Convictions - Right & Wrong

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Timothy Kline, Jun 9, 2024.

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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    It's because we've discussed our particular understandings on this aplenty over the years. It always comes back to the same thing: I see the new Covenant as the means by which we are brought into a relationship with Jehovah, with Jesus as High Priest and Mediator. The terms & conditions of said relationship is embodied in the Law of the Christ and written on our hearts-- not on tablets of stone.

    The difference between us is in our eschatology: you are still awaiting and looking for something which I understand we already have been given as believers today within the auspices of the new Covenant. Where you are awaiting the fulfillment of prophecies; I understand that all has been fulfilled, both the Law and the Prophets, and provided scriptural context for what has persuaded me to that understanding, as well.

    It's a gulf that we haven't been able to bridge, and so we remain divided on the issue.

    [Remember this illustration from previous divisions between us? You see a square, I see a circle.]

    --Timothy,
    a believer.


    [​IMG]
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes, very true, brother. I see these events still yet future as you see them fulfilled.

    However, your image isn't exactly accurate. We do not see the same object from differing perspectives, making both shadows correct. We both see the same shadow attempting to explain the unseen object. Only one of us can be right.

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    Right. Wrong. That I'll leave to those inclined to debate over it. I hope, too, that I have never said or insisted that I was right— all I can offer are scriptural evidences. I'm not ever trying to prove I am right, or that I have the right of anything. All I have are the scriptural references, and my present understanding on this, that, or the other.

    And I realize that where I'm at with my understanding on the whole Law and Prophets issue is unorthodox. I don't make an issue out of it, and I am adamant in my support of those who lean to the orthodox view, with prophecies imminent in their fulfillment. I encourage them because I can and it is righteous to do so, using that "freeness of speech" to benefit others, build them up, encourage them. Be there for them, when needed. I have no authority to undermine the faith of another. Or reject someone related to me in faith over it. I have a pretty full-time job with my self.

    Besides, let's face it... if I am wrong in my understanding (and, logically, be unaware that I'm wrong), do you believe I'm going to be disappointed beyond the Veil? Or if the future plays out prophetic fulfillments as the orthodox believer anticipates? To this I can only respond by saying that I am not saying that Jehovah doesn't bring about Judgment when His Justice demands it. I believe we are living in a period of Judgment right now. How serious it gets remains to be discovered. Man is overly capable of making Jehovah's nostrils flare. And we have an entire collection of examples written in the Bible of how Jehovah deals with Man's nonsense-- so there remains no more excuses.

    I confess: All I can do is show my scriptural reasons for why I am of the present understanding. I wish I had the time I did in my youth to lay it all out, but I don't, nor do I make it a divisive issue. Others are likely to, and I respect that. And there are those who see it as a right-or-wrong matter, and question my faith.

    I can only offer the same defense the apostle Paul did in his first epistle to the believers at Corinth:

    "I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me. . . He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." —1 Corinthians 4:3-5 Berean Standard Bible

    And I appreciated you and @Harry clarifying for me own your position(s) on the Covenant, by the way.

    Maybe the two videos I linked below would help better explain my understanding (covenant theology). The second one goes on quite a bit about the restoration of national Israel and his reasons for his view. But he does say at the end that covenant theology rejects that view. I'm still undecided on that segment of Paul's letter. It's too ambiguous to reject one way or the other.

    —Timothy,
    a believer.



     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2024
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    In my summation, it's just a matter of odds. Scripture is black or white to me, without grey areas. So, this subject is never about being right but about being correct. I have certain family members to thank for that. They are narcissists who must always to be right, regardless of the truth. I will never be like that. Therefore, it doesn't matter what I think, all that matters is truth.

    I can tell if others want to be right rather than correct; that attitude is readily noticeable, and I know this is not the case with you. I hope you are familiar enough to know this is also the case with myself. I hate everything about that attitude of insisting on being right.

    Like you, if I'm wrong on eschatology no big deal, I will be glad our Father corrected me. I stand for honor, truth, and righteousness. This is the reason I serve God and what I would die for. That self-righteous can't be wrong attitude initiated in the garden of Eden will be gone forever when crushed to oblivion by our Lord. If I'm there to see it, cool, but I know I've done enough to deserve death, too. Either way, today, I stand for Jehovah through Christ Jesus through life or death.

    That said, either one of us is correct in prophecy, or both are incorrect. We can't both be right just by the nature of our diverging views—nothing more, nothing less. :)

    As you know, I count on your friendship. You have assisted me in ways I could never repay. Don't ever keep your views to yourself, brother. I appreciate it when you push me...

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    Your conviction, that you are right in how you see things, likely stems from your personal experience, and is therefore unassailable as such, but it fails to accord with what is described in the NT as experienced by those who lived the fulfillment of the promises, as expressed in a nutshell by Paul's word: "For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him." 2 Co 1:20

    To you the new covenant seems to be a mere promise that has yet to be confirmed, where the blessings have not yet come about, like a Law Covenant 2.0 that informs all Neo-Mosaic religions like WT etc, - and that is fine for what it is, since the blessing of all the nations is yet to come by means of those now selected and trained for that very purpose until Jesus returns, which is why it says concerning that time: "And the Spirit and the Bride keep on saying: 'Come!' and let anyone hearing say: 'Come!' and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life's water free."

    Regarding God's promises, and their confirmation in us, it is written: 'Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into His rest, let us fear that sometime someone of you may seem to have fallen short of it; for we have had the good news declared to us also, even as they also had; but the word which was heard did not benefit them, because they disobeyed it through their lack of faith.' Heb 4

    OT prophets and angels were commended for trying to peer into what was not about them, which makes it seem appropriate for the nations to also aspire to gain insight into such things, in my opinion. 1 Pe 1:10-12


    Harry
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    If there are no grey areas for you, I'm happy for you. In my case, I simply defer to my faith that all things will take place according to Jehovah's Will. Faith covers those things I don't or can't know. If I knew the black and white of everything, there'd be no need for faith.

    For both if we should live, we live to the Lord; and if we should die, we die to the Lord. Therefore both if we should live and if we should die, we are the Lord's. — Romans 14:8 Berean Standard Bible

    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. — 1 Corinthians 13:8 Berean Standard Bible

    [
    QUOTE="Joshuastone7, post: 30933, member: 2"]That said, either one of us is correct in prophecy, or both are incorrect. We can't both be right just by the nature of our diverging views—nothing more, nothing less.[/QUOTE]

    There it is again: rightness.

    John said to Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn’t in our group.” “Don’t stop him!” Jesus said. “No one who performs a miracle in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us. — Mark 9:38-40 New Living Translation (paraphrased Bible)

    The disciple John's thoughts were in the rightness, and Jesus' thoughts were on the righteousness.

    But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church. Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes. — 1 Corinthians 8:1-2 New Living Translation (paraphrased Bible) [The apostle Paul circles back to this at 1 Corinthians 13:8, cited above.]

    I don't think of it as keeping "my views" to myself. My views are meaningless and invariably change as I grow in wisdom (and experience). What I think on this matter or that is equally irrelevant: I can only point to scripture. How those scriptures are understood by another is between them and Jehovah God, who is the Revealer.

    If I say the sky is blue, and someone else says No, it's azure, then who's correct? Because it's always easy to determine who's right: the person who insists the sky is BLUE and/or the person who insists the sky is azure.

    To start a quarrel is to release a flood; so abandon the dispute before it breaks out. — Proverbs 17:14 Berean Standard Bible

    Submitted for perusal and consideration,
    Timothy,
    a believer.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    As I said in the post you quoted, I don't care anything about being right.

    If by "personal experiences" you mean outside Scripture, I have no idea what you are talking about. This statement by you has nothing to do with me.

    That's your opinion. Jesus promised a kingdom for the disciples to rule. They are not ruling; they are dead.

    Period.

    It would appear by this statement you put yourself on a pedestal. It appears you claim to be in a special position as a seed of Abraham (as you put it), while I am of the nations wishing to peer into the Scriptures that God gave you special insight into...lol You even put yourself before OT prophets and angels. o_O

    Please... It is getting really thick in here now... lol

    Joshua
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No, brother. What I meant by "there are no grey areas" is that there can be only one right answer in Scripture. Unlike your image, where we can see the same object from differing views, only one answer can be right. Either one of us is right, or neither is right. That's what I meant. I certainly do not have all of the answers. I'm still climbing the mountain, just like you.

    You seem to be misunderstanding me here, brother. Is the Trinity correct, or is it not? There can only be one right answer. That is what I was referring to. Jesus either never had a beginning, or He did have a beginning. There can only be one right answer. The text can only mean one thing. It's black or white with no grey areas.

    Color isn't a fact; it's subjective, an opinion, though. Whether God will destroy the physical earth or it will remain forever is a fact, and can't be an opinion, brother.

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    I don't know this for a fact because I haven't lived forever to know that it's true. It is, however, an assurance or promise that I can have faith in. There is a distinction to be had here.

    Let's go with the either-or for one more go, though: We are either right, or we are wrong. Or, we are both wrong.

    So, let me ask you: what are you currently wrong about in your understanding of the Bible? If what you argue is correct, that there is only ONE right understanding, then what are you currently wrong about-- because unless you are perfect in your knowledge, perfect in your understanding, you are wrong about something. So, what is it that you are wrong about? And explain to me how your being wrong on that particular matter is not informing or affecting anything else you believe you are right about.

    I guess I should also make clear that this is not to be argumentative, nor is it an attempt to sink into relativism. I would simply like to know what you are wrong about in your present understanding-- because we all are imperfect, we all understand imperfectly, and we're all endowed with a "blind spot." To go with that question, I would like to know how that which you are wrong about is not in any way whatsoever affecting anything else you "know" you are "right" about.

    Thank you, in advance,
    Timothy,
    a believer.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Since I believe there is only one right answer in Scripture, my current understanding is that I am either completely wrong about everything I currently believe or wrong about some things and correct about others. There is no way to prove to myself or anyone else that anything I currently believe is correct. What I can't be is correct on everything.

    But my understandings have no affect on the fact that God only meant one thing when writing the text. (black or white) Everyone can't be correct in their own understandings; salvation is not a matter of opinion.

    "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’" Mth 7:22

    Joshua

    PS:
    Your belief has no bearing on whether the earth will be here forever. There is only one right answer. Whether the earth will be here forever or not is a fact. Only one can occur.

    The Bible either says it will, it won't or doesn't say at all. There are no grey areas. The Bible doesn't open itself up to opinions.
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    See, I wouldn't see this as an opinion. Subjective, yeah, probably.

    When I started in the computer world, back in the 8-bit days of Atari and Commodore home computers, there were only 16/256 colors that they could display. Before that, as a child, I understood there were the basic colors of the spectrum: Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, and Violet... Roy. G. Biv, for short.

    Today, computers are capable of displaying 16-million colors+ and this in spite of humans only being able to discern somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million colors.

    If someone says the sky is blue, are they wrong, or are they right? Well, for the person who knows that azure is a hue of blue, the person who thinks the sky is blue is not right: it's azure. And for that azure person, it's OBVIOUSLY azure. So, they are right. At least until someone comes along as says, no, that sky is cyan-colored, and both are wrong: the person who says the sky is blue, and the person who says the sky is azure.

    And on it goes.

    Is this subjective? Again, I will say perhaps, but each person's identification of color is based on their level of knowledge. In some languages, there may be only ONE word for blue: blue. All the other shades and tones of blue are meaningless for that person due to the constraint of language, and subsequently the ability to communicate. I once knew there were 7 colors and now I know that we have discovered some 16.7 million colors. Tomorrow, that number may double.

    But who is right? Each person is observing the same object, and they share commonality, but are not 100% in agreement.

    If you look at a passage on, let's say, the resurrection, and I look at the same passage... and you say that the scripture is talking about the raising to life of physical, corporeal bodies, then that is your blue, or azure, or cyan. If I look at the same passage and say, no the resurrection has already occurred because we are no longer "dead" (in our trespasses) and "dead" in our awareness of Jehovah God, then this is me seeing a shade or hue that you aren't seeing. It doesn't make you right, it doesn't make you wrong. Nor me, the same.

    If you are going to insist that I must see your azure, blue, or cyan, in order to be right, then we're talking about rightness, and no longer about righteousness. And the same is true of me: if I am going to insist that you see the same color as I do where the resurrection is concerned, then I am emphasizing rightness over righteousness.

    Resurrection is "blue," the basic color itself. "A raising to life." You and I perceive different hues or tones as regards that blue (resurrection). Neither of us are wrong as long as we agree that it's blue, regardless of the hue/tone we can see. But because we know and now are able to see the nuances of the color blue, off we go in our respective direction, debating what that blue IS. It's blue, but we're not content with that. We insist that okay, it's blue... but it's REALLY azure, or cyan, or whatever.

    --Timothy,
    a believer.

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    While I appreciate, as always, your insights, I have to disagree with you, brother. (a difference of opinion)

    Your analogy is flawed, in my opinion. As you mentioned, humans collectively create words to describe objects, such as colors. That is not communication. That is collectively agreeing to name something. The Bible is God speaking to us, not an object we are trying to describe.

    Please tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems you look at Scripture as that subjective color or object that we can describe in varying ways depending on perspective.

    I see Scripture as one individual speaking to us. So, for example, if I were to say, "I like steak," you could also ask, "Why don't you like chicken?" You could believe I said I liked steak because I didn't like chicken. Is your opinion of why I said I liked steak valid regardless of what I truly meant? When someone says something, others do not have the right to interpret said words through their understanding of what such words mean. Regardless of the words used, only the speaker can define the intent of their words.

    God speaks to us through Scripture, and He has an intent with every word. Our opinions of what color the Bible is are irrelevant to the fact that only God can tell us what He means. We will always be wrong when we interpret Scripture through our own experiences.

    There can be only one correct answer in Scripture because it's communication from one individual to another. Only the speaker can define their meaning. Any assumptions or opinions on the speakers statements are irrelevant to the singular intent of the speaker.

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    Which takes me back to my earlier question: what you are presently in error on in your present understanding of the scriptures?

    --Timothy,
    a believer.

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, then, we're getting into the argument between predestination, free will, and the meaning of faith.

    If our Lord opens our eyes to understanding, then the only answer I can give is that of my mountain analogy.

    Understanding God's words is like climbing a mountain. Our Lord is the foundation stone, and the peak is the perfect truth. There are climbers at all differing altitudes guided by a map. As you climb, you will come across others on the same journey. As you walk together a distance, one may take a wrong turn, no longer heading up that mountain, while others may continue gaining altitude, even though you are all using the same map. The one making the wrong turn believes that they are still gaining altitude; however, no matter their opinion, only the fact remains.

    The lower climbers can't imagine the effects on those in the higher altitudes, and because of the distance, those in the higher altitudes can't yell out to guide the ones below. They can only leave notes along the way suggesting translations of the map routes. It's up to the climber to decide whether the notes are valid directions because there are good and bad suggestions. And only the good suggestions are offered by the Spirit through the higher climbers.

    At some point, everyone on the mountain will freeze to death, never reaching the peak. At which point, God must judge those climbers based on their chosen routes, for not all who began the climb will be resurrected. But the only way to even have a chance at survival is to start the climb, for those doing their own thing will never even be considered.

    Where am I in error in my current understanding? That's a very good question, and one I ask daily.

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    Yet the evidence is there: you have had a change of understanding on one thing or another where the scriptures have been opened to you. You used to believe something that was true, and now you believe something else that is true.

    In hindsight you know now that what you thought and believed true before --turned out to be something else.

    So let me ask: were you wrong in or about what you believed before?

    I'm just looking for a yes or no, please. I have no sinister motives here, or anything, so I don't want to leave you feeling like you have to hedge your bet and qualify your answer. :p

    --Timothy,
    a believer.
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    I wouldn't say that I subscribe to his explanation, but he offered an otherwise good summation of how "covenant theology" approaches the Bible.

    Where the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are concerned, I simply do not know what, if anything, comes of them. The apostle Paul writes that a blindness has come upon them until the Gentile Christians have been grafted into the Tree of Life, as it were. With this, as far as I have been able to determine, the genealogical records were destroyed when the Temple was razed to the ground; there are those who insist that the only genealogical records destroyed had to do with the priesthood. Still others interpret this to mean that at some point in the future, the eyes of the Jews will be opened and they will be converted to Christianity-- at least the ones that hope to survive.

    Lots of opinions. Me, I don't know. Whatever happens, it will happen according to Jehovah's Will. It's not like I'm going to throw down my crown because the Jewish people are back in the fold.

    But the way of looking at the Bible in that manner connects with me, and answers a lot of questions I used to have and be all OCD over. Instead of anxiety, I've found peace. And in these times, that is a precious thing.

    --Timothy,
    a believer.
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    Some people are good at nutting things out by themselves in their own head, but for most people, discussing, and even arguing, points of difference helps to clarify and improve one's own understanding and ability to reason and convey one's thoughts in a more precise and understandable way - plus, 'where two or three are gathered in My Name . . . '

    Otherwise, why 'make sure of all things . . .' or 'test the inspired expressions . . .' etc. if we all have 'our own facts and truth,' as the woke mob is trying to convince us of?

    And I don't mean to insinuate that this is what you meant.



    Harry
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    If I am correct now, after a change in an aspect of God's Word, I was wrong before. Jesus was either the Israelites' Messiah or He was not. The choice was theirs.

    When Paul learned that covetousness is a sin, he realized he had been wrong. This is the very nature of life, is it not?

    You seem to think there is such a thing as personal truth. There is not... The universe does not care what you believe.

    Humbly...

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    I was originally going to respond with how the apostle Paul was absolutely convicted that he was right, and how far he was willing to go to demonstrate his rightness, even seeing to the deaths of Jewish Christians... until Jesus himself set the man straight. And I was going to point out how there wasn't a single believer alive in Paul's day who would've been able to convince him that he was in error. That it very well can be the same with us, today, even.

    But then I read the above from you and after prayerfully reflecting on it all last night, and again this morning as I woke and began getting around for the day, I will simply take my leave from the contentiousness, that there might be peace.

    So Abram said to Lot, “Please let there be no contention between you and me, or between your herdsmen and my herdsmen. After all, we are brothers. Is not the whole land before you? Now separate yourself from me. If you go to the left, I will go to the right; if you go to the right, I will go to the left.” . . . And Abram and Lot parted company. — Genesis 13:8-9, 11b Berean Standard Bible

    Submitted for perusal and consideration,
    Timothy,
    a believer.

     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    Not an opinion and not mine but Paul's experience: 'those who have been cleansed once for all time have no consciousness of sin anymore, which is fulfillment of a new covenant promise of having 'Jehovah's law written' in one's heart.

    Feel free to disbelieve Paul's witness, but your argument is with him and God, not me.

    Before they can rule they need to live an earthly existence with God's law written on their hearts, having the mind of Christ, and endure faithful to the end.

    All members of Abraham's seed are in a 'special position;' that is what Christianity and the NT are all about, nothing else, something every Christian would know; but I imagine that the 'diversity, equity and inclusion' mob are not too happy about it, and they are recruiting right now.


    Harry
     

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