Convictions - Right & Wrong

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Timothy Kline, Jun 9, 2024.

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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    That is an interesting metaphor I haven't heard before; very descriptive of what has happened to us; a transfusion of Abraham's faith wrought in us by the Great Doctor Jehovah Himself through Christ's sacrifice on our behalf; brilliant analogy. Jude 3
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So let's see: If we compare the Israelites' making of a calf and worshiping it to the righteous acts of those asking, "Lord Lord," their normally righteous acts are lawlessness because the Israelites sinned.

    I'm totally following you.

    Maybe you can help me out with this. I'm missing where the Bible tells me those who say, "Lord Lord," lacked faith and were self-seeking. Can you point me to those scriptures? That would be greatly appreciated.

    Please and thank you...

    That just seems to be the difference between you and me. Where you prefer to focus on your own intent, I prefer to focus on other's intent. I guess I just prefer the empathetic approach.

    Just me though... Everyone's different.

    So, that's what the Two Sons parable is saying. I guess I was misunderstanding it.

    I must have been wrong all along...

    Hmm, I wonder what Paul would say in response. You know, that whole seeing Jesus thing that converted him.

    Ooh, you must be confused, I didn't say anything about Christ being offered more than once, I said Christ's sacrifice is still being offered to us today. It still remains in place.

    "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." Heb 10:26

    Trust me, I get it. It's tough to understand the intent of other's words when focusing on your own. As you said, "It is just that a lot of times intent in others is not obvious to us, which is why we should focus on our own."

    My empathy approach was wrong all this time... I'll have to let my family know of my new discovery!

    Thanks...

    Now, however what if you're wrong? I'm not saying you are; however, I'm curious if you ever consider it. That danged old intent thing we were talking about just keeps popping up.

    Now
    • used, especially in conversation, to draw attention to a particular statement or point in a narrative.
    "Now, my first impulse was to run away"

    Click: (Interlinear of Heb 9:26)

    Hmm...

    There once was a man who bought a new car. He loved this car so much that one day he hired a mobile detailer to come and clean his new car. They did a fine job of cleaning it, as it was nice and shiny.

    Some days later this man accidentally drove through some mud, so he called the detailer again to come and clean his car. Now, however, this time there was a different outcome than last time. For the detailer removed the man's car from him, so that now he no longer has a car. He had no idea where it went, and is not cognitive of where it has gone.

    The End

    "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1Jhn 1:8

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    Yes, so why did they make the golden calf? Because they lacked faith that Moses would return from the holy mountain, to wit: 'Make gods for us to lead us out of this desert, for this Moses, we don't know what happened to him; it looks like he did a runner on us.'

    There are lots of 'Christian' outfits that are working to bring about the kingdom of God on earth through their good deeds, turning their converts into 'rice Christians' or 'paradise soon Christians,' as in the case of JWs.

    I already told you that Jesus defined their good works as lawlessness, to wit: 'Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness;' why can't you read and believe what He says?

    And there is nothing wrong with any of their works themselves, as Jesus says: 'when you go making gifts of mercy, do not blow a trumpet ahead of you,' and, 'take good care not to practice your righteousness in front of men in order to be observed by them,' or 'paying a tenth of the mint and the dill' - nothing wrong with any of their deeds, other than their intention for doing them, which is why Jesus calls them works of lawlessness - how come you don't know this?

    Yes, the people who will say, 'Lord, Lord,' could also be stealing, murdering and raping, but that is not what Jesus charges them with, if you would but notice.

    They were doing good thinks, like, prophesying in His Name, expelling demons in His Name and performing many powerful works in His Name - it was their motives of self righteousness and lack of faith in God fulfilling His promises, without needing their gracious services, that was the issue here.

    Even Abraham, God's friend, and a man accounted as righteous by Jehovah Himself, the father of all those having faith, tried to help God fulfill His promise by adopting young Hagar as secondary wife, and we all know what He thought of this 'good work' done out of disbelief that God could give him a son through Sarah, just as promised, showing that even good intentions behind actions, while necessary, are sometimes either not sufficient, or in surplus of bringing about God's righteousness.

    Yes, that is because I get judged by God on my intent, not that of others. My judging others is trivial, because it amounts to no more than identifying people by their fruits, as Jesus instructs me to do. Indulging people may not be in their best interest at times. I hail from the land where they call a spade a spade.

    One son had a change of mind and heart, while the other one seemed to have had no intention of keeping his word in the first place; so which one was more honest?

    Good point; although I always found curious him saying that he acted with a lack of faith, while so filled with a zeal for God, which is probably why he coined the term 'dead works' for his vicarious law keeping prior to being struck down by Christ. 1 Tim 1:13; Phi 3:5

    By the way, I believe that tours to Damascus are on special at the moment.

    But what is the point of His sacrifice still being offered to us today when, according to you, it never did anything more for people than was available under the old covenant?

    Yes, because those perfected in their conscience are accountable like Adam was before he sinned.

    I read the Word of God with the deliberate intent of believing it, and leave the consequences to Him - what more can I do?

    The guy simply hired the wrong car detailer; he should have asked me, I know Someone who does the job once, and it remains perfect perpetually; and He does it for free to those who believe Him. Heb 10:14

    There is a difference between having no sin, and it being put away, resulting in a perfect conscience due to being declared righteous. Heb 9:9,26; 10:14


    Harry
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Why do you assume Jesus is speaking about the works they claimed they did? If the works they claimed they did in faith and His name are usually righteous, why can't Jesus' words be about works that are normally considered lawlessness? Most of Christendom believes faith is all that is needed, and one can live as they please.

    But I get it: When you're focused on feelings, you'll read that into everything. When you believe God judges intent before actions, you'll read intent into everything. When I believe actions speak louder than words, I'll read that into the account.

    The problem with your view is that every intent you have is selfish. When you intend to do good, you are intending to do it for your own salvation. (At least that's what you told me: you serve God to gain salvation.) You cannot act without it being selfish. You want to do good because it makes you feel good. You can have actions for intent sake or actions for action's sake.

    Your intent can only be selfish, and only your actions can prove your heart condition. Paul said it: You just have to put it all together.

    Yep, we certainly have a different view. I guess a man can beat his wife every day and apologize and tell her he never intended to do it, and that's okay. Intent is more important than actions, and he'll be judged on whether he intended to do it or not.

    "Indulging people may not be in their best interest." Hmm...

    We certainly are different. I prefer to ALWAYS indulge others, at all times. I let them define their own meaning. I don't have to agree with it, like it, or care at all what they say. But with me, they're going to have their own voice.

    I'm from the "Show Me State." Just because I let others define their meaning has nothing to do with what I accept as truth.

    I define my meaning, and you define yours. Hence, it is evident that I can understand you and repeat your intent, and you struggle to understand mine.

    So, who really cares more about intent? I let everyone define their own intent, and you focus on your own.

    I don't read anything about their heart condition in the story. If you want to focus on their feelings, that's up to you. Let me know where to find those scriptures. Just like the lost feeling scriptures of those who say, "Lord Lord."

    You may think that the moral of the Two Sons parable is the son's feelings...lol But I'll stick with the moral of the story being actions speak louder than words, or intent.

    That's what God's Word teaches me. Love is an action, not a feeling.

    There's no reason to go back and forth about this. We obviously have a different view of how God judges us.

    The Hebrews needed continual sacrifice, whereas we only needed one.

    Hmm, I read every one is accountable from Adam to us. I guess when you think you're perfect now, you have a different view.

    I don't buy it. Paul said his sin lived in him, and he was not perfect.

    My view has no paradoxes, hence why I have come to accept it.

    You seem to have missed the point. The text says, "Now, however." It does not say "Now" as in defining a time period 2000 years ago.

    Now, however - directs the reader to the next point.

    Once - the number of times.

    Consummation of ages - defines when. (At the end of all other ages.)

    Takes away sin - sin no longer within people.

    Is revealed - manifest.

    In the original Greek, you wouldn't have a text discussing the same time period twice. Meaning that the text wouldn't say "now," meaning the present time, and then go on to say "now" again when saying "consumption of ages." Your reading has the text defining the time period twice.

    No, rather, the text says, "Now, however." I gave you the Interlinear link...

    Well, that's good for you. I know I'm not perfect, and it has nothing to do with a lack of faith as you tried to push onto me. It has to do with accurate knowledge.

    If you say so, you do you...

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    Is there a difference between an object and its shadow?

    It sounds like Christ's death and resurrection has been wasted on you, and you might as well be under the Law.

    Its like saying that having a picture of a gold coin in your pocket is the same as having the real thing, because the photo is also real after all; good luck trying to buy something with it.

    It doesn't have to; the sense is still the same, namely, that Someone manifested Himself to put sin away by means of His sacrifice, and this act ended the ages prior to it, it is really that simple.

    Yes, but to you there is no difference between the two; both old and new covenant are shadows looking forward to 'reality 2.0' at the end of the 1000 year kingdom reign.

    Yes, it means the state of being alive towards whatever one is conscious of; hence, having no consciousness of sin means being dead to sin - unresponsive to it, by having one's sinful body deactivated - and having a good conscience as a result. Ro 6:2,6

    Christians are such as are called upon to close the gap between the indicative and the imperative, with the indicative being - for example - that Christ became dead to sin on our behalf; hence the imperative for us to act upon that fact - appropriated by faith - and be dead to sin as well.

    Perfection, in this case, moral perfection, equates to righteousness - what God deems as right intent and action towards Him or another person in relation to an individual - hence, His declaring righteous those whom He adopts as Christ's brothers on the basis of their faith in Him; that is how I would put it, which I think is the same meaning that PaulAche is conveying.

    In the world, authority derives from position, whereas in Christianity it derives from truth alone.

    For example, Christ placed the 12 apostles in positions of authority, but when Peter went along with 'certain men from James' in their attempt at subverting the truth of the good news, the Holy Spirit transferred to Paul, an outsider, to speak truth to power, so that James and the other apostles in Jerusalem were held to account for their part in allowing some from among them to cause trouble in Antioch with Judaizing speeches, trying to subvert the souls of the brothers there. Acts 15; Gal 2


    Harry
     
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    Harry Member

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    Sorry, but that is exactly what he is saying: " . . . to put sin away through the sacrifice of Himself." Heb 9:9,14,26; 10:1,2

    Sorry, this sentence contradicts your previous one, and is also wrong in itself, because Paul's point is the exact opposite, namely that if these sacrifices were effective at removing sin, there would be no need for offering them on an ongoing basis - why continue with sacrifices if there is no more consciousness of sin?

    In Romans 7, Paul describes his struggle with sin when convicted and condemned by Law before he died to it in Christ, which is why he starts out in chapter 8 with, 'those in Christ having no condemnation,' and who therefore are not conscious of any either, because there is none.

    Every Christian needs to go experientially through Romans 7 before reaching Romans 8, no matter how long it may take, because that step cannot be skipped; hence the cognitive dissonance while stuck in chapter 7 before reaching chapter 8, the glorious freedom of the children of God. Mat 5:17-20

    Everything else you say I agree with.


    Harry
     
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    Roland Brown

    Roland Brown New Member

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    You're exactly right. The apostle Paul does say that we have no more condemnation because through Christ we are justified.

    that doesn't mean we are no longer conscious of sin. It means that we are more conscious of sin because the Christ nature, the God nature lives within us and makes us conscious of it so that we can turn from it.

    Could you imagine going through life doing everything wrong and not realizing that you're doing it wrong? That would stink wouldn't it? I mean you wouldn't be able to fix it because you would be unconscious of it being wrong. What kind of perfection would that be?

    In the same way, if you're walking in the spirit and you didn't realize that what you were doing was contrary to the spirit, what kind of spirit would you really have?
    My Bible tells me that God is not the author of confusion, but rather that He is the author of peace and of love and of a sound mind.

    So if you're walking through life unconscious of doing wrong, you have the devil's spirit in you and not God's my friend, because God wants you to be able to find your faults and your errors and allow Him to fix them.

    This isn't an act of judging you or condemning you. This is an act of loving you enough to not leave you the same as you were before you met Christ.

    What I hear you saying is that we can do anything we want and we're okay because the blood of Christ has made us unconscious of it. Therefore, how can you be doing wrong if you have no consciousness of wrong well my friend. That is a Wicca teaching and Wicca is a wicked belief system that comes straight from the devil.

    You want to know who's unconscious of sin? Those who are bound to sin and walk in sin on a daily basis because they don't know Christ. Until they come to the knowledge of Christ and the Holy Spirit, convicts them of the fact that they are sinners. They have no consciousness of their sin because it is just their very nature. We are all born into sin.

    Once you become a born-again child of God, you are no longer unconscious to sin. You become aware of sin and you become aware of how to turn from sin. But if we fall into sin after conversion, we have forgiveness by grace through faith in Christ, our Lord Jesus of Nazareth. Yes, this is why there is no condemnation to those who are called according to his purpose.

    This is also why the apostle Paul says that he doesn't even judge himself. He allows the Holy Spirit to judge him and convict him of wrongs, convince him to change and in obedience he listens.

    This is why he has no condemnation because he obeys. He asks forgiveness, he turns from it and he runs towards the prize and the mark that he is to reach in the high calling of Christ!

    Whenever the Bible says that we are unconscious to sin, it means that we no longer sin unknowingly. We are now aware of the sin we commit because the spirit within us tells us that we are sending. This is so that we can work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Before Christ you sin without knowing your sinning because the spirit of disobedience or Satan is working in you. You cannot be warned that you're doing wrong by something or someone who is in and of itself or himself wrong. The devil's not going to tell you all right. You're about to do wrong but you're going to have fun. He says you know this is okay. Go ahead and have fun. How can you be conscious of sin when everything in you is saying you're okay?

    So also when you have the Holy Spirit in you, how can you do wrong and not realize it whenever everything in your being is going, Hey man, you know this ain't right.

    So yes we are conscious of sin as Christians. No, we are not condemned in our sins because we have forgiveness through Christ when we ask his forgiveness and sincerely mean it in our hearts and begin to turn from it and to do righteously.
     
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    Roland Brown

    Roland Brown New Member

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    Also, I would like to defend Joshua when you said that the old and the New testaments or covenants were both a shadow of world 2.0 and that that's all the same. Yes it is all the same. The old covenant was a foreshadowing of the New covenant. The New covenant is the beginning of the new world and no, we are not under the law but even the apostle Paul since you like to quote him so frequently says himself that we uphold the law. Therefore, if you're not upholding the law, you're not walking in obedience to the law of Christ because even Christ himself upheld the law
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    "And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the anointing from him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him." 1 Joh 2:27

    "For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God." 1 Co 2:11
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    " . . . for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing." Gal 2:21


    Harry
     
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    Roland Brown

    Roland Brown New Member

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    Jesus said that if the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch. So you go ahead and you lead the blind right into the ditch my friend by teaching them this damnable teaching. As for me and my house, we will uphold the law of Jehovah for this is right in the sight of God. Maybe you should read Ecclesiastes and see what the whole duty of man is. We're not under law, but we uphold it for if we love God, he writes his commandments upon our heart and he becomes our God and we become his people
     
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    Roland Brown

    Roland Brown New Member

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    The statements of yours are truly spoken as a man who wants nothing to do with being held responsible for his own actions and well, stop at nothing to have his ears tickled so that he can walk according to his own desires instead of to the law of Christ.

    Even I fall into sin. But I know when I fall into sin and I hate the feeling of it. I hate that I hurt God and I hate that I have disobeyed Christ because the conviction tears me to pieces. But once I ask forgiveness for those sins, I'm giving forgiveness for him and I then must forgive myself to be able to walk on and the peace of God.

    So I'm not saying that how many better than anybody. All I'm saying is if you are not upholding the law and you're trying to defend your beliefs that you don't have to uphold the law. You're trying to make yourself feel better about the lifestyle that you are living so that you don't have to feel the pain of being held responsible for your own actions before God.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes...

    "For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities," Heb 10:1

    The Law was the picture of the gold coin, and Christ was the real thing.

    "These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." Col 2:17

    "Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God’s right hand." Col 3:1

    You say He removed sin at His sacrifice. When was it applied to you, 2000 years ago?

    Surely, you claim you came to Christ at some point, so your sin would have to be removed after such a point and not before. Correct?

    So, when was your sin taken away?

    "You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world." Eph 2:2

    You have difficulty comprehending. I said, "fulfilled in Christ." The Old Covenant was fulfilled in Christ. The New Covenant is a current betrothal that is fulfilled/confirmed in the future.

    Consciousness:

    a: the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
    b: the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
    c: AWARENESS

    Well, I'm glad you feel you're morally perfect. Personally, I'll stick with Paul and say I am not.

    Arguing from a position of authority means saying your position comes from above. Your views are personal interpretations.

    Joshua
     
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    Harry

    Harry Member

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    'Have been' ~ past tense indicative; 'set your sights on' ~ imperative } cause and effect to be implemented by the believer in faith.

    'He that has the Son,' [present, indicative] 'has this life.' [present, indicative] - no imperative there, just cause and effect. 1Joh 5:12

    Good question;

    so, I became a sinner 6000 years ago when my physical forefather transgressed, but 2000 years ago my spiritual Father made me alive in Christ Jesus by raising me up with Him from the dead, and hiding my life with Him. Col 3:1-3; Eph 1:4

    Halfway through last century I came into this world, to then find myself alienated from God through the sin I inherited, without my doing or consent, as a result of Adam's transgression, the consequences of which - sin, suffering and death - I was subjected to by the will of God, which led to my participating in it, much to my displeasure - the pathos of being 'thrown under the bus' by Him; a betrayal of trust. Ro 8:20,21

    Fortunately I wasn't asked to be, or I stupidly might have rejected the job, and God's purpose in connection with it.

    So my sin was pardoned and removed 2000 years ago in Christ, but I was only made aware of that fact half way through my life, when God revealed His Son in me - Him looking for me rather than me coming to Him. Gal 1:16

    My sin resulted from my sinful nature; it did not lead to me becoming a sinner, as it did with Adam. Ro 5:14

    I was dragged through sin kicking and screaming; I felt no 'temporary enjoyment,' just the sense of obligation to experience what I was infected with, until the day I was made to realize that it had all 'been accomplished' by Christ on my behalf.

    The terms of the new covenant are fulfilled now on those contracted into it, namely, having God's law written on their hearts without anyone having to teach them, having one's sin removed completely to the point of having no consciousness of it, etc.

    Yes, exactly, the 'quality or state of being unaware of sin within oneself' to the point of being dead to it - that is precisely what Christ died for, and the Father accomplished in those whom He called.

    "For it is by one sacrificial offering that He has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually." Heb 10:14

    "Most truly I say to you, What we know we speak and what we have seen we bear witness of, but you people do not receive the witness we give." Joh 3:11


    Harry
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Your personal sins were taken away, and you were made perfect and had no consciousness of sin 2000 years ago, even before you were repentant? If you say so... o_O

    Christ's sacrifice applies to repentant sinners! Only after repentance are we forgiven through His sacrifice! You weren't forgiven before you were repentant. What nonsense...

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jhn 1:9

    Christ's sacrifice applies retroactively based on faith, period. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and see if it still applies to you. It's based on your actions now!

    I'm done discussing this.
     
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    PaulAche

    PaulAche Guest

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    Consider the 144k were destined to exist long prior to Jesus Christ being born. In a sense, all 144k sins were forgiven the moment the Sacred Secret manifested into existence. Gods solution to sin was foreordained to produce 144k kings and priests purchased through Jesus Christs blood to reconcile the world to himself. In Gods eyes it was already done, he merely had to wait for the people to be born who would become the holy ones. He did not foreordain specific individuals, but rather knew that the spirit would identify 144k humans, and that their mother the New Jerusalem would give birth to them when the time was right, just like when the time was right for Jesus to come to earth and purchase them with his blood.

    The holy ones have faith that their sins are forgiven, and that their conscience has been cleansed and washed of all sin, and declared righteous with the spirit of God.

    (1Co 6:11) “. . .But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”
    The holy ones are ambassadors who substitute for Christ. His blood makes them spiritually perfect just as he was. How else could they be substitutes if they still had spots of sin upon them?

    (Ro 5:10-11) “. . .For if, when we were enemies, we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, now that we have become reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we are also exulting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”

    (2Co 5:19-21) “. . .namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and he committed the word of the reconciliation to us. 20 We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” 21 The one who did not know sin he made to be sin for us, that we might become God’s righteousness by means of him.”​
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    PaulAche, I don't have a problem with this, and I agree entirely. Our sins are currently forgiven; we are washed clean, being sanctified, and declared righteous.

    My separation is in Hebrews 9 and 10, when sins are taken away, having no awareness of them and God forgets them, at which point no sacrifice for sin is offered. This is very specific wording that cannot have occurred yet.

    I can wash my clothes, and they will be clean. If they are removed from me, I will no longer be clothed. (Rev 3:18)

    Our Lord's sacrifice remains in place, as many still have their sins forgiven before the full number of Gentiles have come in. Only after that number is complete are sins removed all at once. There will be no sin in all of God's kingdom.

    "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery. Brothers, a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob, “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Rom 11:25-27

    Our Lord does not remove sin until after all His enemies have been subject to Him. This has not occurred yet. Heb 8:2

    I don't often speak about my position or role in God's kingdom because it's a responsibility, not a position of authority. I am a slave to righteousness. However, the chronology has been my work. What I have explained removes all paradoxes. My latest response to you in (Sacrifices & Sin) goes into more detail on the chronology.

    Joshua
     
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    PaulAche

    PaulAche Guest

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    I'm sure you realize that the quotation marks signify a reference to another verse in the bible. The verse being quoted by Paul comes from:

    (Isa 59:20) “20 “And to Zion the Repurchaser will certainly come, and to those turning from transgression in Jacob,” is the utterance of Jehovah.”​

    The taking away of sins comes about when the covenant is established upon mankind, as it says "this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins". You could also say it this way that 'their sins were taken away when the covenant was established.' This happened at Pentecost when Jesus Christ poured out the holy spirit on 120 individuals cleansing them of sin, perfecting their spirit in the eyes of God who was now reconciling the world to himself through Jesus Christ.


    (Jer 31:33) ““For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.””
    After what days is Jehovah referring to in Jeremiah? After the days of the mosaic law being replaced by the new and perfect covenant through Jesus Christ.

    Paul equates having the new spirit as having the firstfruits. The firstfruits were to the be the best of the earliest fruits of the season, no doubt spotless and without blemish.

    (Ro 8:23) “23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes. . .”

    (Heb 10:10) “. . .By the said “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.”
    If the covenant is not established, as you say, until God has put all Jesus' enemies under his feet, death being the final enemy, then we must conclude that the covenant is not established until death and Hades are hurled into the lake of fire. This occurs at the end of the thousand years. Are you suggesting then that the holy ones, who are kings and priests with Jesus Christ in heaven for a thousand years, do not receive perfection until then?

    Regarding the great crowd, your perspective would hold true, but not for the holy ones who have already been repurchased by Jesus Christ. For once the thousand years end, and death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, all of mankind will now be just as Adam & Eve were prior to the sin, perfect in physical and spiritual natures.
     
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    Roland Brown

    Roland Brown New Member

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    Brother Joshua, these are the days that the apostle Paul wrote about, where people will be turned away from the truth and into the ways of Satan. We can't expect a people who have itching ears that they want scratched to listen to sound doctrine that may just irritate them a little bit more than they already are. What those people need to realize is that scratching the itch is only temporary relief from the irritation of the itch. The only way to cure the itch is to meditate it with ointment. The balm of Gilead, the Blood of Christ!

    But they don't want to give up their sin and their lifestyles of selfishness in the flesh! So they look for doctrine, no matter how absurd or untrue it may be, so they can continue in it without conviction and without shame eating them alive.

    Don't let her discourage you. My brother just keep preaching and doing that which Jehovah has called you to do. I'm going to continue in the same.

    I fall short and sin and I don't like it, but it's the human nature. We're not going to win every battle. The difference is I want to hear sound doctrine and I want the Holy Spirit to convict me of my wrongs. That way I can ask forgiveness and grow in Grace and overcome it by the power of God that dwells within me by his Holy Spirit, in Jesus name!!

    So by all means preach the gospel at all times be instant in season and out of season. Speak it in the sound and doctrinally accurate manner because I for one want to be convicted. If I'm doing something wrong and if I'm teaching something wrong I want to be corrected. You have a number one audience with me.

    My brother, may Jehovah God bless you and may he keep you in perfect peace as you continue to preach and teach in Jesus name. Amen!!
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The New and Old Covenants were promises that needed to be fulfilled. The Old Covenant was confirmed and held in place during the 70th week of Dan 9, which was the fulfillment of the Davidic and Mosaic covenants in Christ during the 70th week from 29CE to 35CE. The Old Covenant was just a promise prior to that.

    The New Covenant is a promise, like a betrothment, that needs to be fulfilled/confirmed in the future at the marriage of the Lamb. The New is not confirmed or fulfilled yet; it is a promise.

    A betrothment was a promise, and for all intents and purposes, identical to a marriage from which one needed a divorce to dissolve. That, however, was not the fulfillment of a marriage or its confirmation that would occur later.

    "Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit." Mth 1:18

    "And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly." Mth 1:19

    "For I am jealous as to you with the jealousy of God. For I have betrothed you to one husband, to present a pure virgin to Christ." 2Cor 11:2

    "Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom." Mth 25;1

    ---

    "This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void." Gal 3:17

    "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." Heb 8:6

    "Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." Eph 2:12

    "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." Heb 9:15

    "He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he made, for a thousand generations," Psm 105:8

    "Yet the LORD was not willing to destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and since he had promised to give a lamp to him and to his sons forever." 2Ch 21:7

    "For when I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I promised to give to their fathers, and they have eaten and are full and grown fat, they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise me and break my covenant." De 21:20

    -------

    Our Lord's promise to rule a kingdom has not arrived yet.

    According to Jeremiah, "after those days" is referring to the writing of the Law on hearts.

    "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

    That literally is the Covenant God speaks of in Jer. The Covenant is the writing upon the hearts. Saying that this statement refers to the replacement of the Law by the New Covenant 2000 years ago is an assumption without foundation.

    In fact, Paul clarifies that "after those days." includes enemies as a footstool.

    ""But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet." Heb 10:12,13

    "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds, I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more. Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin." Heb 10:16-18

    "At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him." Heb 8:2

    -------

    As I said, the chronology is my responsibility.

    Joshua
     

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