Convictions - Right & Wrong

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Timothy Kline, Jun 9, 2024 at 1:23 PM.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Was there contentiousness? Hmm.. I guess it's just my matter-of-fact writing style. I assure you in person, my jovial speaking style would have been evident.

    Maybe you misunderstand me?

    When I say the universe does not care what you think, I mean gravity functions regardless of our opinion of it. Our personal opinions on how the physical world works is irrelevant to its function, therefore there is no personal truth. The universe does not have feelings. If you were assuming I was saying no one cares, that couldn't be further from the truth, nor even evident in our history. I was saying the universe functions only one way, regardless of how we perceive it.

    As far as I'm aware, Paul was wrong and then right when corrected, meaning there is a right and a wrong, as I've said. I'm not sure I understand how that example contradicts me. Conviction has nothing to do with being correct or not.

    Joshua
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You are not Paul's spokesperson. You have the same Bible as us, dude. How about quoting from the Bible why you believe what you do instead of acting like you are God's spokesperson?

    So you're perfect, are you? Well, good for you. Paul said he wasn't perfect yet, but he said Christ's sacrifice makes us perfect when sin is removed and we are no longer conscious of it... HMMMMM

    Adam and Eve were conscious of their sin within them, weren't they? What did they have to do? They needed to cover their nakedness, representing sin. Guess what we have to do after Christ came? We have to buy clothing from Jesus to cover our nakedness of sin. (Rev 3:17) But it's removed already? HMMMM

    I am still conscious of sin in me, Harry. Good for you; you aren't aware of your sin. I don't think I'd be proud of that.

    Sin has not been removed. Just because you think you have some higher power insight does not make your assumptions correct.

    Why can't you stay on topic? You are a rambling mess. What were we talking about???? The new covenant can not have come yet because it was a promise to rule a kingdom. That New Covenant promise could not have come yet; they are not ruling, they are DEAD.

    And you go off about needing to live a faithful life. NO REALLY? Do they need to live a faithful life? I'm glad you told me... o_O

    Look, I don't think you're right about who the seed of Abraham is; they are all believers.

    My current issue with you is that in that post, you claimed I was a member of the "nations" while you are a member of "the seed" (a special class to you). According to you, I wish to peer into things that only you understand. You even put yourself above the OT prophets and angels who "wish to peer into these things." Meaning that the things you present here are facts because of your high and mighty spiritual position.

    Look, take a step down off your pedestal, Harry.

    You aren't acting like a servant. Jesus washed His disciples' feet, and you lord your mightiness over others. You are just a man with misunderstandings in the Bible. So, how about gaining some spiritual maturity, huh? If you think you're in some particular position with God, keep it to yourself and act like it; be the servant you are supposed to be!

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline Member

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    I will briefly respond:

    I agree that one's conviction has nothing to do with being correct or not. It does, however, and this is my experience both with my self and with others, play a significant role in how an incorrect view cannot be overturned for the person who is convicted in their rightness.

    Have you not yourself said on more than occasion recently, or, challenged, someone to prove you wrong. Bluntly, that does not sound like a follower of Jesus to me. I know of no account of a Christian challenging someone else to "prove me wrong" at any point in the Christian Greek Scriptures. This is a contentious spirit, not a Christian one.

    What I do know of are the accounts where someone in the Christian Greek Scriptures was willing to go so far as to do in someone else because they were convinced of their own rightness. The Pharisees, the apostle Paul before conversion, the Judaizing Christians insisting that Gentile believers be circumcised, for starters.

    I found it immensely reassuring that, after I had posted my offer of peace this morning by parting ways, the following scripture came up randomly (?) in the Bible discussion between my wife Deb, and myself:

    Each one of you is part of the body of Christ, and you were chosen to live together in peace. So let the peace that comes from Christ control your thoughts. And be grateful. -- Colossians 3:15, Contemporary English Version

    ...and let the peace which Christ gives settle all questionings in your hearts, to which peace indeed you were called as belonging to His one Body; and be thankful. -- Colossians 3:15, Weymouth New Testament

    Brother, I have no compulsion to answer your call to "prove" you wrong, and will leave it to others to do so, should they feel so inclined. Nor am I inclined to remain where there is a spirit of contentiousness, even if it hasn't reached that level in your own estimation.

    Without wood or even kindling, a fire cannot burn. (cf. Proverbs 26:20-21)

    Submitted for perusal and consideration,
    Timothy,
    a believer.

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Brother, you have misunderstood again.

    Remember, only the speaker can define their meaning. You are interpreting. When I say, "Give me scriptural proof," that means I need a direct scriptural connection so that I may be corrected where I am wrong. I cannot be proven wrong just by someone telling me I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong so that I may head back up the mountain. If you can't, I am still on the right path. I see that as a loving commission from God. I listen and pay attention to every word from someone with a differing view so that I may check the scriptures to see if these things are so. I don't close my ears to opposing views.

    Paul confronted Peter face to face and corrected his wrongness on circumcision.

    If you believe we are all right at all times, then you have a different opinion than I do because I do not think that.

    I'm not sure you fully appreciated it when I said I care nothing about being right; I only care about being correct. There is a HUGE difference between those two. I will ask others with differing opinions to prove me wrong in Scripture until the day I die. I need that. If I'm wrong, prove it in the text so that I am no longer wrong. That's exactly what Jesus did to Paul on the road; He proved him wrong. And that's precisely what Paul did with Peter. Heck, all of the Bible is full of such incidences of people being corrected on false assumptions.

    When someone corrects me, I am the first person to admit it. If you were to ask anyone in my family, they would tell you the same thing. I don't care anything about being right and will admit when I'm wrong immediately if proven wrong.

    I do not apologize for this approach; this is my understanding of Paul's words and a God-breathed directive.

    "Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." Acts 17:1

    This is a righteous approach that keeps us from deception and on the path of truth. When you are witnessing to others, that's exactly what you are doing, attempting to prove their understanding wrong so that you may save their souls. And if you're not open to correction yourself, you will remain wrong in your convictions as well. (Where they may be wrong)

    If the Israelite nation had listened to Jesus' correction, a million Jews would not have died. The Bible is full of God's people who correct others' understandings through God's Word. How many times did Jesus call the Hebrew Scribes idiots for their false assumptions?

    If you do not wish to correct me in the areas I need, that is your will, brother. There are differing ways of correction. Just offering ones own views is a way to offer correction. I never said proving me wrong had to be contentious; just offer your views, and maybe you're right, and I'm wrong. I can look in the Bible myself to see if you are correct or not. These matters are not salvational; we discuss them to clarify the details.

    And no, I saw no contention until now. No one can make us feel anything. If you have been offended, it is of your own making.

    Joshua
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What is the very purpose of the Bible itself?

    "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." 2Tim 3:16

    How are we to preach?

    "Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." 2Tim 4:2

    Jesus corrected the disciple's wrong understanding on several occasions.

    "Aware of their deepest thoughts, Jesus took a little child and had the child stand beside him. Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever welcomes this child in my name welcomes me. Whoever welcomes me, welcomes the one who sent me. Whoever is least among you all is the greatest.” Luk 9:47, 48

    Jesus corrected Peter's assumptions several times, even saying, "Satan behind me" right to Peters's face over his wrong assumptions. Jesus corrected the people's false assumptions throughout the entire text.

    Jesus was constantly challenging the Jewish leaders of his day to prove Him wrong.

    "Jesus said to them, “I’ll ask you a question. Answer me, and then I’ll tell you why I have the right to do these things. Did John’s right to baptize come from heaven or from humans? Answer me!” Luk 11:29

    The Jewish leaders followed the Law, so what was the problem? They didn't have accurate knowledge. Truth is a matter of degree, just like in my mountain climbing scenario.

    "Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth." 2Tim 3:7

    "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’" Mth 7:22

    John the Baptist challenged the leaders.

    Jesus asked the Jewish leaders to prove Him wrong the day He died.

    "Jesus answered him, “If what I said is wrong, bear witness about the wrong; but if what I said is right, why do you strike me?” Jhn 18:23

    And you said:
    Jesus did constantly... God challenged Job and every literal generation of Israelites to prove Him wrong.

    I mean, I can go on and on. Is this not fundamental to our service in God's kingdom? Did not Timothy and Paul tell us that the text is for "reproof and correcting?"

    Truth matters. If it didn't, Jesus would have never corrected anyone around Him. They all thought they were doing God's Will. But guess what? They were wrong. Peter was wrong, and Paul was wrong. I mean, everyone was wrong in the text except Jesus. That means we're wrong, too. Don't you think? If you think you're already right in your conviction, you will be blinded to correction at a crucial moment.

    There is a right and a wrong. The Bible and the universe are black or white. Truth doesn't care what we believe; there is only one truth.

    "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," Eph 4:5

    Joshua
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2024 at 4:13 PM
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So?

    Paul killed Christians through his belief in his "rightness.". And then Paul, believing he was right, gave his life for Christianity. What should that tell you? That should tell you that having conviction means nothing. There is only truth. Conviction has nothing to do with being correct, evil, or righteous. And the very same convinced person can use their conviction for good or evil, thinking both are good. All that matters is being correct.

    Conviction is irrelevant and meaningless.

    So what matters? Truth. Fact. Paul was wrong in his conviction that he was doing the right thing by hunting Christians and correct in his conviction for Christ. It has everything to do with being correct. And if you think you're comfortable with your own convictions, that's fine, but that doesn't make them accurate. And that doesn't mean you are following our Lord's commands by being convinced within yourself. (That goes for everyone, including me.) Your convictions are meaningless to truth.

    I prefer to be correct without regard for my convictions or experiences.

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jer 17:9

    I am not convinced or wish to be right in anything. Every day I question what I believe, just as Paul told us to, in order to be correct.

    "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2Cor 13:5

    Again, Jesus challenged anyone to prove Him wrong.

    "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?" Jhn 8:46

    "“If what I said is wrong, bear witness about the wrong;" Jhn 18:23

    Is Jesus is being unChristian? Of course not.

    What does Paul say about debating with others? How did he debate?

    "We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ," 2Cor 10:5

    That sounds like Paul was a bit more harsh than others. He says he "destroys lofty opinions."

    God even inspired Paul to boast about his own accomplishments.

    "Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death." 2Cor 11:23

    He is flat-out boasting and saying he's better than others. I don't even do that. Is anyone going to call Paul out? You would have walked out on Paul confident in your convictions, wouldn't you have?

    Then Paul says we have the right to boast, even though I NEVER do.

    "But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another." 2Tim 3:7

    What do you think this scripture below means?

    "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment." 1Cor 14:29

    A couple of guys are to speak, and the rest are to pass judgment on whether they are correct or not. That's from Paul.

    What else does he say?

    "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God," 1Jhn 4:1-3

    So, we're supposed to test and pass judgment on others' words; we are supposed to correct and reprove each other through Scripture. We can boast of our own service. If we are Christ like we can challenge others to prove us wrong in our convictions. We're supposed to reprove, correct, and admonish fellow believers through Scripture as Paul did with Peter and countless others had.

    But what you can't do is assume. When you think you know why someone is saying or doing something without asking them why, but instead determining their intent through your own opinions, you will always be wrong. You cannot read minds.

    "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." Prov 18:2

    "Judge not, that you be not judged."
    Mth 7:1

    You seem to think being a Christian is all peace and love; it is not. Jesus came to bring a sword, not peace. (And yes I know we are to be peaceable. The Bible is a whole, not a part. ) Do you not remember Him carrying a whip and turning tables over - even calling out anyone with false assumptions? That's our Lord as well, Timothy. And why did He do these things? Because the people around Him had incorrect assumptions about right and wrong. They were not correct in their thinking. Conviction is meaningless.

    "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." Mth 10:34, 35

    Anyway... I am just doing what I'm supposed to be doing, even with these words to you.

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry New Member

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    " . . . men can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect; otherwise, would the sacrifices not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? . . . for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away." Heb 10:1-4

    Think! How could Paul make the deduction that a 'once for all time cleansing' were to occur that would completely wipe out 'consciousness of sin' in the person receiving it - resulting in 'perfection of conscience' - when that aspect of the new covenant is not stated in the text given by God through Jeremiah, and the new covenant were not already in force, and thus experienced, with such a miraculous manifestation at that time?

    Thus it is clear that Christians back then were already experiencing the glorious freedom of the children of God, even while dwelling in this earthly tent; sons of God, just as Adam was before the fall; righteous in God's eyes, and perfect in conscience.

    The new covenant ceased for them at their physical death, just as it will for us at Christ's return in glory, for there will be no need for forgiveness after bestowal of immortality, which is why the new covenant has to be in operation now, while we are still in the flesh.

    This is all out in the open, written plainly in the NT - I am not revealing any sacred secrets here.

    It's not about me; its what I read in Scripture and believe - and so can you, and any others of the 'many.' Acts 2:39

    The new covenant is fulfilled in two installments; the earthly, here and now, and the ruling part upon Christ's return - its all written about in the NT.

    Yes, belief is necessary for being joined to Christ.

    It doesn't matter what I claim - and I did not claim that about you anyway - it is just that your views in several key areas - such as on the new covenant - made me wonder that you might be of the earthly persuasion, which is a glorious hope for those thus inclined and inspired by God's promises; so no need for taking offense because none intended by me. Zec 12:7

    No need to; you already knocked me down from it, thanks alot, lol

    Nothing more than any other NT Christian.


    Harry
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Assumption, assumption, assumption. God didn't tell Jeremiah when the New Covenant would come nor when He would write upon their hearts. He only spoke about the old vanishing because a new one was coming.

    God never mentions removing sin to Jeremiah, so what? lol.... What does that have to do with anything? So, God is only going to do or not do something if he told Jeremiah or not? Please.... Your method of interpretation is flawed. Paul was inspired by God to write Hebrews. Harry. That's where Paul got it from. Let alone he spoke to Peter and other apostles.

    Look around you. Are you perfect? Do you still sin, or not? Has sin been removed? Are you still conscious of sin in you? How are you not conscious of sin? Are the disciples ruling a kingdom?

    Come on man... Who is being rational, and who is blowing smoke? According to you all blessings and promises are fulfilled. You are just like the WT saying the kingdom has already come!

    You're not revealing anything but your own opinions and assumptions in the text. And the more you insist your understanding is from God, the more you diminish your reputation with me.

    lol... Okay, if you say so. I must have missed that scripture.

    You mean belief in how you believe is necessary.

    What does it make you when you assume, Harry? You have no idea who you are talking to. I could have any calling in God's plans that you are entirely unaware of. You could be completely wrong about these matters, and God sent you here, hoping you would wake up. Your conviction that you are right has nothing to do with whether or not you are actually correct.

    You will always be lost in your assumptions until you can learn how to learn.

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry New Member

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    Pardon me for jumping in here on your discussion, Joshua and Timothy, but I think that with the prerogative of defining your meaning, you also have the obligation to define it properly, especially if using terms outside or beyond their commonly understood usage, if constructive dialog be the purpose of speaking.

    Only Jehovah and Jesus are allowed to define Their own meaning and let us guess and grope for all that is intended to be conveyed by their utterances, in my opinion - there is that gulf between Them and us.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You are completely wrong. No one can read minds; the only thing you can do is you. Speak your mind, and it's the others' responsibility to understand. People will have all levels of understanding, and there's no way to determine what someone else will or won't understand. All you can do is you.

    The only thing a speaker can do is speak their mind. And when you assume, you know what that makes you? If you don't understand something, ask qualifying questions in that area. No one can tell the future and read your mind into what you won't understand.

    Stop assuming you know what other people are saying; that does nothing but cause fights. I bet you hear from others, "That's not what I was saying," all the time. It doesn't matter what words they used; all that matters is what they intended to say. Try understanding their true intent. Come on, this is common sense.

    This is the very nature of speech, from God's Word and man's.

    "Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil."
    Mth 5:37

    Joshua

    PS: This also means no one can make you feel anything. You choose to feel the way you do about someone's words. You don't have to care what others think or say. So take responsibility for your own feelings instead of blaming others for how you feel. (This applies to everyone in general.)
     
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    Harry New Member

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    How is one to know what someone intends to say if they don't use words suited to convey it?
    Then trying to understand goes back to assumptions - what else can there be?

    Intent matters to God, because He can read hearts; I am not God; I can only assume good intent.

    I don't know what university you went to, I can only assume, right? lol

    Without prejudice, do you know about Frankfurt School and its connection to western education?

    Now there you have a loaded assumption, lol.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Truth is all that matters...

    How does one understand Jesus?

    "All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable." Mth 13:34

    Jesus rarely used the words you would expect someone to use in conjunction with His meaning.

    "As they were crossing the lake, Jesus warned them, “Watch out! Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod.” Mrk 8:15

    Why? Why did Jesus speak in parables?

    "Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” Mth 13:10

    "This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Mth 13:13

    Jesus spoke in parables because He knew the people in general would assume. Only those who really wished to understand His true meaning would ask Him and dig deeper into what He meant. Those with the right heart condition would genuinely ask qualifying questions, not just already assume what He was saying through their own experiences.

    The words used are irrelevant to the speaker's meaning. Granted, we don't all speak in parables, but sometimes we do. However, in general, we want to speak concisely and directly. I've written two books that have had to undergo rigorous editing by two different individuals. That teaches you how much you should speak concisely.

    The problems come when you think you already know what someone is saying or when you try to tell someone else what they are saying, like, "You wouldn't say this unless you mean this." Only the speaker can define their meaning. You don't have the right to choose for others, "words suited to convey" their meaning. We choose our own words. The responsibility is on you to understand or not to care.

    If the speaker's words are not 100% clear to you, you must ask them to clarify and then accept what they are saying as fact; otherwise, you are calling them a liar, and neither of you should be speaking at all. If one is a liar and tries to deceive through their words, you should depart from them. However, stop assuming you know what the others around you are saying by the words they use. You can't read minds. All that does is cause derision.

    And this is precisely how Scripture works. You must take the speaker's words as literal unless they are evident by the explanation that they are intended as metaphors through context or chronology.

    The Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts had no paragraph separation, punctuation, or capitalization rules. Therefore, the original languages spoke in streams of context. If the speaker speaks literally, everything he says after must be literal until he clearly states a metaphoric change. We cannot just assume back and forth that the speaker is either literal or metaphoric as we interpret their words. As an example this is the very reason for our differences on Paul's words in Hebrews 10. Paul says the Hebrews' sacrifices could not take away their sin; hence, his following words are literal.

    Unless the Bible writer clearly says something, you cannot assume anything. There is no difference between us speaking and the Bible. The Bible is made up of approximately 66 men speaking to us.

    However, since the entire Bible was written by a single individual over the span of 1500 years, it constantly refers to itself in differing locations. Again, this is a single individual speaking to us. So, as an example, the two olive trees in Revelation 11 refer to the two olive trees of Zechariah 4 and assist in explaining each other, but still through the rules of communication.

    Stop viewing others through your own experience and their words through your understanding of what someone should mean when using those words. No one has the same likes and dislikes as you. No one reacts to things the way you do. No one says things for the same reasons you would. Get to know others and why they say what they say, not telling them what they mean by what they say.

    That way of communicating was invented in the Garden of Eden. Remember, it was the satan who twisted God's words into something He did not intend. When you assume and speak for others through your own ideology, that makes you self-rightious and an agitator.

    This satanic influence into communication will be removed from God's kingdom one day, and glory to Him for that day.

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry New Member

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    Yes, but truth needs to be believed, or, assumed, as you would put it, right? or am I assuming again?

    No, anybody can read Christ's word and the NT at large, but understanding is granted by God to whom it relates, and based on faith.

    Yes, but the meaning may not accord with Scripture.

    Or ill informed - something you cannot say about Paul's testimony without calling him a liar.

    Right, but Christ's sacrifice did, for those in the new covenant - disbelieve it to your own detriment. You are your own worst enemy.

    Just my assumptions,


    Harry
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No, truth does not need to be believed or assumed to exist. Your belief does not affect the truth. The universe does not care what you think about it; facts remain.

    Regardless of what you believe or assume someone is saying, it doesn't change what they meant. There is only one truth.

    This was another assumption on your part when reading my words. If you took my words as a matter of fact, you would have more clearly understood them.

    "Jesus spoke in parables because He knew the people in general would assume." Joshua

    He "spoke," meaning verbally while He lived. The "people" means those in front of Him who heard Him speak. He knew they would "assume," that's the reason He gave His disciples for speaking in parables.

    I said nothing of reading His words thousands of years later. His true meanings are literally recorded in the text. However, people today still assume throughout the Bible, which is why there are SO MANY beliefs about what it says. Everyone's an island.

    Not everything you believe was given to you by God. Only if it is correct. You can deceive yourself into believing what you currently understand is accurate and from God. That is the condition all of us are in.

    That is irrelevant. Whether or not the speaker's words accord with Scripture is irrelevant to the truth of the speaker's intent.

    No, again, being "ill-informed" has nothing to do with the truth of the speaker's meaning. The speaker can be entirely inaccurate in what he is saying, but that does not change the absolute fact that he is the only one with the right to define what he is saying. The truth of his meaning has nothing to do with the factual nature of his words.

    How about you quite assuming that my understanding is a detriment and consider you could be wrong? Guess what? I do that every second of the day to keep away from that narcissistic attitude of always sounding like a know-it-all who needs to be right all the time and instead test every utterance through the text to see if they are so. If you'd stop and actually study what I am saying, you could either prove what you believe more surely or be corrected in wrong assumptions. Or, you could show me exactly where I am wrong in the text instead of just constantly touting what you believe.

    All you do is quote the same scripture over and over, which we are both explaining differently. I'm taking you to other scriptures that clarify that one, and you keep quoting the one, explaining your interpretation of it. I'm pretty quick; I got your understanding of Hebrews 10 the first time. I used to believe exactly as you do. Instead, how about trying to disprove me through scriptural evidence?

    You think your sins are removed, and you're perfect; that's your choice. I believe Paul is talking about a future event. If sins were removed, we wouldn't need to buy clothes from Jesus to cover them, Harry. According to Paul, we would be perfect if sins were removed, and he said he wasn't perfect yet. (2+2=4) We would no longer be conscious of sin within us. Are you not aware of the sin within you? Paul said he was constantly mindful of sin within him. Remember him saying he did not do what he wanted to do because of the sin within him? (Rom 7) Why is there sin in Paul if it was removed?

    Once sin is removed, there is no longer a sacrifice for it. You better hope you live the rest of your life perfectly, without a single sin, because, according to you, they will not be forgiven. Our nakedness of sin is covered today through the blood of Christ, where the Israelites needed multiple sacrifices to cover their sin. One day, sin will be removed forever, and we will be perfect, just like Paul says would happen when sin is removed.

    Paul's words in Hebrews 10 are literal, and you make them literal, metaphoric, literal, metaphoric, willy-nilly as you meander through the text. I mean, I guess I can go through the text word by word for you, but you aren't someone to test if these things are so; you're just quick to speak and slow to listen. (Prov 18:2)

    Joshua
     

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