It helps to keep in mind that we don't currently judge salvation, whether we believe a subject is salvational or not. Unfortunately, everyone is an Island today. That know-it-all, all-ready attitude is rapent. One must always consider that we could be wrong unless we deceive ourselves. The twisting of others' words and the personal truth identity were invented in the Garden of Eden and will be removed from God's kingdom. Only the speakers have the right to define their meaning. All assumptions and personal truth ideologies will be gone. For the last 2000 years, there has been blindness/hardening in spiritual Israel. God's Word has been inundated with those who believe they can read into it whatever they wish. They believe they can interpret others' words based on how they speak or see the world. However, as I said, only the speaker can define their meaning. "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Rom 11:25 We do not have the right to tell someone what they should or should not, can or cannot say. Someone says what they wish, and it's the listener's responsibility to understand the speaker. Anything beyond this is selfishness and evil. I'm not saying you are doing any of these things personally, Roland. I just bring this up as often as I can. My family and I discuss this quite frequently. One will find peace in their household if they listen instead of thinking they already know everything. Joshua
I don't think I know everything brother, but I do know that the Word says in the last days perilous times will come men will be lovers of themselves. Rather than lovers of God. They would be wanting to have their ears tickled and not adhering to sound doctor. I'm judging no man, but I am saying that we are in those days that he spoke of. And sadly, too many people think that there are many truths when there is only one truth, and that is only found in Jesus. Jehovah's the only one who can provide it, and anything found outside of this is lies wrapped in a blanket to look like truth. Again, I judge no Man. Your personal beliefs or your personal beliefs, just like my personal beliefs are mine. But when it comes to biblical doctrine there are no personal beliefs, only the Truth.
I completely agree, brother. Where some may believe that personal truth exists, I believe there is only one Truth: just as you. Quite literally, the universe doesn't care what we think. Truth is truth... Joshua
I agree with you, and most of what you said in your post, however we are really discussing the cleansing of the spirit towards the holy ones, and whether their spirit has been perfected in Christ. I am going to try and keep the post related to that topic instead of going off on tangents which easily happen within these discussions. Hopefully through the answer I give to Roland, you will also discern what it is that we(Harry and I) are talking about. Roland, your comment above highlights the difference between those who don't want to serve Jehovah, and those who do. The 144k who will rule with Christ as kings and priests DO want to give up their sin and their lifestyles of selfishness in the flesh. The entire chapter of Romans 6 talks about this. The very first verse Paul asks "Consequently, what shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, that undeserved kindness may abound? 2 Never may that happen! Seeing that we died with reference to sin, how shall we keep on living any longer in it?" The holy ones do not look for doctrine to make them unaccountable in their consciences and to God, rather they look to the spirit which guides them to the fruitages of the spirit. With the spirit of God upon them, they are able to create within themselves the reality of Gods purpose for them by choosing to do good works rather than selfishness in the flesh. Their whole purpose is to show the world good works. (Eph 2:10) “. . .For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.” Although imperfect, in Gods eyes these holy ones have been cleansed of sin through Jesus Christs blood, as all mankind will eventually be. They have been given a token of what is to come. (2Co 1:20-22) “20 For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him. Therefore also through him is the “Amen” [said] to God for glory through us. 21 But he who guarantees that YOU and we belong to Christ and he who has anointed us is God. 22 He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.” (2Co 5:4-5) “4 In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit.” (Eph 1:13-14) “. . .By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise.” The token of what is to come is a cleansed conscience in Gods eyes, perfect in spirit. Why on earth would anybody want to give that up Roland? I tell you 144K won't give it up, and that is a guarantee because “. . .we are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul.”(Heb 10:39)
Can you show that Heb 10 is discussing only the 144k and not all of God's people? Where do you read only their sins are removed, only they are perfected? Joshua
Well put and understood; but even independent of personal relevance, any objective reading of the NT will reach the same conclusion, which implies that, absent any disability in comprehension, only spiritual reasons would preclude one from grasping this simple meaning of Scripture. I might be judging an effect by its probable cause here. Harry
Both Hebrews 9 and 10 are very clear that Paul is discussing the 144k. However, before we venture down that avenue, I would like your thoughts regarding the token in advance the inheritance, the spirit in our heart. What does that mean to you Joshua?
The 144k are anointed, as the 120 were in the upper room at Pentecost. However, as you know, my specific question is regarding Heb 9 and 10. Joshua
Yes I suppose you are right. Reading through the scriptures there are many things that if one simply lets the bible interpret itself it becomes quite clear. Yet, for some reason most of the 'Christian' world believes in a trinity, hellfire, and the immortal soul, thus it is evident that Jehovah has not opened up their eyes of understanding spiritually speaking. My dad is convinced that he is going to be raptured away by his trinitarian God before the great tribulation. I've shown him 'he that endures to the end, is the one who will be saved', and yet there is no reasoning on the matter with him. We got into a heated discussion the other day because he says the Jewish nation is still Gods chosen nation, and was defending Israel regarding the current genocide of innocent Palestinians in Gaza. His justification was 'that's what war is'. The fact that innocent men, woman, and children were being killed had no effect on him. And he considers himself to be a devout Christian. I asked him, what God does Israel worship if they are committing this kind of act against another human, when Jesus said that we are to love our neighbor? He basically ignored any attempt at reason, and quickly spewed the narrative that FOX, and the 700 club repeat to those who look to the world for answers. It is apparent to me that he doesn't want to know the truth, but rather to be told what the truth is. Anyways, just sharing.
I find when you choose not to answer a question you create a new avenue that only leads away from the original discussion. I think it is better if we focus on what it means to be perfect as respects our conscience, and how it is that the holy ones know this. 9 and 8? You said 9 and 10 earlier. Regardless, there are plenty of scriptures within this thread to answer your question. What does that mean to have the token in advance Joshua? What is the token, and what is it in advance of?
Wow, you are oblivious every time I speak to you. I answered your question. My response was the answer to your questions, PaulAche. Your question was in regards to the token itself. You didn't ask "what it was in advance of." You asked, "I would like your thoughts regarding the token in advance the inheritance." And I answered, "The 144k are anointed, as the 120 were in the upper room at Pentecost." And keep in mind, you have no idea who you are talking to. I could be one of the two witnesses, for all you know. So don't take some stance with me that I am not able to understand something. Just because I don't flaunt an annointing like you do, doesn't mean it isn't so... And I meant 9 and 10... I answer your question, but you can't answer mine? Why are you here? You are cocky... Not a good look at all, man... Joshua
That's the best answer you can give? When somebody asks you what the token means to you, and you simply state "The 144k are anointed, as the 120 were in the upper room at Pentecost." What does that mean the 'token in advance of'?
You state I don't answer your question and then have a problem with my answer? Obviously, you have no idea how communication works. I get to speak for myself, and you get to speak for yourself. Even my 13yo child understands this concept. Did I say that's all it means to me? I answered what it was, just like you asked what my thoughts were on it. I could write a book about what it is exactly, and what it means, PaulAche. I answered precisely so that if there were further questions, you could ask. Even though you were the one skirting my question. Who do you think you are? This is a waste of my brain cells... And quite honestly, beneath my cognitive abilities.
I didn't ask what it was, I asked what it means to you. Nor did I ask you to write a book, of which you apparently can, but all you can spare is 13 words. Sounds like cognitive dissonance is kicking in...
Obviously, you have no idea what cognitive dissonance is. You didn't ask me what it means to me; you asked what my thoughts were on it and then claimed I didn't answer your question. I answered how I wanted too. I was very concise... I GET TO SPEAK FOR ME. If I want to answer with one word, guess what? I will............... You don't get to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't say. Do you know where people like you get the ability to twist others' words, assume, and tell others what they mean and what they should say? Satan invented that in the Garden of Eden, PaulAche. You are demonstrating evilness that God is coming to banish. Joshua
In Heb 3:1 Paul refers to the audience addressed in this letter as 'holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling,' and that also applies to the NT as a whole, which is why I distinguish between God's 'nominal people,' the 'visible Church,' and the 'invisible, as yet unrevealed, Church,' which is the Christian congregation of those 'hidden with Christ in God,' the true body of Christ, ready to be revealed at His second coming. Col 3:4 The 'nominal Church' today - Christendom and its western civilization - seems like a seedbed environment and tutor leading to Christ for the chosen ones, just as Judaism was for Christians in the first century, but also as persecutors of Christ's brothers. The 'rapture' is actually the getting 'caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air' of 1 Thes 4:17, at the coming of Christ for His 1000 year parousia, but the erroneous 'pre-trib' concept comes from Paul referring to Armageddon as 'tribulation' in 2 Thes 1:6, where they conflate God's 'repaying tribulation to those who make tribulation for you,' as the 'great tribulation' on Christianity 42 month before Christ's return, because Armageddon is sort of like a 'tribulation' for the beast worshipers that the chosen ones have been 'caught away' from before it happens. Cattle are neither human nor your neighbor, some would say. The only 'genocide' in history that it is a criminal offence to 'deny,' may well become the foundation for the new global religion to unite mankind, with shrines to it erected already all over the western world, as 'conspiracy theorists' might say. Don't give up here, I always like reading your contribution to the discussion, Paul. Harry