Welcome Cisco, and we appreciate your comments. Off topic, but I would like to ask you one question. By deduction it seems you are stating that the "plucking" in Dan 7:8 is the removal or destruction of these other entities such as France and Russia. I'm not unfamiliar with this idea, but let me ask you, why do you imply that definition to "plucked"?

The original word used is ’eṯ·‘ă·qa·rāh, which means pulled up by roots. Now let me pose this to you, we know the UN exists now, who is not to say that when the UN began as a "small" horn this was when it came into existence and the three horns it plucked up were France, Russia and China when bringing them into its fold? It makes more sense chronologically given the rest of the chapter in Daniel 7, and once the beast from which that horn comes from is destroyed at verse 11 (Anglo-America) then that already existing horn then becomes the eighth and final king of Rev 17.

This would also mean that the death stroke to one of the heads of the wild beast at Rev 13 would have been the state of the world power at that time, that of the British Empire and that if it had not been for the Anglo-American loan, that would have been the end to that Empire. That wild beast at Rev 13 would be that very UN coming to be, in parallel with Dan 7:8 and the small horn coming into existence.

Then that brings the next beast described in Rev 13, that of the beast with the two horns. It is that very Anglo-American dual power that comes about at the death stroke of that British Empire after the second world war. Now what does that two horned beast do? It sets up an image of the first beast, it sets up the actual visual location of the United Nations in New York. The actual visual image of the government that did not have a physical place, land or structure until that point. Also keep in mind, the fire it causes to come down from heaven in the sight of the wild beast or "UN" would be the two atomic weapons dropped on Japan.

Now that draws the question of the mark of the beast. At the moment before this little horn (that currently exists) becomes that final eighth king it requires anyone that is a member of its organization to become a charter supporter and we see that example from those who became an NGO. Do you see that at the moment only those who have the ability to sign as an NGO would be able to obtain that mark, but in the future it will be extended to all men when it becomes that eighth king.

 

Cristo, greetings... Agreed that this event Dan 7 speaks about as plucked is figurative. Hence why I wonder if you have considered that these scriptures are speaking about when the UN was founded in 1945? Did not the exact thing occur when these kingdoms were brought into the fold of the UN? Why would scripture not talk about the UN before it's coming to be the eighth king if it has been in existence now for 70 years? When it becomes the eighth king that will not be the time it came into existence, because it already has been.

Here I assume you believe as do I and Robert that the small horn is the UN, and can I assume you believe the beast it comes from in Dan 7:7 is Ango-America? So would you not have a problem in chronology with verses 11-12? It says there that the beast from which that horn came from was destroyed, meaning Anglo-America, well after that horn comes to be. Now how can that be if verses 7-9 show that beast in tact when this horn comes to be? In fact verses 9-10 show what appear to be the beginning of the end, or in fact the start of the visions in Revelation. Does it not show that at that point Anglo-America goes down well after that small horn comes to be at verse 11? “I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking; I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire", then after that in verses 13,14 Jesus is given rullership. Besides, when that horn becomes the eighth king it will be anything but "small".

"Then it was that I desired to make certain concerning the fourth beast, which proved to be different from all the others, extraordinarily fearsome, the teeth of which were of iron and the claws of which were of copper, which was devouring [and] crushing, and which was treading down even what was left with its fee and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other [horn] that came up and before which three fell, even that horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking grandiose things and the appearance of which was bigger than that of its fellows." (Dan 7:19)

Do not these scriptures show that Anglo-America exists as this small horn the "UN" comes up from it? Does that not bring in a paradox into your thinking? How can the Anglo-American beast still be alive if that small horn is in existence? Does this not tell us that the Bible does describe the UN when it comes into existence as it certainly is now before becoming the eighth king?

Another problem you have is when that fourth beast is destroyed at verse 11, that is when the rullerships of the other beasts are taken away, that sounds allot like rllership is given to the eighth king at that point to me, however those other kingdoms are allowed to live for only a time and a season. That is literally 360+90=450 days. This scripture literally says that the fourth beast that is extraordinarily fearsome and teeth of iron from which the small horn the "UN" comes from will be destroyed only 450 days before all the other kingdoms will be. Does that bring up a paradox in your thinking if this horn comes against Gods people for 1260 days? How can the created come before the creator?

 

The problem with that idea is that when the eighth king takes over, that beast is destroyed completely, there is no healing.

“I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking; I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire." (Dan 7:11)

It says Anglo American will be killed. That is not a wound that heals. It says it will be destroyed and given to the burning fire. That is the second death of which there is no come back. You will also notice the other beasts are allowed to live, meaning they will still exist even though their rullerships are given to the eighth king.

Therefore does this not bring in a paradox into any notion that Anglo-America would be that death stroke healed at the time of the eighth king being set up?

​

The seventh head can not be the UN for the reason you mentioned. That seventh head is the British Empire that had the dominating force in the world as John mentioned as the one, "not yet come." (Rev 17:10) It certainly took a blow during WWII and if it had not been for the Anglo-American loan, it would not have survived. It is the entire image of Rev 13 that is the UN, it's the combined image with all the heads of nations and kingdoms of the world all in one.

Just a side note, have you noticed that there are exactly ten non-member states in the UN? It's quite easy to imagine that these are the ones that become full members at that point.


​

The next problem you have is that beast in Rev 13 is said to come against Gods people for 42 months. Now in Daniel this entity that comes against Gods people and acts 1260 days is the small horn. There is a blatant discrepancy there in your thinking.

I would like to learn more about your understanding. Please tell me who you think the fourth beast of Dan 7 is, the small horn, the beast that's destroyed at Dan 7:11 and the two horned beast at Rev 13.

Thanks brother! Liking someone on the board to discuss prophecy with...

 

I've decided to move these posts from another thread because they had nothing to do with it's subject and to further discuss the chronology within...

 

You know Frank, I've gone back and forth with this for a few days. I could most certainly post a verse by verse explanation of Dan 7, but you know in doing so I don't know that it would accomplish anything. People still have their own ideas of what the prophecy says. I am beginning to think the only way to explain the chronology of the end is by showing the way I addressed it, by exploring each idea and determining if there are any paradox's in chronology. You cannot just read into these prophecies events without determining if it causes any paradox elsewhere in scripture, and if there is even one, your theory is wrong. There can be no paradox.

Let me explain with an example. It is a common belief among some of our close associates that the death stroke of Rev 13 is the fall of Anglo-America and the establishment of the eighth king. However that idea would cause a paradox in chronology, and this is why. Look at Dan 7:8, the beast from which the small horn comes from is alive when that horn comes to be, and in fact that beast is not killed until verse 11 and also the fact is verse 11 says that the horn is already in existence and speaking when the beast it comes from is killed. As well that within itself shows these two events are not the same, verse 11 says the beast is killed and its body destroyed and given to the fire! (Second death) Now the beast at Rev 13 is said to have recovered, these two are obviously not the same event or entity at all, otherwise that would put a paradox into scripture and Jehovah's word contains no paradox's.

In fact the beast from which the small horn comes from is destroyed only 450 days before the new world is ushered in, and the small horn comes against the holy place 1260 days before that first day of the new world, therefore the entity that comes against the holy place obviously exists before the fourth beast is killed and the death stroke of the beast of Rev 13 is in no way connected to the establishment of the final eighth king and destruction of Anglo-America. (Dan 7:11)

PS: I see no connection in Belshazzar with any other prophecy or modern day fulfillment in scripture. Adding any more to his identity would be applying personal interpretation from which we must steer far from.

 

Feel free to respond...

 

What you've done is misunderstand. You are correct that those two entities are the same in that of the horn in Dan 7 and the beast of Rev 13, however what you misunderstand is that the "beast" from which that horn came from in Dan 7 is not the same beast as that of Rev 13, that is what I was saying. The horn that comes from the beast in Dan 7 is not the beast itself. The beast at Rev 13 is the horn from the beast in Dan 7 but not the beast that it comes from, that beast is an entirely different entity then the small horn or the beast in Rev 13. The beast that is destroyed at Dan 7:11 is not the death stroke of the seventh head of Rev 13 because the fourth beast in Dan 7 is destroyed completely with fire with no coming back. The beast in Rev 13 does not include this fourth beast in Dan 7, only the leopard, lion and bear. The beast of rev 13 comes to life the moment the other three horns fall and that fourth beast from which that horn comes from does not go down until well within the time of the end in the final battle between the north and south. (Dan 11:40) Again it is wrong to think that the first beast of Dan 13 is the eighth king. It is simply the UN in its current form.

I'm just going to have to write a verse by verse of Dan 7 soon...

What I assert actually is that the chronology is accurate and lays out precisely as you see in my publication "The End Is Here!" What becomes interpretation is what each event represents within that timeline and without the chronology you cannot determine what each event represents.

As to the chronology, here is a link to that information; Click here!

 

Ok, here we go;

The first four beasts of Dan 7 correlate with two different time periods. Number one in that of the immense image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream representing Babylon/Medo-Persia/Greece/Rome. (Dan 2:31) The other of current world powers and entities today. We understand the fourth beast of Nebuchadnezzar's dream to represent Rome and presented as the 6th king of Rev 17:10 that existed at the time of its writing, and through history that 6th king progresses into an Anglo-American world power making up the seventh kingdom. This seventh kingdom is represented in that fourth "fearsome" beast of Dan 7 along with it's ten horns.

Now the battle between North and South rages on for millenia and we can trace their actions through Dan 11 all the way down to our day. As we pick up their history just before the second world war we see them both joined together in a union in that of the Anglo-American dual power in that fourth beast of Dan 7. One being the oligarchical rule behind the scene centered in London and the South represented by the democratic form of government. No better example then that of the British government with a queen behind the scene but a democratic front. We also know that the three beasts of Dan 7 also are representative of world powers today because we see them combined in that beast out of the sea in Rev 13. Notice that the fourth beast is not pictured in that combined beast, and as well only seven heads.

Now, there is a small horn seen coming from the fourth beast of Dan 7. There's no doubt this horn is the UN. Without getting to much into why, briefly the UN is the catalyst for the king of the North to establish a NWO. The beast itself had already contained ten horns itself and well represented this Anglo-American conglomeration and as well the ten horns in the form of the League of Nations. Now when this small horn came to be in the late stages of the second world war the three horns that fell from before it were Germany/Japan/Italy each being one of the "first" or founding members of that League.

Now, the death stroke is to the sixth head of the first beast in Rev 13 and the blow the North took in the second world war and the oligarchy rule. If it were not for the Anglo-American loan to the British that 6th head would not have survived after the second world war. Again that first beast in Rev 13 has seven heads, not eight. It comes from the sea, not the abyss. The eighth king comes from the abyss. Now let's look at that event.

In the time of the end the king of the North will come against the king of the south. (Dan 11:40) The result of that will be the destruction of that 7th king and the fourth beast of Dan 7; “I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking; I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire." (Dan 7:11) That fourth beast is killed, body destroyed and given to the burning fire. There is no coming back from that, that's the second death. Now the horn is well alive when this happens because it's speaking grandiose words before the beast is killed, therefore there is no way that the eighth king comes about after the fall of the Anglo-American system of things because that small horn exists well before the beast from which it comes from is killed. In fact in verse twelve we see that this beast, and the seventh king of Rev 17 is killed only 450 days before the end of all nations on earth completely. Then out of that death of the 7th king comes the 8th king from out of the abyss in Rev 17! The two beasts of Rev 13 and the beast in Rev 17 are all obviously separate entities coming from different sources in that of the sea, earth and abyss and can be explained through chronology. If there is a single paradox in chronology then the understanding is incorrect.

The second beast of Rev 13 is the missing beast from Dan 7. It is that Anglo-American dual power. It is the result of that death stroke to the first beast and brings to life that American, British conglomerate which then brings forth fire from heaven in the sight of the UN when it drops two atomic weapons on Japan ending the second world war. (Rev 13:13) It creates an image of the first beast, in that of the actual location of the UN in New York, for before that the UN had no actual visual location. Financed of course by the North and those elitist looking forward to their NWO and the end of the democratic rule.

I could go on and on, but think I should end this post at the moment. We should always keep in mind that we never want our own theories or ideas to be correct, or to look into scripture to prove our beliefs. Scripture must explain itself and we want Jehovah's will not our own. We want to know what that book actually says. In no way should anything we discuss in scripture be of our own originality but that all things are from Jehovah and belong to him...

Agape friends...

 

Okay Frank... First off with any idea or theory in scripture the very first thing one must think is, "Is this actually what scripture says or am I applying more then is there." So the very first question one must ask when the thought that Belshazzar would have a modern day fulfillment would be to determine if there is a direct connection from him to any other place in scripture. Such as we find in the subject being discussed on this thread and the small horn coming against gods people in Dan 7:21 and also discussed in the beast of Rev 13:7, clearly two prophecies connected. The very next thing that would come to my mind is if you allow a character in Daniel to have a future fulfillment then where does it stop and why wouldn't every other character? Very dangerous way to progress away from what scripture is actually saying. Now, I can not find any reason to believe that Belshazzar's example should be understood as to have a dual fulfillment at all. If you information to the contrary, please share...

As well the same applies to Daniel. Where and in what scriptural connection to our day do you apply a reappearance of a prophetic Daniel? I'm not familiar with any connection of Daniel the man with any other prophet or prophecy to occur again unlike the clear evidence for characters such as Moses and Elijah.

An idea is fine. The problem you can get into is when you take an idea to it's conclusion without proving the very first steps. Let me give you an example in your definition here. Connecting Belshazzar with Satan. Just because Belshazzar was seen as a selfish individual in no way gives a scriptural basis to connect the two in some prophecy to look out for in the time of the end. You need direct mention of prophecy, name connections, chronology.

After you run with an idea that isn't scripturaly based everything after it will be flawed. Saying there is a connection between the first beast of Dan 7 and the fall of Satan from heaven because wings were clipped is a very good way to misguide oneself. As well there is nothing in the definition of the beast in Dan 7 that would connect it to anything other then a worldly government. In no way do I see any connection with it and Satan's ouster from Heaven.

If you go down these roads, you start to believe that a felled heaven high tree in Dan 4 represents the fall and absence of a worldly government here on earth representing Jehovah's rule... Do you understand?