutes, but only one mother of them.

    Rev 17:5 "On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes."

    Israel had begun prostituting itself to foreign gods, and nations however, clearly there have been more then one.

    When we are talking about Zechariah chapter 5 and the location of Shinar, is it your contention that the chapter doesn't speak of the original location of physical Babylon? It seems to me the mentioning of Shinar is to indicate who the women is...

    Gen 11:2 "As they traveled eastward, they discovered a valley plain in the land of Shi′nar, and they began dwelling there. Then they said to one another: Come! Let us make bricks and bake them with fire. So they used bricks instead of stone, and bitumen as mortar. They now said: Come! Let us build a city for ourselves and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the entire face of the earth."
     
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    Jan

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    According to my research the description of Babylon the Great in Revelation 17 and 18 fit New York in our time.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey Jan,

    Do you have any revisions, or secondary chronology if nothing happens next week?
     
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    Jan

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    Joshua, not yet. But this extremely serious situation between US and North Korea gives me lot of hope that Revelation 12 is taking place now.

    3 Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon,+ with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems;*4 and its tail drags a third of the stars+ of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth.+ And the dragon kept standing before the woman+ who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.

    Interesting that Satan here is said to hurl down a third of the stars (his demons) to earth in expectation of the birth of the son. And that should happen September 23 2017, that is next Saturday because then happens this asronomical alignment described in verses 1 and 2.
    Really it looks like the demons are heavily involved now. The threats on both sides are just horrific. Seems they have gone mad.
     
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    Londoner

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    Thank you, Wallflower. You're welcome. :cool:

    Londoner
     
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    SingleCell

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    Agreed -- "she" might be "the great" though. "Babylon the Great" isn't an extension out of Arabia which correlates with Nebuchadnezzar's empire, but a spiritual condition through which all the nations are affected. For this framework, Israel brought the spirit of Babylon with her after 70 years (and she did, Biblically, and historically)

    Just like the "original" she is a nation and a spiritual system which influences all the nations, and happens to be an "adulteress" - yet against who?

    Israel:

    - 1/2 of Jehovah's broken twig trapped within her, see Ezekiel 37 [Talmudic Judaism and rejecting Jesus] (Cain, Lot, Ishmael, Esau)
    - a kingdom over the kings of the earth
    - a prostitute
    - gave birth to daughters (see Judaism's influence in Europe and on the "church" system - and this started early, which is why Galatians is dedicated to the topic)
    - selling "spiritual" goods which are polluting the earth
    - the impetus to be turned on and destroyed by the nations
    - centerpiece in global politics
    - has a large portion of Christendom convinced that "she" will rebuild a "third temple"

    "And so upon you (Jerusalem) will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth" - Matthew 23:35

    But before that final judgment, Jehovah restores a portion to the truth, read Zechariah 12 and Romans 11 -- at the very least, it does work interpretatively.

    Of course, all purely speculation based on many assumptions, so the goal is to identify assumptions and either allow them or dismiss the framework; The Catholic Church can similarly be strongly correlated, but not quite as precisely considering how well Israel "fits".

    (the USA matches quite a few attributes as well)
     
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    Londoner

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    Hi Joshuastone7

    My reply is in dark blue.

    "Okay brother, don't mind my straight forwardness, it's needed in order to offer my opinion on your writing.

    It is my opinion that you made a wrong turn imagining Israel as the harlot. Clearly BTG comes against Israel in history and prophecy. You have a cannibalistic characteristic. Babylon has never been Israel or Jerusalem throughout history nor prophecy.

    "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." Mrk 13:24"

    L: It is not my imagination that Israel is called a harlot/prostitute. I've shown in the essay that there are numerous scriptures calling Jerusalem/Israel a prostitute. Did you read the scriptures? The original Babylon going against Israel does not prevent Jerusalem from being BTG. Jerusalem is BTG because she exhibits the same characteristics as her conqueror, Babylon.

    "And on top of that, Jehovah saves Jerusalem and Israel, BTG is destroyed forever, and then you have a paradox describing a "real Jerusalem." More on that later...

    Then you say Jerusalem is trampled in Rev 11 being "tourists", do you know why it discusses the "courtyard"? It discusses the sanctuary, and it is only the courtyard that is trampled, not the temple. Do you know why? Do you know what the sanctuary tools represent, they are all metaphoric are they not?"

    L: You're getting confused. I didn't say Jerusalem was trampled in Rev 11. I quoted Jesus saying that Jerusalem will be trampled on until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. I only quoted Rev 11:8 where John identified the Great City as being where the Lord of the Two Witnesses were impaled - that is Jerusalem.

    "It's also my belief you miss the importance of the sheet in the vision of Peter, and Cornelius baptism, an Italian. Your looking for physical places like "Tel Arad" when Jerusalem/Israel/Jews became a metaphor once Cornelius was baptized, nullifying every understanding you have of prophecy from that point on, I might suggest a complete reset. In my opinion of course..."

    L: I haven't missed the importance of Peter's vision. You and everyone believing the non-biblical "Spiritual Israel" theory have completely misread and rewritten the scriptures and prophecies into a "spiritual" fulfilment, even though the bible warns explicitly "Do not go beyond what is written". I have a different viewpoint to yours regarding Peter's vision as shown earlier this year with my The New Covenant - Solved, essay.

    Briefly, the bible clearly and simply says that there are only two parties in the New Covenant - The House of Israel and the House of Judah. The same parties who were in the former covenant only. Jere 31:31,32 -

    “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

    Only the House of Israel and the House of Judah were parties to the New Covenant. No other parties is mentioned. It replaced the former covenant that only the Nation of Israel were party to. Their forefathers broke the Old Covenant and God replaced it with the New Covenant which was to be written in their hearts, rather than stone. Cornelius was a Jew serving in the army of the Italian band. He was from the House of Israel. If he was an Italian, he could not claim that his forefathers were in the former covenant. Peter specifically said that Cornelius was from the House of Israel. Acts 10: 34-36 –

    At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial,35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ: this One is Lord of all [others].

    Cornelius was a son of Israel, a descendant of Jews that were exiled among the nations.


    "Forget all of that for a second. Londoner, one of the heads of Rev 13 has a death stroke healed, meaning one of the past nations comes back to life. So what is the one nation mentioned in Rev being spoken of as alive after we know it was destroyed? Rev only mentions one nation by name that was once destroyed but being alive in the end. Which is it?

    Do you know the connection of the mark of the beast with Solomon and his apostasy? Search "Solomon and 666."

    Do you know what the buying and selling means in Rev 13? Did not our Lord tel


    l you in chapter 3 that the buying and selling is spiritual?

    "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich;" Rev 3:18"

    L: The essay is about BTG, not the scarlet coloured wild beast. That would be a completely separate essay as I explained in the BTG essay.

    You have a paradox where you say the harlot is Jerusalem that goes down, even though it's not the real Jerusalem that lies somewhere else.

    L: Jesus said that Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations, or lie desolate until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. Modern-day Jerusalem is not being trampled on, but the real Jerusalem is, by the nations who are walking on its ruins. The NWO knows that Modern-day Jerusalem is fake, but has to go along with the façade of destroying it in order to assert their authority as the only rulership of the world.

    I appreciate your research and work, but I might offer my impression, or suggestion, the confidence shows through your writing. I've struggled with that as well over time, and I have tried to greatly back off from that and instead offer "In my opinion". The reason being is, when you discover your wrong, you tend to not be looked at in the greatest light. Take Gordon Ritchie as an example, he predicts disaster every day, and fails every day. Back in the day he would have been put to death the first time...

    L: If you do not have confidence in what you are writing, there is no point in presenting it. Of course it is an opinion. This is a forum, or the old school "discussion board". Discussion being the operative word. There's no need to keep repeating "IMO". I haven't claimed that I am an inspired prophet, and that Jehovah sent an angel to tell me the things I must say to those who would listen to me on the internet.

    You exhibit a great confidence in your understanding, bordering on E-Watchman-like arrogance, sometimes. For instance, above you said:

    "Then you say Jerusalem is trampled in Rev 11 being "tourists", do you know why it discusses the "courtyard"? It discusses the sanctuary, and it is only the courtyard that is trampled, not the temple. Do you know why? Do you know what the sanctuary tools represent, they are all metaphoric are they not?"

    This is how Robert speaks when he believes he is absolutely right in an understanding. The questions imply that if you don't have the same understanding, you do not know what you are talking about.

    Please allow me also to be confident in my understanding until someone can proof scripturally that I am wrong.

    Anyway, more importantly I appreciate you contributing here

    L: You're welcome, Joshuastone7!

    Londoner
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one... ;)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me ask you brother, the death stroke of one of the heads on the beast from the sea, can we determine which nation that is/was? Does Revelation mention a previous nation (by name) that was destroyed, but yet alive in the end?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    From the text alone, I don't think so!

    (with an assumption that this is a future "identifying" moment/event)

    All nations prior to current have had various death-stroke events, some are still here, some aren't.

    Let me think about that, we do have the "leopard", "bear", "lion" which connects us up with Daniel.

    But specific names? I can't recall a verse, if you know please share!

    Is the framework behind your question that "Babylon the Great" could be the death-stroked head which comes back?

    Doesn't Rev 17 make that impossible, since "she" sits on top of the 7-headed beast, and is distinct from them?

    "This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings"

    - Revelation 17:9-10

    Do we keep with the WT 7-heads are nations linearly over time?

    Do we assume that since Rev 13 includes the "10-horns" that this is a future emerging beast?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

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    Is not Babylon mentioned alive by name, after we know it was destroyed?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I might also ask (just to clarify a little further), who does the head of gold represent in Dan 2? Who does the lion represent in Dan 7, and who does the lion represent in Rev 13? Do you notice it is the mouth that is the lion, the one speaking?
     
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    SingleCell

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    Yes, but because "she" is not one of the 7-heads, it's irrelevant.

    "She" is riding on top of the nations, including the death-stroked but present "head".


    Babylon, certainly.

    But there is a logic/assumption problem if we're going to ascribe "Babylon" as the Lion's mouth speaking as a resurrected head, and not ascribe the same "resurrection" to Persia (Bear) and Leopard (Greece), as all three are present in the "Wild Beast".

    In my estimation, this "amalgamation" denotes a connection with Daniel 7/8 by-way of where this Wild Beast will rise from - namely, the "Western European" system generated by Babylon->Persia->Greece->Rome.

    These are the primary ruling systems which mutated into our current environment.

    So many assumptions though :)

    The only component I'm relatively certain of is whichever nation-state system that turns on Christians and tramples us down is the Wild Beast hahaha
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

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    Okay brother, let me present a couple trains of thought.

    Firstly, is not BTG a nation, and one in fact holding power over all others?

    Rev 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

    So with that said, does it seem reasonable that this nation would not be one of the 7? It seems to me to be a prominent head of Satan's organizational arrangement, so how could it not be one of the heads?

    So if you see a connection between Rev 13, Dan 8 and Dan 7, then how about Dan 2? If Dan 2 also corresponds to these chapters, and the head of gold is Babylon, and the lion is Babylon, can in not be said Babylon is riding atop the statue, and as well atop the beast in Rev 13?

    Is it a coincidence that the mouth of the beast in Rev 13 is the lion?

    The beast in Rev 13 is spoken of as having 7 heads, but only one mouth;

    Rev 13:2 "and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth."

    Is not BTG in Rev 17 seen as being drunk with the wine of the holy ones, and is it not the mouth of the lion that comes against the holy ones in Rev 13?

    Rev 17:6 "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."

    Rev 13:7 "It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,"

    Therefore the mouth of the lion must be BTG, right? It is the mouth that opens up and speaks in Rev 13, the lion that comes against the holy ones, and it is BTG that is drunk from the blood of the holy ones.

    Rev 13:2 "and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth."

    Rev 13:5,6 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven."

    If BTG sits on top of the beast with 7 heads, does that disclude it from being one of the heads? I don't think so, it seems to me to be saying that BTG is the head one of the 7, sitting as the head of gold with all the elements/beasts under it, making the gold/lion/BTG sitting on top.

    Of this we are in complete agreement brother... ;) However, no doubt many will present their misunderstandings of the events that are fulfilling prophecy in that day, but such ones are prophesied.
     

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