"Decieved by a prophet"

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Get out of her, Dec 30, 2021.

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    Get out of her New Member

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    Greetings my dear brothers and sisters:

    I'm a new member so of course I am browsing through both old and new posts and this is account found here in Ist Kings Chapter 13 that wallflower and Tsiphah brought up under one of the threads is the first thing that really caught my attention. Really appreciated them bringing it up since I believe it is a good example of seemingly countless things that not only the Watchtower organization but organized religion altogether seems to want to simply ignore. I very much agree with their feelings on the matter, and in fact I will insist that the reason these religious leaders very much shy away from such things is because any genuine effort on their part to cover them in any comprehensive manner will only reveal that they have no real understanding of them, and thus lack Jehovah's holy spirit altogether.

    With that said I happen to understand scriptures like Romans 11:25 to mean that NONE of us will posses FULL understanding of the Holy Scriptures until the Millennial Reign, including even Jehovah's prophets. Nevertheless I personally have found that a very prayerful and persistent approach to the scriptures along with carefully factoring in things like the specific setting and context being considered and the symbolisms that have at least EXPLICITLY been assigned to various things actually makes such accounts suddenly and vastly more interesting and enlightening.

    In this particular case the symbolisms assigned specifically to the ancient tribes of Judah and Issachar seem to very much fit the bill since we are dealing with both a lion and a donkey engaging in some rather interesting behaviors particularly when bearing in mind the setting we find them in, or should we say--being represented. (Ge 49:9-11, 14) Bear in mind these things themselves were ultimately designed to point prophetically and symbolically in turn to the SPIRITUAL nation of Israel that would eventually comprise their "reality." (He 8:5) (Col 2;17)

    I am a very busy person like probably most of you, but I nonetheless hope that at least some might appreciate my efforts over the next few days or even weeks to genuinely cover this account in 1st Kings which I am certain can be scripturally demonstrated with references and sound reasoning as a prophetic drama that is absolutely inundated with deep symbolic spiritual meaning. (Ro 12;1) (Ac17:11) Ultimately the entire Bible is of course jam packed with priceless spiritual treasures that very much merit persistent digging on our part. (Pr 2:4) (Mt 7:7 11:25)

    Many people will of course disagree (and often even strongly so) with things that ANYONE might have to share, but I would like my dear brothers and sisters to understand in advance that as long as they at least endeavor to maintain a loving and respectful approach to things this does not at all mean I will be getting angry or resentful towards them. Even if I do get upset at times I have actually developed a reputation for maintaining a respectful and loving behavior towards everyone nonetheless, and even if it involves being very frank or honest with them.

    Agape love;
    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I look forward to your insights, dear friend...

    Joshua
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    Thank you so much for your encouraging words Joshua.

    "And here there was a man of God that had come out of Judah by the word of Jehovah to Bethel, while Jeroboam was standing by the altar to make sacrificial smoke. Then he called out against the altar by the word of Jehovah and said: "O altar, altar, this is what Jehovah has said, "Look! A son born to the house of David whose name is Josiah, and he will certainly sacrifice upon you the priests of the high places that are sacrificing upon you, and men's bones he will burn upon you." And he gave a portent on that day saying: This is the portent of which Jehovah has spoken: "Look! The altar is ripped apart, and the fatty ashes that are upon it are spilled out."



    First of all the setting this account here in 1 Kings Chapter 13 is found in which I'd have to insist is ALWAYS crucial to factor in is clearly one of yet another national apostasy against Jehovah. When we in turn take into account the actual scriptural definition of these "apostasies" spoken of in accounts like 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 which in fact is explicitly found at Daniel 11:30-32, the fact is we are already in a much better position to begin grasping the extremely interesting symbolisms that absolutely permeate this entire Chapter of 1 Kings. Granted the events being recorded here took place before either Samaria OR Judea had officially experienced a "divorcing" from Jehovah for "acting wickedly against the covenant," but it should be clear based on the context alone that even a "LEAVING of the holy covenant" is precisely what is being represented here, and this actually continues to be confirmed throughout this prophetic drama. (Jer 3:8)


    But particularly in view of things like the fact that a very key thing has been broken here, (namely the "holy covenant" at least for the sake of this prophetic /symbolic drama) and the name Josiah literally means –may Jehovah give or HEAL, as well as the fact that when Jehovah's "two witnesses" or figurative "inspectors/spies" arrive on the earth they are ALWAYS involved in RENEWING this broken covenant, are we already beginning to sense that a messianic pattern is being pictured for us here? (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (Jos 2:1) (Lu 19:44 22:28, 29) (Hag 1:12, 13)


    With that said, would the fact that there are precisely TWO prophets of Jehovah being presented to us in this drama be among the things that might tend to confirm we are already on the right track here? Is it perhaps merely a coincidence that at least one of them is identified as having come from the tribe of Judah? (Ge 49:8-10) And with this rather dire "portent" in mind, how about the fact that every time these two "inspectors of Christ's brothers" FINISH their prophesying and succeed in assisting Jehovah with another RENEWING of the kingdom covenant, a destruction of God's enemies always begins to unfold right alongside the salvation or deliverance that ALSO now begins to be furnished by him? (Ex 14:26-31)


    I suspect we have already begun to discern we are indeed considering yet another messianic representation here or even pattern that is always repeated in connection with another foretold "coming of the kingdom" and its commensurate "healing" or restoration of true worship upon what is identified as even a "CONSTANTLY devastated place." (Eze 38:8) So the question really at this point would be—what particular messages would Jehovah be endeavoring to convey to his anointed ones in this SPECIFIC illustration or drama? And since we already know at this point that the setting being depicted here is the very same one we once again find ourselves in at this very moment, namely one in which a broken holy marriage covenant has once again reduced even the more "DISCREET" ones among the anointed into mere "sleeping virgins" or even "barren widows" as opposed to "brides of the Lamb," could these messages prove to be ones that only a "few" among these potential brides would NOT find as "offensive," and even as a "stone of stumbling"? (Mt 22:14 25:1, 2, 5, 10) (La 1:1, 4) (Re 21:2, 9) (Isa 54:1-4) (Jer 15:9) (Mal 3:2, 3) (Ro 9:33)


    Jehovah willing, let's by all means pick up the discussion with these questions beginning with my next post as we continue considering this account here at 1st Kings chapter 13.


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    4 "And it came about that as soon as the king heard the word of the true God that he had called out against the altar in Bethel, Jeroboam at once thrust out his hand from off the altar, saying: "You men, grab hold of him"! Immediately his hand that he had thrust out against him became dried up, and he was not able to draw it back to himself. 5 And the altar itself was ripped apart so that the fatty ashes were spilled out from the altar, according to the portent that the man of the true God had given by the word of Jehovah." (1 Ki 13:4, 5)


    Are we perhaps already detecting yet another pattern here in what I often refer to as the symbolic spiritual language of the holy writings? Because I'll insist that if we happen to be among the ones who have been reading the Bible for many years, we absolutely should. For example we might immediately be reminded of a very similar account involving the ancient King Uzziah which is ALSO found in a setting of a very serious rebellion against Jehovah; an apostasy in fact that the prophet Zechariah later described as even earth shaking in its repercussions or consequences. (2 Chr 26:16-20) (Zec 14:5)


    With these things in mind, have we ever actually taken note of how the disease of leprosy is consistently associated not only with a very rebellious act against Jehovah, but even more specifically a rebellion on the part of ANOINTED ones or spiritual LEADERS of Jehovah's people? This in turn might remind us of accounts involving ones like Moses' sister Miriam or the attendant of the prophet Elisha by the name of Gehazi. (Nu 12:9, 10) (2 Ki 5:26, 27) But if we WERE to perhaps even PRAYERFULLY ponder this rather interesting pattern, should it not in turn prompt us to begin seeing accounts like 2 Kings 5:1-14 in perhaps a rather different light?


    You see if this leprosy is indeed one of the ways in which Jehovah is symbolizing a spiritually sick and disapproved condition even on a NATIONAL level or otherwise one that prompts him to suddenly recognize anointed leaders or shepherds even as FOREIGN chieftains in desperate need of a spiritual cleansing or "HEALING," (as was once again represented with the name—"Josiah" here in 1 Kings 13), then are we not suddenly left to contemplate questions such as why this phenomenon is so strongly associated with the number "SEVEN"?


    But then if we actually WERE to begin prayerfully pondering the question of why the number seven seems to be directly associated with this notion of a spiritual cleansing and healing of Jehovah's people even on a NATIONAL level, we might in turn be reminded of the fact that these spiritual restorations were also identified or described in the scriptures with terms like "strikings" or "chastisings of the shepherd," "births" of a figurative "barren woman," as well as even "plantings and harvests" which just so happen to ALSO be directly associated with the number seven! (Le 26:18, 23-25) (Mt 26:32) (Ge 41:22-24) (1 Cor 15:23) (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Re 12:1, 2, 5)


    However the moment we begin to take THESE things into account, how could we not begin to at least WONDER whether or not they in turn have something to do with prophecies like the "seven TIMES" or even the "seven KINGS," or for that matter prophetic dramas such as found in Joshua where we read about "seven marches" around the "great city" of ancient of Jericho which at least in the case of a certain "prostitute" woman and her household ("mere remnant"?) DID INDEED involve a kind of spiritual cleansing and rebirth? (Da 4:23, 32) (Re 17:10) (Jos 2:1, 14 6:3-5) (Ro 9:27) This in turn might remind us the occasion on which Jesus spoke of a "circuit of the cities of Israel," or accounts such as when the prophet Ezekiel spoke of a rather interesting kind of "wheelwork." (Mt 10:23) (Eze 10:13)


    Are we already beginning to sense that a genuinely prayerful consideration of the Holy Scriptures completely devoid of the influence of things like "leavened" religious literature can soon prove vastly more informative and enlightening than we ever even imagined? (Mt 16:6) (Da 1:8) (2 Cor 6:17) (Mt 24:15, 16) (Isa 1:21) At the very least it might begin to already seem as if what we are considering here in 1st Kings Chapter 13 is connected to a foretold cycle of events that would repeat themselves AT LEAST "seven times" prior to the long anticipated "Millennial Reign." In my case at least I'd have to insist that AMONG the questions we should already be asking ourselves is if a closer consideration of 1 Kings Chapter 13 might reveal it to be among the ways that Jehovah actually ANSWERS some rather pivotal questions that genuine prayerful contemplation might begin to raise on the part of his anointed "widows and virgins" who once again find themselves in desperate need of some renewed wedding vows with their heavenly "bridegroom," or what is also referred to with terms like a "…coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…" (La 1:1, 4) (Mt 25:1, 2, 5, 10) (2 Th 2:1-4)


    Well assuming we personally are intent on doing that very thing, likely an important thing to factor in next here is that the idolatry we are considering here is INDEED being represented on the part of the RULING faction of Jehovah's nation, or otherwise it's theocratically appointed SHEPHERDS. These ones are always of course distinguished with titles like prophets, priests, judges and kings, and at least in the case of JEHOVAH'S nation, they were also always spirit anointed. It's important to understand however that since these are basically the very ones Jehovah FORMS his holy covenant with in the first place, this in turn means they are much more directly in a position to VIOLATE this covenant. But do we really grasp the rather earth shaking implications of all this?


    You see an apostasy that occurs at a NATIONAL level is also identified with scriptural terms such as "the sin of the PRIEST that brings guiltiness upon the PEOPLE"! (Le 4:3) Accounts like this make it rather clear that we are now dealing with COMMUNITY responsibility here, and this in turn is precisely the reason that the priestly sacrifice we find being associated with this particular sin is identified now as "COMMUNION sacrifice"! (Le 4:10) Particularly with that in mind, do we imagine for even one moment it is merely a coincidence that the concept of a sacrificial altar or more importantly what it was always used to ultimately REPRESENT in a prophetic and symbolic manner is being pictured as even a CENTRAL PART of this prophetic drama here in 1st Kings Chapter 13? Let's not forget that ultimately EVERYTHING we encounter in the Hebrew Scriptures was ultimately designed as a "tutor leading to Christ" or even a "…typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things." (Ro 15:4) (Ga 3:24) (He 8:5)


    But if it is indeed a MESSIANIC sacrifice that is ultimately being prophetically pictured or symbolically represented for us here in this account and the spiritual cleansing and rebirth associated with IT, then in OUR case at least based on many teachings that have been RELENTLESSLY inculcated in us throughout the entire course of our lives, scriptural information such as this should already be raising questions in our minds that might seem even VERY troubling. But questions aside; Jesus himself made it rather clear that when it comes to the scriptural ANSWERS to these questions, "few" even among the ANOINTED ones in these prophetic time frames would NOT recognize them as even downright "OFFENSIVE." (Mt 22:14) (1 Pe 2:8)


    However if such would always be the case in connection with these foretold ministries of the "two witnesses" immediately prior to another "birth of the barren woman," would that not qualify as merely ANOTHER strong indication that we indeed ARE living in another time frame in which we are having our "ears tickled" by the "disgusting thing" that is always "put in PLACE" of the Christ or "CONTINUAL sacrifice" BY MEANS of these broken "holy covenants," namely the "ANTI-Christ"? (2 Ti 4:3) (Da 11:30-32) It may interest certain ones to know that the ACTUAL definition of the term "antichrist" is something like—counterfeit replacement anointing. (Strong's #473 #5547) This information alone should at the very least begin causing scriptures like 1 John 2:18, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and Matthew 24:15, 16 to begin having a MUCH greater impact on us.


    By all means then, beginning with my next post let us please give some very CAREFUL and PRAYERFUL consideration to what accounts LIKE 1 Kings Chapter 13 will only CONTINUE to uncover for at least the ones who REFUSE to be "stumbled" over what the scriptures identify as the "TRUTH that will set us free." (Ps 110:165) (Mt 11:6) (Joh 8:32)


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings friend, :)

    Could you offer your understanding of who the two witnesses are?

    Could you offer insight into your understanding of the definition of antichrist in view of 1Jhn 4:3?

    "Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist,"

    I'm curious, could you offer what you believe the continual sacrifice is today in light of Heb 13:15?

    "Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name."

    -------

    Just a heads up: Your posts are a little hard to follow. When you write in a way that presents question after question, people can't follow what you're trying to define. The run-on sentences don't further clarify like we imagine they will; they just make things more confusing. I find it best just to present our understanding as simply as possible. It can make it easier for your reader to follow, and you might get more responses.

    All love...

    Joshua
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    I really appreciated your comments Joshua but particularly since it is already clear to me you are prepared to ask such good and important questions I hope you don't mind if I suggest you try to keep them down to just one or two at a time in the future. Based on your final comments here alone it would likely surprise you to know I am ALWAYS striving very hard to find ways of keeping things as simple and concise as possible, and I can assure you in advance (perhaps unfortunately) that even just one good scriptural question can generate a rather lengthy reply in my case, no matter how hard I try to keep it brief. To genuinely address your post here it's likely best if I begin by saying the following:


    For at least most of my life my dear brothers and sisters seemed to have no trouble at all with following what I had to share on spiritual or religious topics. But upon experiencing an anointing sometime in the year 2010 I soon began to realize the extremely troubling reason as to why this was the case. For at least the most part I was simply parroting false religious dogma that they had already been rather familiar with for many years in most cases. Upon suddenly and increasingly coming to a much better understanding of the scriptures, AMONG the things that quickly became very clear was the truth of accounts like Romans 11:33, Colossians 2:3 and Matthew 13:11. What exactly do I mean by this?


    I mean that just as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 1:25, "even a WEAK thing of God is stronger than men." Yes I realize that false religions like the Watchtower organization constantly promote ideas such as that –"our leader and exemplar taught things in such a simple and easily understood manner, and therefore we should be doing the same," but accounts like Song of Songs or Revelation ASIDE, press them for even one minute on the symbolic meanings Jesus was conveying in passages like Matthew 24:15-30 or 9:11-17 and of course they suddenly get rather silent. Increasingly they and in fact ALL of organized religion seem inclined to make no effort at all to explain even COUNTLESS scriptural passages, and that is undoubtedly their best approach in view of what fools they make of themselves when they actually try.


    When it comes to God's word the reality is we are dealing with "carefully concealed sacred secrets" or even "hidden treasures" that were only EVER intended to be revealed by Jehovah's Holy Spirit regardless of HOW skillfully, simply or concisely they would be explained. (Pr 2:4) (Mt 11:25 16:17) (Lu 12:12) (Ac 16:14) This is the very reason we are COMMANDED to persistently and prayerfully pursue them. (Lu 11:9-13) A more careful analysis in fact of most if not ALL the letters or writings of the New Testament will reveal that they themselves are essentially efforts on the part of the first century Apostles to actually explain spiritual things that were ALREADY in the scriptures, and provided we are being honest and humble, even these EXPLANATIONS THEMSELVES are often rather difficult for us to follow. In my own case EVEN NOW I often need to read various statements of ones like the Apostle Paul more than once along with prayerful meditation before I believe I actually understand them. But here is a point or two that should make these points seem as all the more striking to us.


    Beginning with the book of Acts, basically all these explanations, elaborations and clarifications of scriptural/spiritual things we are considering are occurring in a setting or context of a RENEWED AND INAUGURATED KINGDOM COVENANT! In other words as is ALWAYS the case in these prophetic time frames, GENUINE or DIVINELY APPOINTED theocratic shepherds ABOUNDED on the earth up until the spiritual "fall" or breaking of the holy covenant that the Apostle John openly announces in accounts like Revelation 17:10 and 1 John 2:18. This was precisely what ones like the Apostle Paul were constantly warning the congregations about in accounts like 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. This "apostasy" was identified even as something that was "already at work" among Jehovah's reborn nation as early as 50 or so CE. But what exactly am I getting at here?


    In at least some sense this actually makes the letters of ones like Paul rather ALARMING! You see these scriptural counsels and explanations were actually being submitted to fellow appointed theocratic SHEPHERDS! Do we understand that in ANY of the foretold settings of a "BIRTH of the barren woman" as opposed to her death or act of spiritual adultery that BREAKS the holy marriage covenant, we are dealing up until then with spiritual shepherds on the earth who should make people think twice about even daring to LIE to them! (Ac 5:1-6) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 1:21) Just as the Apostle John for one made extremely clear, these were people who should not have needed …"ANYONE teaching them"…ANYTHING AT ALL, let alone counseling them or often even reprimanding them over sinful conduct! (1 Joh 2:27)


    It should be obvious to us that human weakness on the part of many of these shepherds was hindering Jehovah's Holy Spirit to some extent or other even in THEIR case! But if such was the case even for them, what would this imply for US here in a time frame where yet another broken holy marriage covenant has reduced even the anointed ones into what Jesus identifies as spiritually sleeping "virgins" and "widows" in desperate need of proving themselves "discreet" enough to make it to the next foretold "marriage feast" so they can once again be "BRIDES of the Lamb." (La 1:4) (Mt 25:1, 2, 5, 10) (Re 21:2, 9) Do we understand that at ANY time in which we find ourselves openly admitting we are yet again eagerly anticipating another "day of Jehovah" or "coming of the kingdom" we are AT BEST claiming that this is what we are? This is in fact precisely the point Paul is making at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.


    With that in mind, particularly in view of the never ending river of false teachings that always begin to emerge from this "god" that always "sits down in the temple of THE GOD" by MEANS of one of these "apostasies," as well as the fact that this "temple" is always COMPRISED of these theocratically appointed shepherds, (1 Cor 3:16, 17) I'll insist we would do well to consider the following questions:


    1. Should it come as any surprise to us that when Jehovah's "two witnesses" arrive on the earth again to "prophesy," experience another "killing" and subsequent call from heaven to "come up here" just as John prophesied at the end of the first century that their true scriptural teachings would always seem to everyone like a completely foreign language or even like a "new song" altogether, one in fact that even most of the anointed ones would choose to simply ignore. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12 14:3) (Eze 33:32) (Am 3:7)
    2. Since it is ultimately only Jehovah's holy spirit that reveals the truth of what is being conveyed in the highly symbolic spiritual language of the Holy Scriptures, wouldn't it make sense that our best approach to things in these post-apostasy/pre-kingdom time frames would be to focus most particularly on obeying all the divine commands that are always issued to the anointed in these periods?

    Regardless of how wild and crazy you may or may not recognize this reply of mine to already be brother Joshua, I suppose you can already better appreciate nonetheless why I suggest people submit only one or two questions or objections at a time, assuming they would feel inclined in the first place. This is of course taking into account that if we are unwilling to even ATTEMPT to demonstrate or support our points with the scriptures and sound reasoning, we really have no business submitting them in the first place, or at least not on a Bible forum. Believe it or not I struggled very hard to keep things as simple and concise as I could, and obviously I have only addressed one thing you brought up here so far. Even worse, the points I covered already raise yet another question.


    This is namely --what exactly are these divine commands that are always issued to the anointed for the foretold times in which they would find themselves realizing at some point that something has gone terribly wrong with even the one religion they understood to be teaching the truth of the Bible, and we begin feeling even like "lost sheep"? (Mt 10:5, 6) Jesus speaks of this phenomenon as …"catching sight of the disgusting thing standing in the holy place…" and immediately directs our attention to Daniel 11:30-32 in an effort to help us better grasp what he is referring to. (Mt 24:15, 16)


    Nevertheless my intention is to address the remainder of the things you brought up here beginning with my next post, assuming you are still interested in what I have to share on them.


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What is the apostasy and disgusting thing in the Watchtower?

    Have you considered that even the most complex subject can be simplified? Look at math: E=MC2. The goal is always to clarify it, to reduce it to its elementals, is it not?

    I believe the more one understands a subject the fewer words are needed to explain it. I guess this comes from having editors picking my writings apart...

    Thanks
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    Joshua wrote:


    Could you offer your understanding of who the two witnesses are?



    I'd have to insist it cannot be overstated what a good and important question this is and particularly in view of all the conflicting and confusing things we seem to encounter any time we might endeavor to actually research it. We would do very well to understand that such is ALWAYS the case when we find ourselves in one of the MANY foretold settings of a holy kingdom covenant or even divine marriage contract that has been violated with spiritual adultery on the part of the ones it was formed with. As I will now proceed to demonstrate however, there are actually A NUMBER of things we would need to appreciate even BEFORE embarking on any serious attempt at genuinely grasping the answer to a question like this. What might these be?



    First of all when we are dealing with ANYTHING that stems from our INCOMPREHENSIBLY high heavenly father and creator which of course would INCLUDE his written word, we are ultimately considering things that are MUCH deeper than we are generally led to believe, or at least by the religious leaders we are always dealing with during one of these post-apostasy/pre-kingdom time frames we once again find ourselves in. (Isa 55:8, 9) All the confusion and misinformation ALONE we encounter on questions such as the above should really be recognized as simply more evidence of this fact. Yet another thing would be this:



    When we are dealing with GOD'S word or SCRIPTURAL matters, ultimately (as I'm sure we could all agree) it is not a question of how the incredibly lowly and insignificant Sol or for that matter ANY of us might choose to understand things. If anything PARTICULARLY in a prophetic time frame in which an act of spiritual adultery has yet again taken what WERE "many members of the body of the Christ" and transformed them into many "members of a harlot," or as John words it, "many ANTIChrists," the question would be is there currently ANYONE on the earth who is in a position to USE THE SCRIPTURES to establish or demonstrate the answer that JEHOVAH has for this or really ANY scriptural question! (1 Cor 6:15 12:12) (1 Joh 2:18) But here is yet another thing we would want to take into account before endeavoring to genuinely address such a question:



    As I will be demonstrating very shortly, by the TIME one has actually dug deep enough into the scriptures to UNCOVER the answer to a question like this, they by this time have also uncovered "hidden treasures" or "carefully concealed sacred secrets" that are even MORE important to grasp, and once again PARTICULARLY in a time frame in which we are once again eagerly anticipating another foretold "birth of the barren woman." (Pr 2:4) (1 Cor 4:1) (Col 2:3) (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Isa 54:1-4) Would it really make any sense at all for any GENUINE minister of Jehovah to now essentially pretend these additional treasures are not even THERE?



    However the REAL problem or challenge at THIS point is that IN these prophetic time frames, almost without exception the false teachings that have ALWAYS by this time been heavily, relentlessly, and even DEEPLY embedded into us our entire lives by the "disgusting thing" that has always been "PUT IN PLACE" of the Christ or "continual sacrifice" in these periods of national "apostasy" prompts people to essentially run away from the Christ AS OPPOSED to "fleeing from the disgusting thing" that has REPLACED it in the "holy place." (Mt 24:15, 16) (Da 11:30-32) Moreover all of this is assuming we have not already fallen into the trap of opening up false religious literature IN OUR EFFORTS to uncover the answer to such a question which will AUTOMATICALLY preclude the possibility of finding it. (Isa 28:8)



    This tragic mistake that is almost ALWAYS made in these prophetic time frames is precisely what Jesus is warning us about in accounts like Matthew 16:6 or even ones like the prophet Daniel in the symbolic spiritual language found at Daniel 1:8. Jehovah through the Apostle Paul is actually commanding us to not even "TOUCH" these things if we would wish for Jehovah to "take us in" during these time frames. (2 Cor 6:17) Is it really so difficult for us to understand that Jehovah does not grant the holy spirit required to comprehend these things to people who refuse to obey his commandments, and even if they are actually EXPLAINED to them at some point? This dilemma in turn is precisely what accounts for what we read in scriptures like Malachi 3:2, 3, Romans 9:33 and Matthew 21:24.


    So if we have at least made it this far into the discussion, I am certain we are already in a much better position to address the question of who are the "two witnesses" in a genuinely scriptural manner. Moreover it would likely be good for us to appreciate that the topic of the "two witnesses" is DIRECTLY related to what is being conveyed in the symbolic spiritual language we are considering also here in 1 Kings Chapter 13. Rest assured just as is the case also in accounts like 1 kings Chapter 2, it is no coincidence that we are considering some rather curious things connected with not ONE but actually TWO prophets or divinely ordained "witnesses" of Jehovah.



    Despite the fact that the ministries of Jehovah's prophets that led to the renewed kingdom covenants in connection with the rise of the Grecian world power as well as the first foretold manifestation of the Roman one are not covered in the 66 books of the Bible that most of us are familiar with and are found only in books people have declared as spurious over the millenniums and endeavored to remove from the Bible canon, a careful and prayerful analysis of the holy writings will nonetheless reveal a very consistent and noteworthy pattern in connection with this topic. What exactly is this?



    While in a setting of a RENEWED kingdom covenant (which ALWAYS results in the rise of a new world power or even one of the "seven kings" mentioned in accounts like Revelation 17:10) we consistently begin reading about MANY people that are operating under the power of Jehovah's Holy Spirit, (whether they be prophets, priests, kings, judges, or even apostles), in a setting of a BROKEN holy marriage covenant we basically only EVER find ourselves considering TWO. I say "basically" for the reason that there always seems to be at least a handful of people who at some point finally begin to respond favorably to the ministries of these two "prophets," "spies/inspectors" or "witnesses" even PRIOR to a renewed holy covenant and as a result soon find themselves with some very powerful endowments of Holy Spirit as well. (Jos 2:1) (Lu 19:44) (Re 11:3) (Mr 3:13-15)



    In other words the "faithfulness" and "discretion" (Mt 25:1, 2) or even "repentance" (Mt 3:1, 2) and humility involved with actually beginning to (as it says in Haggai 1:12) "LISTEN" and pay heed to what Jehovah has to say THROUGH these prophets who are identified as "son of man" (Eze 3:1-6) DURING these ministries distinguished with terms such as that to the "LOST sheep of the house of Israel," (Mt 10:5, 6) Jesus' "brothers," (Mt 25:40) or even (shockingly enough) one directed to the "NATIONS" as OPPOSED to Israel or even Christianity, (Jer 1:5) immediately results in exactly what is pointed out for us now in the NEXT verse found here in Haggai:


    13 "And Haggai the messenger of Jehovah went on to say to the people according to the messenger's commission from Jehovah, saying: "I AM WITH YOU PEOPLE," is the utterance of Jehovah."


    You see in a setting in which spiritual adultery or even "prostitution" (Isa 1:21) on the part of Jehovah's appointed shepherds has resulted in him "abandoning" the earthly portion of his "house" (Mt 23:38) or "sanctuary" and even "divorcing" (Jer 3:8) his "woman/Shulammite" or nation, (Song 6:13) Jehovah is obviously NOT "with" basically ANY people on the earth. This is regardless of whether or not they continue to refer to themselves with terms like Jews, Israelites, or even Christians. Moreover this REMAINS the case until two prophets are "appointed" (Mt 24:45) to begin ministering to the ones who eventually begin "sighing and groaning over all the detestable things" that of course would NATURALLY and ALWAYS begin to unfold on the earth when Jehovah "abandons" even what was HIS OWN NATION or kingdom! (Eze 9:4)



    Are we already beginning to appreciate just how much we have been lied to all our lives in connection with accounts like Matthew 24:45? These "detestable" or even "disgusting" things in fact eventually prompt many of the more righteously inclined ones to "get out from among and separate themselves" ALTOGETHER from what Jehovah identifies NOT as his people, but rather as a kind of promiscuous "DAUGHTER of his people," or otherwise what is always BORN from these adulterous spiritual relations. (2 Cor 6:17) (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4)



    This is a figurative "daughter" who OF COURSE will soon begin to feel the very devastating effects of this "destruction" of Jehovah's "temple" (1 Cor 3:16, 17) which here in accounts like Jeremiah 8:11 is described as an absolute "BREAKDOWN" or even "pangs of distress" upon what is also in some sense a "PREGNANT woman." (1 Th 5;1-3) This spiritual "harlot" is "pregnant" in the sense that at least a "few" among it (Mt 22:14) will eventually respond FAVORABLY to the ministry of the "two witnesses" (Isa 47:1-7 and as a result will be "severed from the inward parts of her mother" (Ps 71:6) by another foretold "birth of the BARREN woman." (Jer 15:9)



    In other words since we are actually considering a ministry here specifically and exclusively to Jesus' "BROTHERS" or otherwise to ANOINTED ones, this symbolic spiritual language ("barren" in this case) is pointing to how at least a "few" of them will be moved by this ministry to humbly and repentantly recognize that this broken holy covenant means they no longer even HAVE a flock to shepherd over, until IF OR WHEN they are REASSIGNED this authority and power by one of Jehovah's prophets or even "two witnesses." It is this VERY SAME humble repentance that is being pictured symbolically in accounts like Jonah 3:6 or Matthew 24:15-19 with things like a putting off' or "leaving behind an "official outer garment," and rest assured it is no coincidence we once again find ourselves considering a kind of "pregnant woman" in these same accounts, or for that matter a kind of unclean FOREIGN chieftain (king of Nineveh in this case as opposed to something like a "Syrian army chieftain") or ruler in connection with this prophesying or ministry. (2 Ki 5:1-14)



    This "official outer garment" represents genuine theocratic shepherding power and authority and repentantly REMOVING it symbolizes an open declaration of you now being "BARREN" and in fact a spiritual "WIDOW" or even "virgin" as opposed to a "bride of the lamb" or even a "QUEEN" of this heavenly "bridegroom." (Isa 47:8, 9 54:1-4) (La 1:1, 4) (Re 18:7, 8 21:2, 9) This humble repentance now begins to qualify you as a kind of "RAHAB" portion of this "great city" or even "great harlot" that is ALWAYS facing immanent destruction in these "times" in which "two" figurative "spies" are assigned by Jehovah to determine who if any among this "Jericho" or "MOON at the feet" portion/"camp" of Jehovah's "woman" (basically the very definition of Jericho) will "discreetly" position themselves to enter into a new formal agreement with him, which of course is the precise definition of a COVENANT! (Jos 2:1, 17-21) (Da 4:23) (Re 12:1) (Song 6:13) (Strong's #3305 #3394)



    Are we already beginning to recognize that these scriptures and the phrases found in them are simply additional ways of representing or expressing the symbolic spiritual language found in accounts like Matthew 24:15, 16 where we find Jesus foretelling future periods in which people would feel compelled even to "FLEE" from this "disgusting" entity upon finally recognizing or "catching sight" of the fact that yet another "apostasy" or "leaving of the holy covenant" on the part of Jehovah's appointed shepherds had allowed it to yet again overthrow and occupy the "sanctuary" or "temple" spoken of in accounts like 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17? (Da 11:30-32) (2 Th 2:1-4) Yes the act of "putting off the official outer garment" is also a humble and repentant acknowledgement that this broken marriage or even "LAW covenant" has resulted in the forfeiture of the shepherding authority and power associated with it. ALL of these things and more are part and parcel of the foretold "strikings" or "chastisings of the shepherd" that eventually include another "birth of the barren woman" or "coming of God's kingdom," and as we can see in accounts like Revelation Chapter 11, ALL of them would include also a ministry involving "two witnesses" or prophets of Jehovah. (Le 26:18, 23) (Mt 26:31) (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (Am 3:7)

    to be continued
     
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    Yes when it comes to the foretold "times" or even "seasons" in which "tribulations" or "pangs of distress" of a kind of "PREGNANT woman" begin moving people to even cry out to Jehovah over the condition of oppressive slavery that this "disgusting thing" always begins imposing upon them when these broken holy marriage covenants provide it the opportunity, it is ALWAYS the people who begin "separating themselves" from it that Jehovah is most interested in, and it is to THESE ones that he eventually sends precisely TWO WITNESSES or even figurative "spies" to. (Ex 3:9, 10) (1 Th 5:1-3) (Re 12:1, 2, 5) (Jos 2:1, 14)

    By now considering the very NEXT verse here in Haggai Chapter 1 we learn exactly what Jehovah meant when he spoke of now suddenly being "WITH" more than simply his "two witnesses," which on this particular occasion or even "time" (Da 4:23, 32)


    14 "And Jehovah began to raise up the sprit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel the governor of Judah and the spirit of Joshua the son of Jehozadak the high priest and the spirit of ALL the remaining ones ("anointed remnant"?) of the people, and they began to enter in and do the work in the house of Jehovah of armies their God." (Hag 1:14)


    Yes it appears that the "listening" spoken of in verse 12 finally resulted in many more than simply two prophets experiencing a very tremendous anointing of Jehovah's spirit. Clearly this in turn led to genuine theocratic appointments to positions ALSO of things like "governors" and "priests." Particularly upon considering the symbolic spiritual language we encounter in accounts like Mathew 25:1-10, do we imagine for even one moment it is a mere coincidence that the repentant and rather discreet Rahab of ancient Jericho was soon thereafter wedded NOT ONLY to a Judean prince, but even one that placed her directly in the genetic lineage that led to Jesus in the first century? (Mt 1:5)


    But as we read scriptural accounts such as here in Haggai, does it seem to us we are considering yet another example of what is actually a very consistent pattern found THROUGHOUT the Bible and SPECIFICALLY in connection with spiritual deaths and rebirths of Jehovah's nation or what is also described with terms like spiritual "plantings and harvests" or even "baptisms" or fiery spiritual cleansings of a kind of "leprous FOREIGN chieftain"? (2 Ki 5:1, 10) (Mt 3:11) (Ge 41:22-24) (Re 14:4, 15) The fact is what we are considering here in the case of Haggai 1:12-14 is actually what resulted from the ministries of two prophets or "witnesses" of Jehovah by the names of Haggai and Zechariah. It soon transpired even in Medo-Persian kings like Cyrus and Darius serving as "anointed shepherds" of Jehovah, and in turn appointing ones like the faithful "Esther" and "Mordecai" to great positions of authority and power right along with them. (Isa 44:28 45:1)


    However did we notice that this is simply one of SEVERAL accounts in the Bible that follow the exact same sequence of events and ALSO involve a ministry of two prophets that soon in turn result in ADDITIONAL genuine theocratic appointings to great power and authority on the earth? Did not these very same things occur in connection with the ministries of Jeremiah and Ezekiel roughly a century earlier in connection with the rise of the Babylonian world power? Did we not soon discover that Daniel and his three Hebrew companions eventually responded in the appropriate manner to this ministry and that their "listening" soon led to King Nebuchadrezzar not only becoming a "servant" of Jehovah but also appointing these very same ones to positions of genuine theocratic power and authority along WITH him?(Jer 25:9) Is this not also the very same pattern or sequence of events associated with the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus in the early part of the first century or for that matter what the Apostle John foretells in accounts like Revelation 11 several decades later? (Lu 22:28, 29) (Re 11:3, 7, 8, 11, 12)


    Are we at least beginning to recognize what is actually the PRIMARY thing that ALWAYS distinguishes the "two witnesses" from even ALL other genuinely "appointed" theocratic shepherds? It should already be rather clear that when we encounter scriptural terms like "two witnesses" or "two spies" that would be involved more specifically with "inspecting" or "spying out" POTENTIAL "brides of the lamb" which for the moment qualify as mere "sleeping" "widows and virgins," we are in fact considering specifically the prophets of Jehovah that would be most DIRECTLY involved in assisting him with ESTABLISHING or otherwise RENEWING the "holy covenants" that qualify people as Jews or Israelites in the first place, whether fleshly or spiritual. We are in fact considering specifically the prophets who would be involved in humbly and repentantly assisting Jehovah with essentially "baptizing" or performing a spiritual cleansing and healing of what in the time frames of a BROKEN kingdom covenant would qualify as a kind of "leprous" FOREIGN entity, since it is actually a "coming of the kingdom" or a RENEWED kingdom covenant that QUALIFIES people as things like "Christians" or spiritual Jews, and thus having (as it says also here in Haggai) "ENTERED INTO the house of Jehovah or what is also identified as the "sanctuary, temple," or even "ark" of his protection or SALVATION! (Hag1:14)


    Even if this phenomenon began to be illustrated or prophetically pictured for us as far back as or even PRIOR to the flood of Noah's day, it seems rather self evident it actually BEGAN with Moses and Aaron in connection with the formation and adoption of the Mosaic Law Covenant. It should also be clear by now however that even THESE events are among ones that ultimately pointed prophetically to the "seven times" in which two prophets would be DIRECTLY involved in assisting Jehovah in the renewing of these covenant during the period of time identified as the "gentile times" or "appointed times of the nations" wherein Jehovah's people upon existing on the earth AT ALL would do so in a condition of foreign "captivity and exile." We would do very well however not to overlook the fact that in at least some sense even all the events or prophetic patterns that that continued to cycle through this rather extensive time frame could be recognized as a way of even THOROUGHLY preparing US right here and now for exactly what to expect or look for when it comes to what would always ALSO be involved in the ushering in of the MILLENNIAL REIGN! (Ro 15:4)

    Are we beginning to better understand things like the fact that the ark built by the ancient Noah was actually just another way of representing or illustrating that it is actually a renewed and inaugurated holy covenant that furnishes salvation for mankind, and it is for that same reason it is also called the "ark of the COVENANT"? Would this information in turn help us to better grasp prophesies such as the one of the Apostle John at the end of the first century found at Revelation 13:8 immediately after we read of yet another spiritual "conquering" of Jehovah's "holy ones"? (Re 13:7, 8) While obviously only ONE of the priestly inaugurations of these renewed covenants would involve PERFECT blood, it should be rather clear by now that Jehovah would be applying the priceless value of this blood ultimately to ALL of the renewed kingdom covenants. (He 9:16-18)


    You see if our salvation was contingent STRICTLY on the renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant of the first century, then there is of course no reason for the Apostle John to prophesy FUTURE occasions when this "salvation" would be furnished. (Re 7:9, 10) Just as the Apostle Paul makes perfectly clear at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, if GENUINE Christianity is actually still PRESENT on the earth and has NOT been forfeited with another "apostasy," then there is of course no reason for it to once again COME. In light of any real scriptural consideration of these things, could we truly be "rendering our sacred service with our power of reason" when it comes to such prophesies, or for that matter also ones such as found at Revelation 11:3, 7, 8, 11, 12. if we remain unable to make some adjustments in our current understanding? (Ro 12:1)


    Yes the fact is Christianity is simply another WORD for God's nation or kingdom, and if it was actually present on the earth at this moment, not only would we not be feeling very much like oppressed slaves, but we would AT THE VERY LEAST be experiencing a ministry being conducted by even MANY Apostles of Jesus and in OUR time period in fact even "incorruptible and immortal KINGS" who not only would possess rather astonishing levels of scriptural knowledge and understanding, but would be involved in things like even LITERALLY raising the dead! (Re 5:10) (1 Cor 15;51-53) (Da 12:3) Are we beginning to better appreciate just how effective Satan is at casting a veil over even the most obvious or self evident scriptural truths when our unfaithfulness allows him to begin "standing where he ought not"? (Mr 13:14)

    My intention brother Joshua is to address one or more of your additional questions in my next post.

    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Sol,

    I tried to share with you that your use of run-on sentences and meandering thoughts was extremely detrimental to what you were wishing to accomplish, and I don't think you took me seriously.

    You wrote a thousand words here but never answered my question in a concise way. Your writing is VERY tough to follow. You move from one subject to the next, and there is no substance. You won't get any engagement with someone if you continue to approach subjects like this.

    If you don't listen to me, listen to God's Word: "When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent." Prov 10:19

    Another thing as well: You have a very condescending approach.

    I didn't ask you who the two witnesses are because I'm unfamiliar with the subject. You can find a section on that subject in my book The Final Kingdom available at any retailer. I asked who the two witnesses are to get your opinion and to engage. This subject of the two witnesses is not complex and is not hard to comprehend. Your excess of words do not show intelligence; they show a lack of consideration for others. What use are your understandings if you can't explain them to others in a concise way? No one wants to read a book from you with one question.

    Concise
    [kənˈsīs]
    ADJECTIVE
    1. giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive.

    -------

    You should consider your audience. Everyone here will be well versed in Scripture, so you'll want to share your understanding, not walk us through the whole Bible with each answer.

    Let me share my understanding of the two witnesses with you.

    I believe the two witnesses will be two individuals in the time of the end. Zechariah 4:14 reads, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth” (ESV).

    Let’s take a look at the exact context of this Scripture.

    These / Ãl-leh = These
    Two / še-nà = Two
    Ones / ḇe-nÃ- = Sons
    Anointed / hay-yiṣ-hār; = Oil

    In this verse, “These” defines the group of whom we speak, the two previously mentioned olive trees.

    “Two,” as a noun, represents the number in this group. The group was already mentioned in the word “these.”

    “Ones,” as a noun, denotes their position as sons of God.

    “Anointed” defines their responsibility and position as they pertain to God’s organizational arrangement.

    Quite literally, this Scripture in Zechariah chapter 4 tells us that these two olive trees are two individuals.

    -------

    See? To the point, concise, no need for filler.

    Look, I am speaking plainly to you through Christian love in Christ, and I hope you stop for a moment and consider my words.

    Our minds deceive us all the time. When new ones begin to discover truths in Scripture separate from what they were taught, these epiphanies become addicting. Those "Ah-ha" moments can deceive you. Unless you immediately stop and say, "Wait, but is this really true, or am I deceiving myself?" then you will never come to truth.

    We must consistently stop and question whether our new epiphany is in fact true, or are we allowing a spontaneous moment to dictate truth to us. Unless you are willing to listen, to actually understand every other view of a subject out there, you will never have the truth of any subject. And it doesn't matter if it is, computers, cars, math, it doesn't matter. And this also includes writing and how we present Scripture to others.

    Don't be stuck in your own head, brother. We don't know, what we don't know, and that's the first step to knowledge.

    "Blessed are those who recognize they are spiritually helpless. The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.: Mth 5:3

    So, I read every word you wrote and still have no idea what you're getting on about. Not because I don't understand the subject, I'm a published author; it's because of your presentation, dear friend.

    With all Christian love...

    Joshua
     
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    Timothy Kline

    Timothy Kline New Member

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    Matthew 17:4; Romans 3:21-24

    Briefly, I'll note that Moses represents the Law and associated Covenant, as I understand it, and Elijah represented the Prophets whom Jehovah God would send to His people, the nation of Israel. In any case, Zechariah 4:14 seems to have found expression at the transfiguration of Jesus in the presence of Peter, James, and his brother John. (Matthew 17:1:2)

    [I might add that Jehovah God was the third Witness on this occasion. (Matthew 17:5)]

    Olive branches we often associate with an offering of peace, which makes sense as far as the two branches of the olive trees we see described at Zechariah 4:12, since both the Law and the Prophets were from Jehovah God Himself to the children of Israel throughout the Mosaic Age, after which something far, far better would arrive in fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. And this time, the Lamb would be provided by Jehovah God Himself.

    As off-the-cuff as that just turned out to be, it's my two cents' worth. LOL!

    I now return everyone to their regularly scheduled discussion. :)

    --A fellow believer,
    Timothy
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings, brother Timothy; thank you for sharing.

    I am familiar with the view you presented for the two witnesses representing the Law and prophets given the transfiguration.

    I believe in the multi-pattern approach to Scripture. That each age had two witnesses, all leading up to a finale. All the past examples teach us what will be in the end; Just as the original Elijah would teach us about John the Baptist's work. As you know, I believe John was a type of Elijah, not the one to come.

    One can look to the term wilderness in Scripture to see what I mean by types fulfilled in each generation.

    Since I believe once Jesus fulfilled the High Priest role, the temple no longer functioned, all prophecy must still pertain to a future date. As you know, I believe all realities of the sanctuary were found in Him at His ascension. Therefore no Jew was killed in 70ce, no sacrifes removed, and no temple of God was destroyed in Jerusalem. Etc...

    -------

    As for the two witnesses, I see these scriptures as connected,

    "These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." Rev 11:4

    "And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left." Zech 4:3

    "Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path." Psm 119:105

    I believe the two witnesses provide the oil of the Word to prophecy in the time of the end. That lampstand in the Holy Place is the Word, and the Holy Place itself is the elect. These are the realities established in Christ. IMO...

    All love...

    Joshua

    PS: Do you feel it's an assumption to say Moses represents the Law in the transfiguration and Elijah the prophets? Aren't those assumptions? John represented Elijah according to our Lord, so did John represent all prophets?

    And second, do you feel the two prophets in Rev representing the Law and prophets violate what I presented in the breakdown of Zech 4:14 showing these two are individuals?

    And finally, how do you connect the two olive trees of Zech 4 specifically to the transfiguration? (Or Joshua and Zerubabbel for that matter)

    Peace! ;)

    PS: PS: lol...

    Can't the Law and prophets witness to the fact that all things were fulfilled in Christ through the Word? They witness to the fact that Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law through their words as recorded in the Old Testament.

    "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe." Rom 3:21-24

    I don't see the necessary scriptural connection of this scripture in Rom to the transfiguration. It appears to be an assumption to say this scripture is speaking of Moses and Elijah. And then to say Moses and Elijah represent the Law and Prophets in the transfiguration is another assumption, all without direct scriptural connections. To me, that is stepping away from only excepting direct scriptural connections. A house of cards built on a slippery slope... ;)

    (And I don't speak to you, I speak to the understanding, as it is held among many in the world)

    All love...
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    Joshua wrote:




    "Could you offer insight into your understanding of the definition of antichrist in view of 1Jhn 4:3?

    "Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist,"


    I'm curious, could you offer what you believe the continual sacrifice is today in light of Heb 13:15?

    "Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.""




    I certainly could brother Joshua, just as is likely the case with many if not all of us. And if my objective here were to offer my own insights or understandings of spiritual and scriptural things, undoubtedly my posts could be even MUCH less wordy. However when it comes to these particular matters, as the ancient Joseph worded it …"interpretations belong to God." (Gen 40:8)


    Particularly in view of how widely our understandings of scriptural topics vary in the post-apostasy/pre-kingdom time frames that are PERFECTLY represented or illustrated for us in prophetic dramas like the ancient Job and his "troublesome comforters," I'm sure we could all agree that in the end the only thing that really matters is if we are able to effectively utilize the scriptures to unveil what JEHOVAH actually teaches on these things. (Job 16:2)


    What makes things all the more challenging in this case however is that in these time periods in which even the anointed ones have been subjected to nothing but "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine" for even their entire lives, any genuine Bible teacher would be very cognizant of this immense obstacle. (Mt 15:9) This in turn would make them VERY inclined to not only rely strictly on prayer and the scriptures THEMSELVES when addressing questions as good and important as the ones you are posing here, but to do so also with the objective of thoroughly overturning these false teachings in the process and overcoming their "strongly entrenched" effects. (2 Cor 10:4) You see they would be keenly aware of the fact that in these time periods the true teachings of God's word would at least initially be recognized as an entirely "new song" even by the anointed "virgins," and that the natural human tendency is to automatically begin thinking in terms of heretical attempts to actually overturn the true faith when in reality just the opposite would be the case. . (Ps 33:3 40:3) (Eze 33:32) (Re 14:3)


    So getting back to the scripture you cited here at 1 John 4:3. As is often the case it may be best to begin by analyzing the way it was rendered in the ancient koine Greek writings. The Greek to English interlinears seem to strongly indicate a rendering very much like the following:


    3 "and every spirit or inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not emanate from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist about which you have heard is coming, and in fact it is already now here in the world."(1 Joh 4:3)


    What I appreciate about this scripture almost as much as the notion of confessing Jesus is the way it continues to direct our attention to the word- spirit. It does so in fact more than most people would initially imagine since it is actually found in this one verse FOUR times even if the relentless false teachings we have been exposed to our entire lives would immediately lead us to recognize only two. The third instance in this case is found in the word "inspired" and the fourth in the word "antichrist."


    You see the word Christ literally means spirit, inspired or anointed. As opposed to allowing us to be led in the direction of assuming we are dealing with an INDIVIDUAL when it comes to this word and by extension much more vulnerable to false teachings such as that the Christ is someone that merits our actual worship, already we are helped to begin attaining a much better understanding of scriptures like 1 Corinthians 6:15, 16 and 12:12. Here we are reminded not only of the fact that the Christ is ultimately a "body of MANY members" even if this body has a "head" or "foundation cornerstone," but also that ALL among this "body" are anointed or otherwise under the influence or even control of a SPIRIT, and REGARDLESS of what SPECIFIC anointing we might currently be considering.


    In other words are we not already being led by the scriptures to the fact that what is spoken of in accounts like Matthew 24;15, 16, Daniel 11:30-32, and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 ALWAYS results in the outcome or tragedy that in turn is addressed in passages like 1 John 2:18, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 and 6:15, 16? Even when it comes to what now WAS the "sanctuary" of Jehovah's loving protection or "ARK of his COVENANT" that ALWAYS furnishes us our very SALVATION, an "apostasy" that involves the "LEAVING of this covenant" actually "DESTROYS" this "temple" comprised of the "many members of the Christ" by now "making them many members of a HARLOT" or otherwise what the Apostle John describes as "many ANTICHRISTS." You see it was precisely what ones like Paul were continually warning the congregations about in accounts like 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 as early as around 50 CE that the Apostle John is ANNOUNCING as having tragically unfolded yet again for the fifth foretold "time" around the year of 98 CE there in accounts like Revelation 17:10 and 1 John 2:18.


    To be continued
     
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    Particularly with all these scriptures in mind, are we not in turn being led by Jehovah to understand precisely what is being conveyed now by the word—ANTI and more particularly when it is found attached to the word—Christ? You see even we made the mistake that basically ALL of us do (at least initially) of assuming that this "Great Harlot" or "disgusting thing" would not manage to gradually begin RE-defining scriptural terms such as this the moment it is allowed to overthrow and occupy this "holy place" by our continual tendency as imperfect sinful humans to eventually rebel against Jehovah outright, a PRAYERFUL and more CAREFUL analysis of the scriptures should nonetheless help us to grasp things such as the literal meaning of the word—anti. What exactly is this?

    The definition of anti points to the concept of replacing or substituting. (Strong's #473) Therefore regardless of how we might find the word antichrist being defined in various dictionaries that inevitably or invariably will eventually become influenced by centuries of false teachings, when we find this word anti attached to the word Christ, this in reality is only a CONFIRMATION of precisely what we find in scriptures like Daniel 11:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and 1 Corinthians 6:15.


    Do we currently find ourselves here on the earth dealing with a kind of "Great Harlot" AS OPPOSED to a "king" or world power that could be described as an "ANOINTED SHEPHERD" of Jehovah? (Isa 44:28, 45:1) Are we currently experiencing things like Apostles on the earth who are furnishing Jehovah's "sanctuary/salvation" or loving protection to millions of people while this God at the same time is rendering outright destruction upon something like a now apostate "Jewish system of things" and the INITIAL form of the world power or "king of the north" that at some point "led" these religious leaders "into apostasy"? (Da 11:30-32) (Joh 19:15) Are we currently enjoying ANY of the divine blessings that ALWAYS come with a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant, ones such as GENUINE theocratic shepherds who can ROUTINELY do things like write books of the Bible or even LITERALLY raise the dead? Are these loving shepherds sending us the warm Christian "greetings" of the "holy ones" of a NEW world power who are at the same time actively engaged in the complete annihilation of the one that preceded it, or even VERSION of the one that preceded it? Are they doing this while at the same time rejoicing over the fact that Jehovah once again mercifully "transferred them into the kingdom of the son of his love" with another foretold "birth of the barren woman"? (Php 4:22) (Col 1:13) (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5)


    It would seem the moment we actually begin learning once again to completely ignore the "smooth words" of mere dogma found in false religious literature and begin focusing instead on things like prayer and the Holy Scriptures themselves, we quickly begin to realize we are instead dealing once again (for the final foretold "time") with a very pervasive "spirit" or "Christ" which in reality is doing ANYTHING BUT "confessing Jesus." (Da 4:23, 32) This is an anointing that both Daniel and the Apostle Paul explicitly identify as what is ALWAYS "PUT IN PLACE" of JEHOVAH'S Holy Spirit the moment his appointed earthy shepherds "leave the holy covenant."


    Verse 30 of this same chapter of Daniel should help us to appreciate that this great offense on the part of a world ruler or power of "acting wickedly against the holy covenant" is a very PRIDEFUL action of these foretold "kings" mentioned also in Revelation 17:10. The resulting "divorce" and "abandoning of the house" on the part of Jehovah that this spiritual adultery always results in with what was initially recognized as one of his "SERVANTS" now opens the door or otherwise allows a figurative "thief in the night" to "break in" to this house/temple or even "body of many members," filling it now with an anointing of SATAN which OF COURSE would "destroy" it. (Jer 3:8) (Mt 23:38 24:43) (1 Cor 3:16, 17) This is of course a "deceiver" with "smooth words" designed to make him appear even as an "angel of LIGHT." (2 Cor 11:14, 15)


    Instead of a coalition or alliance involving Jehovah, a DOMESTICATED "beast" with its "disgusting" or even "loathsome wings of an eagle" "plucked out" and its "heart of stone" replaced with a "heart of flesh" along with a TRUE prophet that a RENEWED and INAUGURATED kingdom covenant always creates, this BROKEN covenant means we are once again dealing with a "FALLEN" version of "Babylon the Great" that now "HAS BECOME the dwelling place of demons and the lurking place of every UNCLEAN exhalation and every unclean HATED bird. (Isa 1:21) (La 1:1, 4) (Da 7:4) (Le 11:13) (Mt 24:15, 16) (Eze 11:19) (Re 18:2) This "anti" or REPLACEMENT anointing means that instead of a Christ or "body of many members" that are …"offering up a sacred service of praise to God, that is the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name," we are now once again considering a coalition of the "DRAGON, a WILD beast, and a FALSE prophet" that can only emit "UNCLEAN inspired expressions." (Re 16:13)


    At this point we should find ourselves in a much better position to appreciate that ancient accounts such as that of David's son Absalom and his great beauty and "smooth words" involved with overthrowing even Jerusalem itself for a time is simply among SEVERAL prophetic dramas of the antichrist and how it would OFTEN succeed in overthrowing or even "stealing away" what up until that moment would have been a …"CONTINUAL sacrifice of praise to God…" as well as even the salvation itself of the Christ that JEHOVAH had initially placed in this "sanctuary." (Eze 28:17) Accounts like Galatians 4:24-26 in turn reveal that what Jerusalem ITSELF has actually represented or symbolized all along is none other than the holy "COVENANT"! The notion in turn of this "apostasy" serving to REPLACE Jehovah's Holy Spirit with a different and very "disgusting" Christ or anointing might bring to our minds how this very thing was illustrated with the apostasy of ancient King Saul.


    In the book of 1st Samuel we find ourselves considering yet another prophetic drama of this phenomenon and particularly at the moment "the very spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul and a BAD spirit from Jehovah began to terrorize him." (1 Sa 16:14) This soon resulted in yet ANOTHER very interesting prophetic picture of a newly anointed David sitting before this apostate king playing a HARP (of all things) which while intended to actually EASE his suffering would instead result at times in David very much needing to dodge spears and "run away." (1 Sa 19:9, 10, 18) (Re 14:2, 3)


    Could it perhaps be a kind of "NEW song" that was being pictured here in this symbolic spiritual language that was actually prompting a violent reaction not so much from Saul but more specifically the "spirit" that NOW occupied him? (Re 14:3) (Eze 33:32) In view of what the "weapons" and "armor" that David tried but then REFUSED to put on to battle Jehovah's enemies was ultimately used to represent what we find in the 6th chapter of Galatians, could it be the issue here once again was that David was gradually learning to begin relying strictly on Jehovah and his word rather than things like the "leavened bread" of the figurative Pharisees" and that THIS was what was making satan so angry? (Gal 6:10-18) (1 Sa 17:39) (Mt 16:11, 12)


    Now if we actually WERE to begin recognizing that these are merely among MANY scriptural accounts that are ultimately conveying the very same divine messages or even commands we encounter in passages like Matthew 24:15, 16, wouldn't it also likely we would in turn suddenly begin recognizing exactly WHERE this newly anointed shepherd BOY or "virgin" David now fled to upon finally "catching sight" of just how serious the situation with Jerusalem had actually become? Would we perhaps continue to imagine it was merely a coincidence that David actually "fled" not merely to the "mountains," but more specifically what they were always used in the scriptures to symbolically REPRESENT? This is namely JEHOVAH'S mountain-like power and authority as opposed to Satan's, which in turn has always been manifested with his true PROPHETS. (De 10:1, 2) (Mr 3:13-15)


    Particularly upon comparing scriptures such as here in Deuteronomy and Mark with ones like Luke 22:28, 29, do we imagine for even one moment it was merely a coincidence not only that David now attached himself to one of Jehovah's PROPHETS in this mountain? Yes the word Ramah we encounter here at 1 Samuel 19:18 literally means -the heights, and the city of Naioth was not only located in the mountains but was even recognized as a city of the PROPHETS. But things should become even much more interesting and noteworthy to us when we now recall that a new COVENANT was soon represented along with all these things, and even more specifically one that was formed with someone who continued to prove themselves fiercely LOYAL to this one who would soon the NEXT king of Jehovah's people. (1 Sa 20:41, 42) Compare (Lu 22:28, 29)


    Does Jehovah really leave any question at all with regard to what qualifies as the "apostasy" and the "antichrist" this act of spiritual adultery always creates?


    My intention is to address your final question/questions in my next post brother Joshua.



    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Your approach to what the apostasy is could be applied to every single religion in the world. You cannot prove scripturally that the Watchtower has fulfilled prophecies of a specific apostasy as mentioned in 2th2. You certainly have an opinion; however, that opinion could apply to any religion in the world. The Watchtower currently is just as in error as any others.

    In my opinion the apostasy in 2Th2 is a very specific incidence, and has not arrived yet. Then at which point the MOL is revealed.

    I have to disagree with you, Sol; I believe the definition of antichrist is made pretty plain in 2 John.

    "I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." 2Jhn 1:7

    Everyone in the Watchtower professes Jesus as coming in the flesh; therefore, your summation is flawed. I don't like applying a personal understanding like falling into apostasy makes you all of a sudden an antichrist. I prefer to simply stick with scriptural definitions.

    All love through Christ Jesus.

    Joshua
     
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    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Here, let me share something else with you.

    Consider the harlot Babylon the Great: She is from Shinar and the tower of Babel. The anti to Christ has always been humanistic agenda without relying on God. Apostasy is not falling into sin.

    Apostasy in the Bible has always been worshipping human creations. It has always been an individual choice to worship human creations. That is apostasy, and again, apostasy is not simply falling into sin.

    The mark of the beast that is 666 is the mark of Solomon and his apostasy.

    "Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold." 1Kig 10:14

    The mark of the beast is also the image set up by Nebukednezar measuring 60x6x6.

    "King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, whose height was sixty cubits and its breadth six cubits." Dan 3:1

    The harlot will be buried in Shinar because she is Babel, a humanistic agenda separate from God.

    "“Where are they taking the basket?” He said to me, “To the land of Shinar, to build a house for it. And when this is prepared, they will set the basket down there on its base.” Zech 5:11

    The woman from Gen 3:15 and Rev 12 is God's means by which He brings the separation of the light from the darkness, and the anti is the harlot. Nowhere do we read the harlot becomes the harlot from a previous state of faithfulness. Anyone thinking that is the case is applying a personal interpretation. The harlot comes from Shinar, Babel, and has always been a harlot.

    Just like the calf in the wilderness, the Israelites fell into apostasy by worshipping the idol, not because they sinned. Falling into sin is not apostasy. According to Scripture, apostasy requires excepting a humanistic agenda that does not confess Christ Jesus. That is an antichrist. And the Watchtower cannot be the harlot because she exists before the apostasy.

    I could go further, but this should give you enough to start thinking. Only one paradox in your understanding, and you have to go back to the drawing board.

    Joshua
     
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    Please understand brother Joshua I have no interest in arguing and fighting with anyone. (2 Tim 2:24) Also I do not recognize it as my place to judge people's intentions or motives on why they might have posed any particular question to me. My objective is only to do my best to share scriptures with my dear brothers and sisters that very much seem to produce the answers to said question/questions or otherwise shed light on ultimately ANY Bible topic we might be considering at the moment. Afterwards people are of course perfectly free to accept or reject what I have to share. I have no control over that and neither do I desire to. With that said I would now like to do that very thing in connection with the last question you posed to me.



    Joshua wrote:




    "What is the apostasy and disgusting thing in the Watchtower?"




    In view of my relatively extensive experience with the Watchtower organization I am actually a bit surprised you didn't ask me what their LATEST teaching on these things might be. While this is of course no laughing matter, I'm afraid I cannot resist the temptation to point out that by the time I was finally leaving the organization completely in my rear view mirror around 2013, the way they were treating me might lead one to believe they at that point recognized yours truly as the final foretold manifestation of BOTH the "apostasy" AND the "disgusting thing/antichrist" or "man of lawlessness" this act of spiritual adultery always creates. (Isa 1:21)



    In all seriousness however, even long BEFORE I became anointed in 2010 it was becoming increasingly clear to me that even the top leaders of this organization did not really understand these things as well as MANY scriptural teachings. To their credit at least they would openly admit this at times even if it would not stop them from disfellowshipping you if you dared to suggest a different way of understanding some particular teaching that they might very well change their position on AFTER this disfellowshipping.



    In the case of the foretold "apostasy" I seem to recall at least three different understandings on it over the years even if one or more of them were only implied and likely even designed to leave them an opening for plausible deniability. As far as the "disgusting thing" which they failed to ever fully realize was actually among MANY ways of pointing to the exact same entity, the PRIMARY position they seemed to have on this if I recall correctly was that this was the Roman armies.



    There is a VERY clear and consistent pattern throughout the scriptures as well as throughout the entire history of Jehovah's nation that directly refutes this position. A new world power ALWAYS begins to emerge on the earth in conjunction with a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant (which of course occurred yet again in 33 CE) just as will VERY soon be the case also with the long anticipated Millennial Reign. The NEW world power immediately begins to inflict Jehovah's adverse judgments on the PREVIOUS one for violating his holy covenant and once again BECOMING the "disgusting thing." By the time the year 70 CE rolled around, what the earth was actually dealing with was basically just the opposite of this false teaching of the Roman armies qualifying as the "disgusting thing." What exactly was this?



    If anything we would actually be considering the notion of "the HOLY ones of the HOUSEHOLD OF CAESAR" utilizing their EARTHLY armies along with Jehovah's HEAVENLY ones to render the FINAL PORTION of Jehovah's judgments upon ALL THAT WAS LEFT now of this "disgusting thing" or "great harlot" of that particular "TIME" period, which on THIS occasion was all about the FIFTH foretold "birth of the barren woman" that would unfold during the "appointed times of the nations." (Php 4:22) (Isa 1:21) (Da 4:23) (1 Th 3:1-5) (Jer 15:9) (Lu 21:24) (Isa 54:1-4)



    Agape love:

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Your writing is much more concise, thank you... I can connect with you better and get to know you when you condense your words and speak right to the point. We don't always have to offer every single piece of information we have, just the main points. ;) Your post above is much easier to follow; please keep heading in that direction.

    The more you are right to the point, the easier it is for your reader. I'm getting ready to have another manuscript edited, and If you've never published a book, you can't imagine how much they cut out and change simply trying to make it readable. My editor would hate how I worded that last sentence...lol

    -------

    Now,

    I would draw your attention to my post above #16, where I point out that I do not believe falling into sin is apostasy. You will have to convince me that I am wrong about that. I invite you to read through that post.

    I also discuss the antichrist in post #15 and how no one in the watchtower can be an antichrist. If you have not done so already, feel free to read that post as well and convince me otherwise.

    All love through Christ.

    Joshua
     

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