"Decieved by a prophet"

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Get out of her, Dec 30, 2021.

  1. 41
    1
    8
    Get out of her

    Get out of her New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2021
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Brother Paul wrote:

    "Johns depiction of the seven headed beast relating to seven kings at Rev 17:10 shows the flaw, in your conclusion, of the seven kings, and who they represent.



    “. . .And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is[Rome], the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.” Re 17:10



    At the time John wrote this, Rome obviously was the ascended power. Rome was the one in 'one is'. Because five had already fallen, as the verse states, Rome is the 6th, leaving one more of the seven to come to power. Even if your perspective was true of the first five, which it isn't, your 6th king in line is Great Britain. Was Great Britain even a country in the 1st century GOOH, when John wrote this? Of course not, the Kingdom of Great Britain was not even created until 1707.

    Not to mention, your list of seven kings has Rome as the 4th and 5th head, yet according to John the first five had already fallen. I'm sure you can see the easy to discern contradiction when comparing your perspective with what the Bible verses state.


    To claim your perspective is 'from a genuinely scriptural standpoint' cannot be taken literally when your conclusion of the seven kings cannot even be reconciled with the scriptures."




    I hope you can appreciate brother Paul (first of all) that I am only here to teach the truth of the scriptures, not to try and force anyone to conform to what I have to share from them. With that in mind, if you were to take a closer look at the account there at Daniel Chapter 7:4-8, among the things that will ultimately become clear is that from the time of the first appearance of the Roman Empire forward, ANY world power that would appear on the world scene prior to the Millennial Reign would ultimately prove itself as essentially another manifestation of Rome. You might notice there in verse 8 that all the world powers that would follow the "4th wild beast" up until then are represented as basically an extension of or even a rebirth of this same beast. This would mean that from a scriptural standpoint I could just as well have rendered this foretold march of world powers as follows:


    Babylon

    Medo-Persia

    Greece

    Rome

    Rome

    Rome

    Rome


    Even the final "horn" in fact (which the Revelation account identifies also as a kind of "eighth king") that is pictured as emerging in this prophecy here in Daniel before this entire beast experiences outright destruction is ALSO represented as ultimately emerging from this same "4th wild beast." (Da 7:8) (Re 17:10, 11) It should come as no surprise to us therefore that even up until this very moment secular scholars and historians routinely point out that the further people dig into the politics and wars of this current system of things, the more they will ultimately find Jesuit priests or otherwise the Roman Catholic Church behind it endeavoring to pull all the proverbial puppet strings. I simply chose to identify ALL of these world powers with the titles that have come to be most commonly ascribed to them. Both the 4th AND 5th of the foretold "seven" have of course always been referred to simply as Rome.

    You see even if we were to completely disregard scriptures like Philippians 4:22 where we suddenly find ourselves considering "holy ones" right inside the very "household of Caesar" around the year 60 or so CE, we would nonetheless still be obliged to reconcile ourselves with accounts like Luke 22:28, 29 and Colossians 1:13 if we would take the position that there was not another foretold birth of the holy nation in 33 CE. Whether we choose to call it Israel, God's kingdom, Christianity, etc; the entire history of Jehovah's nation reveals that that there has ALWAYS been an emergence of a new world power on the earth in conjunction with a renewed and inaugurated holy covenant. Once again this is precisely what we read about also there in Luke 22:28, 29 which of course occurred in or near 33CE. In turn, this is exactly the reason we are dealing with "holy ones in the household of Caesar" that are bringing Jehovah's adverse judgments NOT ONLY against apostate Judaism, but also against the manifestation of Rome that had preceded them. (Php 4:22) Are historical accounts such as the burning of Rome to the ground under Emperor Nero right around that same time beginning to take on new meaning for you?

    Where you at least largely seem to be experiencing confusion here brother Paul (correct me if I'm wrong) is when it comes to this scriptural term- "fall" in accounts like Revelation 17:10 in connection with these foretold "seven kings." Among the things I was endeavoring to make very clear in my reply to your posts is that this would be a SPIRITUAL "fall" that we are considering in this case. You see if King Cyrus of the Medo-Persian Empire for example would find himself at some point positioned as an "anointed shepherd" of Jehovah and then he subsequently violates the "holy covenant" that qualified him as such, this does not mean that the Medo-Persian Empire immediately ceases to exist as a world power. (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 11:30-32) It only means that ones like Queen Esther and her uncle Mordecai are no longer ruling in this kingdom, and NO "holy ones" will reign in it ever again. It is now in line NOT for a "fall," but rather for outright destruction. Moreover what will now eventually experience Jehovah's adverse judgments is NOT Jehovah's nation, but rather the "great harlot" or great spiritual "prostitute" that she became the moment she violated the holy marriage covenant that ALWAYS quickly positions "anointed shepherds" as a world power. (Isa 1:21) (Eze 23:1-4)


    In other words brother Paul, in connection with these foretold "beasts" in accounts like Daniel Chapter seven, while a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant in effect causes them to "stand up on two feet" and have their "unclean" "wings of an eagle plucked out" from them and essentially their "heart of stone" now replaced with "a heart of a man," conversely when this holy marriage covenant is broken we are now dealing with exactly what is spoken of in the symbolic spiritual language found in accounts like Daniel 4:31-33. Compare (Da 7:4) (Eze 11:19) (Le 11:13) If we are speaking of a time frame between 33CE until the present and we are dealing with a manifestation of Rome that has "fallen" into spiritual adultery, this by extension would mean the following:


    The earth is once again experiencing a "WILD beast" (as opposed to a kind of domesticated one) which as opposed to bringing the blessings spoken of in accounts like Colossians 1:13, it is instead once again inflicting something like the "dark ages" upon mankind. This is the oppressive slavery that was illustrated for us in prophetic dramas such as in ancient Egypt after a death of the wise and loving Joseph and the very benevolent Pharaoh that ruled along with him. We very much need to understand that "Babylon the Great" is by no means a "Great Harlot" when it is being ruled with "holy ones" like the prophet Daniel and his three companions along with a foreign king that Jehovah can recognize as one of his very own "servants." (Jer 25:9) (Da 2:46-49)


    ALL of the things I have just covered are really just another way of saying that what the Apostle John stated there in Revelation 17:10 concerning the "fall" of the "fifth king" sometime at the end of the first century is really just a confirmation of what he stated at 1st John 2:18. John here is openly announcing precisely what ones like the Apostle Paul had been warning the Christian congregation of as early as around 50 or so CE. (2 Th 2:7, 8) The word "antichrist" literally means exactly what is spoken of in accounts like Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and as we can discern from BOTH of these accounts, this "putting in place" of the "disgusting thing" is what results from an "apostasy" that involves Jehovah's appointed shepherds "leaving the holy covenant." (Strong's #473 #5547) (2 Th 2:1-8) (Da 11:30-32)


    Due to the fact that the messianic kingdom that was established in 33 CE would involve also a "Jerusalem ABOVE" or otherwise would consist of what had all along been foretold or described as a "TWO camp" entity, it would ALWAYS be an issue of "one is" from at least that time forward in connection with these foretold "seven kings." (Ga 4:26) (He 12:22) (Song 6:13) (Re 17:10) An apostasy of the EARTHLY "camp" of this "Shulammite" entity would of course never result in a "fall" of its heavenly counterpart. But as far as the next foretold manifestation of the EARTHLY facet of the holy nation in this time frame of the "appointed times of the nations," its arrival was pinpointed for us in the 8th Chapter of the book of Daniel. (Lu 21:24) (Da 8:14) When we calculate this "2,300 evenings and mornings" until the "holy place" would be "brought back to its right condition" from the starting point we are furnished at Jeremiah 1:3 with the very same "day for a year" formula laid out for us there at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, we end up at the very end of the 1600s. While Great Britain officially became recognized as a world power around the year 1707, it of course began to establish itself as such several years earlier or otherwise the moment it became an "anointed shepherd" or "servant" of Jehovah.


    Once again there is ALWAYS a rise of a new world power when a holy covenant is renewed and inaugurated with a ministry and subsequent priestly sacrifice of an entity identified with terms such as "son of man," "prophet to the nations," (as opposed to Israel) or "two witnesses." (Eze 2:1) (Jer 1:5) (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) It's important to understand that just as had ALWAYS been the case, the manifestation of Rome we are dealing with around the year of 1700 (which is of course commonly referred to as "Great Britain") did NOT mark the beginning of England as a nation, but rather the time of its rise to the status of a world power. England had in fact established itself as a nation several centuries earlier. As had been the case with the five "kings" that preceded it however, it would not be long before it too would break the holy kingdom covenant that had transformed it into a world power and by extension reduce itself to a "great harlot" in line for future destruction as opposed to the "anointed shepherd" or "servant" of Jehovah it had initially qualified as. (Re 17:1, 10) (Isa 1:21 44:28 45:1) (Jer 25:9) (La 1:1, 4)


    Paul wrote:


    "Get out of her said:
    that I both can and in fact already have completely overturned with the scriptures and the most basic logic on other websites if not also this one


    I would honestly like to see the 'other' websites you are referring to here. Failure to provide them really draws into question your credibility at this point. I'm not trying to attack you, but rather looking for evidence from you to prove you right. I need your help in doing so, and providing the websites you already mentioned several posts ago would be insightful for me."



    For the last five or six years I have primarily been posting on the discussthetruth.com website. However a few months ago I resumed posting on the jwstruggle.com website after being away from it for several years. Its moderator was happy to have me back actually since the website lost nearly all of its subscribers and even viewers after I departed. (Not necessarily directly due to my departure) If you would like to continue this discussion I recommend you contact me on one of these two. My posts are now being deleted on this particular website so I will no longer remain an active member.


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
  2. 4,116
    828
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    4,116
    Likes Received:
    828
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    We are all here in search of truth, not to teach the truth. No one is an island, and no one has all the truth. If they think they do, they have deceived themselves. You should accept you could be corrected, or you never will be. You will never see the truth when it comes to you, believing you already have it.

    You know you two, the king that 'is' could just be in the stream of the chronology of Revelation. Meaning, at that point, in the end, being described, the one that 'is' will still be standing in the future.

    Joshua
     

Share This Page