Babylon the Great - Solved

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Londoner, Sep 9, 2017.

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    Jan Active Member

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    Rev 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

    This scripture gives the first clue to indentify what Babylon the Great is. It should be a very prominent city from where power is exercised over the kings of the earth.

    It should be a city that acts like a shadow government. Like a maffia who controls the politicians. And I would put my finger on New York.
     
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    Londoner

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    Hi Jan :)

    America being BTG is popular on YouTube. But it fails to cover all the descriptions of BTG in Revelation. For instance, how is NY

    1. Responsible for the deaths of all the holy ones, prophets and all those slaughtered on the earth?

    2. The angel said "She has become a lurking place of demons, etc." She has become - implies that the harlot was once clean. When was NY clean in the eyes of God?

    3. John was writing to the Jews in the 1st century. If you asked a Jew back then "Who is the Great City?" what city would they be thinking of?

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi Londoner,

    Let me ask you, what city did the river Euphrates pass directly through, Jerusalem?

    Rev 16:12 "The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Eu·phraʹtes, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the rising of the sun."

    Rev 17:15 "He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

    As well, when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, encamped to circle the city, who's army are they, Jerusalem's? Does that make sense? Is it not the nations that surround the city to destroy it?

    Luk 21:20 "However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near."

    Rev 11:2 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

    Babylon the Great is the one that comes against the holy ones, she is the one that destroys the city.

    Rev 17:6 "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."

    Rev 13:7 "It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,"

    Babylon the Great is part of the beast in Rev 13, for it's that beast that comes against the holy ones.
     
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    Londoner

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    My reply is in blue.

    Let me ask you, what city did the river Euphrates pass directly through, Jerusalem?

    L: No. That very long river passes through many cities in the countries of Turkey, Syria and Iraq.

    Rev 16:12 "The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Eu·phraʹtes, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the rising of the sun."

    Rev 17:15 "He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

    L: The prostitute cannot be sitting on the river Euphrates. Revelation says the woman made all the nations drink of the wine of the anger of her fornication. That's the whole world, thus peoples, crowds, nations and tongues.

    As well, when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, encamped to circle the city, who's army are they, Jerusalem's? Does that make sense? Is it not the nations that surround the city to destroy it?

    Luk 21:20 "However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near."

    L: Yes, the nations surround Jerusalem. I've said that the nations (NWO) will destroy the fake Jerusalem.

    Rev 11:2 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

    L: Rev 11:2 describes the attack on the real Jerusalem and its literal temple after it has been rebuilt. The KOTN holds sway over the city for 3.5 years. Dan 11:41,45 -
    He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration, and there will be many [lands] that will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand, Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the sons of Amʹmon.

    And he will plant his palatial tents between [the] grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.


    Babylon the Great is the one that comes against the holy ones, she is the one that destroys the city.

    Rev 17:6 "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."

    L: As I've said in the essay, Jesus said Jerusalem is responsible for the deaths of all the prophets and holy ones sent out to her. He also said Christians will be killed too by the city's inhabitants (Matt 23:29-37).

    Rev 13:7 "It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,"

    Babylon the Great is part of the beast in Rev 13, for it's that beast that comes against the holy ones

    L: BTG is not part of the beast. She rides the beast and the creature turns on her and destroys her - it doesn't destroy itself! Rev 13:7 says it wages war on the holy ones and conquers them. It doesn't say "kills them". Compare Rev 11:7 where John says the beast conquers the two witnesses and kills them.

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    How could Jerusalem be responsible if they are the "fake" Jerusalem? Your saying the true Jerusalem is rebuilt, so they can't be the ones who kill the two witnesses, Sooooooo?

    So could you show me a timeline of when the fake Jerusalem are responsible for the death of the holy ones, and when the two witnesses are killed and who's responsible? A timeline would be very useful.

    Thanks brother... May Jehovah's Spirit guide you...
     
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    ANSWER TO QUESTION 1:
    You are right that NY has not persecuted the saints yet in the western world. But it is very soon to change. It is the NY bankers who want to microchip all humanity and they will persecute the saints that will not take the mark of the beast or worship the coming image of the beast. It will become evident that the final persecution is lead from NY.
    But history shows that it was bankers in New York that sponsored Hitler's rise to power. They wanted him to rise and conquer and exhaust Germany so that they later could crush him. The New York bankers sponsored also the rise of Stalin and the communists in USSR. The NY bankers have been sponsoring both sides all over the places and created conflicts. Just as they sponsored the rise of Al Qaida, ISIS etc. Their business is to create conflicts. First they sponsor a group, and then they crush them. And then they make the loosers give up their resources or make them pay back with high interest.
    That is the way NY have become responsible for all the conflicts at least the last 100 years. And their plan is a final third world war. And you see it starting. They have helped China rise, just to have a fight with China later.

    ANSWER TO QUESTION 2:
    The wickedness of NY has developed and it will become ripe for harvest. It does not mean that it was completely clean before.

    ANSWER TO QUESTION 3:
    Here I am sure we can apply Daniel 12:4 “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.+ Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.”+

    That is surely also the reason why the identity of Babylon the Great has not yet become so evident. But there are indications that let to know that the persecution of the saints will come to have its source in NY.
     
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    Londoner

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    You have to get the Two Witnesses out of your head! The essay (and this thread) is about BTG, not the Two Witnesses. I only mentioned the Two Witnesses once in the essay when quoting Rev 11:8, where John identifies the Great City as Jerusalem.

    Timeline: True Jerusalem - After the Israelites conquered the Canaanite city of Jebus, and renamed it Jerusalem (c 9th Century BC), right up to 70AD, there have been holy ones/prophets/and later, Christians killed by Jerusalem (Matt 23:29-37).

    Fake Jerusalem: Some unknown date from 70AD to the present. There's a small minority of Hebrew Israelites (NOT the Khazarian/Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jews) in Fake Jerusalem at present, but they would only be killed if they ignore the cry from the angel to get out of her.

    The Fake Jerusalem must be destroyed as it calls itself Jerusalem, and so must receive her plagues. The NWO knows that it is fake, but must go through the façade of destroying it in order to convince the world that even God's city cannot oppose their rulership.

    Rev 18:24 says this: Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    How is True Jerusalem responsible for all those slaughtered on the earth? It's as I concluded in the essay:

    BTG is Jerusalem. She made all the nations of the earth drink of the wine of the anger of her fornication by taking the lead in being disobedient to God, worshipping other gods and practicing an apostate form of religion that has spread to every country in the world through the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. She is responsible for the deaths of all the holy ones that had been sent to her and for all those slaughtered on the earth. That is because she is the Mother of the Harlots and of the disgusting things of the world because if Jerusalem/Israel had done their job in keeping faithful to God and teaching her children, the nations, about God and His commandments, and if the world listened, then many of the deaths in human history due to conflict and violence could have been averted.

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Tell me, what do you expect to see next in fulfillment of Bible prophecy?
     
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    Londoner

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    Hi Jan :)

    Thanks for your reply. It still doesn't explain how NY is responsible for the deaths of all the prophets/holy ones from the time the Jews conquered the Promise Land down to our time.

    That means BTG has changed identity over the years as the KOTN did. But the description of the harlot in Rev 16, 17-18 is consistent of one unchanging entity.

    I'm sure the banksters will be involved in the creation of the NWO. Conflicts makes money, as the banksters would have to lend money to governments to pay for the expensive military equipment. Only last year, the UK paid off its debts to the banks it incurred during the 1st world war!

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm curious, what do you say to all those in the world who believe the current temple mount location is exactly where it's always been?
     
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    Hi Londoner,
    The talk about guilt is obviously hyperbolic as it was when Jesus said this to his opponents in Matthew 23:35: so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel+ to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.+36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    But Revelation says Babylon the Great uses spiritism to mislead all the nations. (Rev 18:23) Now it has become very public that the shadow government is involved in spiritism. They are masons and the highest level of masons are the Illuminaties. And they regard their spiritistic worship to trace back to Egypt. And they consider their worship to be the oldest of all. So that organization having influence on kings has been active in one empire after an other and now it has their center in NY.
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Jan :)

    I mentioned Freemasonry in the essay, because this worship of the world rulers is mixed up with symbols and rituals from the Abrahamic religions. There is a Freemason museum in London and I went on the website for that, and they were quoting from the scriptures regarding their master building skills! I didn't bother going to the museum.

    Londoner
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    My guess, is that the "Peace and Security" prophecy could be seeing its fulfilment in the near future, as there is a lot of activity suggesting that world war could be imminent. Also, I'm guessing that who God's people truly are will be revealed not to far into the future.

    Londoner
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    They've been deceived. It's a fact that in the 4th century AD, Emperor Constantine's mother, Helena named where she thought the holy sites were in Jerusalem. Consequently, shrines were made, and churches were built on the shrines. That alone is a massive red flag! :eek:

    Londoner
     
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    SingleCell

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    I'm with you Londoner -- interesting the influence (Holy) Rome has had on "fake Israel" and "fake Israel" on Rome.

    End game I'm thinking a false messiah (Saul figure) comes before Jesus (David)

    Regarding the two witnesses, they are killed in Jerusalem, and notice what Jerusalem is likened to:

    "Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified."

    - Rev 11:8

    Could this be the "mystery" of the "harlot"? It just fits too perfectly.

    Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmudic Judaism seems to be Babylon the Great; all the parts fit.

    -------------------

    The perfect trap for Christians and Jews alike.

    This fits with Islamic eschatology as well, whose paradoxical relationship with Biblical prophecy makes the "Saul king" THEIR messiah..
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
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    SingleCell

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    SingleCell

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    This is the one aspect of your argument I find wrong ... the "trap", which is deducing "God's people" relate to lineage and physical inheritances.

    Romans 11 is all we need to prove that physical Jews will come BACK to the truth.

    "re-grafted"

    Jehovah's people are those covered by Jesus' sacrificial death!

    Galatians reveals the trap of thinking the opposite:

    "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Mephibosheth represents the repentant Jews during the conclusion in my opinion, invited by Jesus to sit at the table for late-stage faith in the true king, despite having been "crippled" at birth.

    Note the details of the conversion in Zechariah 12!

    ---------------------

    There are "two twigs" which represent God's people in the end, they are rejoined into ONE twig.

    So there will be an "already Christian" group crushed by the nation-states, and the converting group, during the two witnesses work in Jerusalem.

    Perhaps this distinction is found in Zechariah 12 by "Judah" and "the house of David"?
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Or perhaps a Jew is one who is so of the heart, and Israel represents all believers world wide? ;)

    All love brother...
     
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    Agreed bro - but that is a different topic! I say that to you too often :)

    What you stated would fall into these verses:

    - "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do what Abraham did." John 8:39
    - "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

    -----------------

    In regards to prophecy on the other-hand, are groups, people, places, ... and hey ... things!

    Some component of the globally recognized "Jewish People" recognize the Christ in the end, because Jehovah is loyal to Abraham.

    "For God has confined all of them together in disobedience so that he might show all of them mercy" Romans 11:32

    "they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son" Zechariah 12:10b

    If you are so inclined, read Russel's early work, this was the teaching. We deviated from the truth because of a messiah complex.

    My point is simply WE need to get back to the truth of this clear teaching of the Bible - it has nothing to do with WHO "God's people" are; because I completely agree, when Londoner says that he's really trying to say "JWs are a fraud" [or perhaps Bro. Londoner needs to re-read Galatians! haha]
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I don't believe there is such a thing as a Jewish person or Abraic seed pure of blood remaining on earth, and the idea of trying to determine who is reminds me of WWII and Nazi Germany.

    It seems to me that the 70th week ended the covenant to the Jewish nation and opened it up to the entire world the moment Cornelius was baptized, ending that 70th week.

    I just happen to believe the "many" in Dan 9:27 were the physical Jews as you believe, but that at the end of that week was the moment that covenant was offered to the whole world, and all Israel/Jerusalem/Jew became a metaphor....

    But that's just me... ;)

    Of course a metaphoric "Jew" can be grafted back in after the apostasy, if they are repentant, and as long as they are not anointed, but to me I see Rom 11 speaking of JW's after the apostasy in a future fulfillment. Could that chapter speak of Paul's day?

    Sure, but the physical Jewish nation rejects the Christ and have no role in his love, nor prophecy. I see nothing in scripture to say there will be time to convert after he is revealed, and in no way will anyone be given proof in order to believe. The idea that a group of physical Jews in the time of the end will convert appears opposite to all I understand of what it takes to survive.

    Jehovah fulfilled his covenant to Abraham during that 70th week.

    In my opinion of course...
     

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