Discussing Prophecy

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by SingleCell, Aug 8, 2017.

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    john

    john Member

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    Ok you lost me with the ‘going in the abyss in the pass, not coming out yet, death-stroke already occurring, conglomerate of all the beasts, not seeing the 8th yet, etc…

    Can you just read and answer the following…no big explanations and talk about past fulfillments, just quick simple answers because I have follow ups to each.:)


    [Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (WILD BEAST), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation…Revelation 19:20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet…While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery]


    When do the wild beast and false prophet come to their end, at Armageddon or before? If before tell me what time frame there do.


    [Revelation 17:11 And the wild beast…it is also itself an eighth king (8th king)…and it goes off into destruction.]


    When does the 8th king come to his end, at Armageddon or before? If before tell me what time frame he does.


    [Daniel 8:23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance (KFIC) and understanding ambiguous sayings. 24 And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. 25 And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken]


    When does the KFIC come to his end, at Armageddon or before? If before tell me what time frame he does.



    [Daniel 7:25 And he (SMALL HORN) will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him totally.]


    When does the small horn come to his end, at Armageddon or before? If before tell me what time frame he does.


    [2 Thessalonians 2:4 He (MOL) is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god…8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.]


    When does the MOL come to his end, at Armageddon or before? If before tell me what time frame he does.


    [Daniel 11: 36 “And the king (KOTN) will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvelous things. And he will certainly prove successful until the denunciation will have come to a finish; because the thing decided upon must be done…45 And he will plant his palatial tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.]


    When does the KOTN come to his end, at Armageddon or before? If before tell me what time frame he does.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    At Armageddon.

    At Armageddon.

    In the final fulfillment at Armageddon, but as you know I believe this was fulfilled with Rome coming against the temple in 70 CE as well...

    At Armageddon, but again I believe this has happened before.

    At Armageddon.

    At Armageddon.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    OK GREAT…THANKS FOR THOSE ANSWERS!


    Now out of these 6 players:


    the wild beast

    8th king

    MOL

    KOTN

    KFIC

    Small horn


    Are there any that you believe are the same entity or do believe they are all separate?


    Again, just the same simple answers…:)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm assuming you mean the first beast in Rev 13, of which I believe is some conglomerate of nations now like an EU or UN.

    I believe the wild beast in Rev 13 will be the 8th king, but it will go into the abyss as we see it in Rev 13, already having a healed death stroke.

    I believe the MOL will be a man within the close company of the two witnesses deep in the time of the end, hence the "son of destruction" that correlates to Judas.

    I believe the KOTN is part of the beasts in Rev 13, including Babylon the Great, but that also the KOTS is in that bunch as well.

    I do believe the KFIC is the king of the north, Rome matched this in the first century, and there is also a modern fulfillment.

    I believe the small horn is that power that helped Rome concur the known world, the Holy See.

    So in short the wild beast is the beast before it becomes the 8th king.

    The MOL is a man in close company with the two witnesses.

    KOTN is a nation or two/Oligarchy
    KOTS is a nation or two/Republic

    Small horn I believe is the healed death stroke, Holy See, Babylon the Great...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    OK THANK YOU!
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
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    john

    john Member

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    So you say the wild beast , 8th king, KOTN and KFIC are the same but you think the other 2 are each there own separate entity? So 3 different players, is that correct?

    1) Wild beast/8th king/KOTN/KFIC

    2) MOL

    3) Small horn
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    It depends where in scripture we are talking. I believe Rev 13 shows them all as one before they become the 8th king, then Rev 17 shows them all together as the 8th king.

    But you can find them all separate as well. Like Dan 11 and coming against the constant feature we see the KOTN on it's own.

    We see the little horn coming against the holy ones in Dan 8.

    We see the KFIC coming against Gods people in Dan 7.

    So you see, even though they are all combined in Rev 13, they are also described separately in other locations.

    A man, human...

    Again the little horn is part of the beast in Rev 13, but also seen on it's own in places such as Daniel...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Ok let me try a different approach since I am not sure whom you say are the same or separate. I seem to only be clear that you say the MOL is not any of the other 5. Anyway, in my asking you about these 6 players as to rather they come to their end at Armageddon or before you consistently said ‘at Armageddon’ for all. Now in order for them to come to their end ‘at Armageddon’ they have to be on scene playing out their role (rather they are the same or not) just prior to Armageddon.


    So how many different players in the end just prior to Armageddon can exalt themselves above all others?


    How many different can come against the holy ones for a 42-month period?


    How many different will speak out against God?


    [Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (WILD BEAST), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation…Revelation 19:20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet…While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery]

    [Revelation 17:11 And the wild beast…it is also itself an eighth king (8th king)…and it goes off into destruction.]


    [Daniel 7:25 And he (SMALL HORN) will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand fora time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him totally.]


    [Daniel 11: 36 “And the king (KOTN) will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvelous things. And he will certainly prove successful until the denunciation will have come to a finish; because the thing decided upon must be done…45 And he will plant his palatial tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.]


    [2 Thessalonians 2:4 He (MOL) is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god…8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.]

    [Daniel 8:23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance (KFIC) and understanding ambiguous sayings. 24 And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. 25 And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken]
     
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    john

    john Member

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    The following is an addition to Daniel 11: 36; 45 in above post:

    [Daniel 12:7 … It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”]
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Reasonable there can’t be a number of different entities* that all meet their end at Armageddon which places them on scene it the time just prior to Armageddon all said to be carrying out the same role for the same length of time. And how can one lift/exalt themselves up above all during the same time another is said to be doing the same thing.


    * [Wild beast (from sea), 8th king, MOL, KOTN, KFIC, Small horn (Also there is the ‘Northerner’ in Joel, the ‘Assyrian’, the attack from Gog, the attack on Ariel, that end at Armageddon.)]


    These don’t seem that they are different players and attacks but instead it seems the Bible is using different names to describe the same attack.

    One main problem that it seems you have in seeing that is actually something that Robert is hung up on too, and it is the way you read and interpret ‘the son of destruction’ at 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Think for a second, there is more then one attack. The most obvious is the fact that the KOTN comes against the constant feature. (Dan 11, Rev 11) and this attack results in the trampling for 42 months. Then there is another attack when the two witnesses are killed at the end of those 42 months by the 8th king from the abyss. So it depends if we're talking about the attack on the holy ones, or on the the constant feature when the courtyard is surrounded and city trampled on.

    Then there is another attack, when the disgusting thing is place in the holy place, 30 days after the 1260 days end.

    All the while the 8th king rises after the constant feature coming down and before the two witnesses are killed. Hence why we see the KOTN coming against the constant feature, yet the wild beast from the abyss (8th king) kills the two witnesses.

    The entity in Rev 13 is a conglomerate of many nations, and as you know I say it is shown there before becoming the 8th king. It comes against the constant feature in that form, but even after it becomes the 8th king, it is still made up of nations. Look at the statue in Dan 2, it still has many elements when the stone hits it, and the 10 kings in Rev 17, even though they give their powers to the 8th, they still are spoken of as separate. I don't see a single nation state in the 8th king, I see a consolatory power, where all these nations hand over their sovereignty to the one entity, even though those beasts or metals are all still present.

    The reason why you are seeing different entities attacking is because there are multiple attacks, and those entities change in between attacks...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I know where your going with the "son of destruction" I've been down that road many times. There is no way to connect the MOL to any other entity in scripture. There is no connection to the wild beast, the Antichrist, the false prophet or whatever you try to connect it too, the only connection that can be made to the MOL is Judas...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    I hear what you are saying but out of those six, three show that they have 42-months, so you either would have to agree that those three are the same therefore those 42-months will correspond to one another or you will have to allow for 3 different 42-month periods even if they over lap. Plus the fact that you say they change between attacks but yet each is shown coming to their end at Armageddon. If one started off as (x) but changed into (y) during a different phase, then only (y) should be shown as coming to their end. And if (x) went to (y )and then (z), then just (z) should be shown to come to their end. But if all are shown then they are either all different or all the same.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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    [Note- this website doesn’t let me use my different colors so I tried best I can to show in bold my connection. I had to duplicate some in order to show another area.]


    2 Thessalonians 2:9 But the lawless one’s (MOL) presenceis according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception
    Revelation 13:2 And the dragon (Satan) gave to the beast (from sea) its power and its throne and great authority.

    [Note- Jehovah’s son rules the heavenly kingdom, which we await to come. The counterfeit kingdom that will rule for the final 42-months of this world that Satan is the ruler of will be rule by Satan’s son (in a sense) the MOL/8th king, etc]

    Luke 22:3 But Satan entered into Judas,
    John 17:12 When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me; and I have kept them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction,
    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness (MOL) gets revealed, the son of destruction.
    Revelation 9:11They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·bad´don,- (A·bad´don) [from Heb., meaning “Destruction”].
    Matthew 7:13 broad and spacious is (Satan’s) road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it;

    [Note- false prophet (beast from earth) is a separate player from the following 6 of whom all are the same - Wild beast (from sea), 8th king, MOL, KOTN, KFIC, Small horn]

    2 Thessalonians 2:9 But the lawless one’s (MOL) presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents10 and with every unrighteous deception
    2 Thessalonians 2:11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
    Revelation 13:11 And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth… 13 And it performs great signs 14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform
    Revelation 19:20 And the wild beast (from sea) was caught, and along with it the false prophet (beast from earth) that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness (MOL) gets revealed, the son of destruction.
    Daniel 11:32 he (KOTN) will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.


    2 Thessalonians 2:4He (MOL) is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence,
    Daniel 11: 36 “And the king (KOTN) will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god;
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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    john

    john Member

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    My edit time was over but this is in addition to what I said in above post regarding ‘Satan’s son (in a sense)’


    John 8:44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
    1 John 3:10The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God,
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    That's where the multiple fulfillment's come into play. The time frame of the end did happen before, once between 60-70 CE and the Maccabean Revolt 167-160 BCE. You have to keep going deeper, this get's 3-D before you can get rid of all paradoxes...

    Sorry, at work with little time. I'll write more later...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Start of the 2300 days and "hurling of denunciations".

    Kills the two witnesses...

    Becomes the 8th king.

    Destroyed at Armageddon.

    The 1260 removal of the constant feature.

    Jesus gains rulership of earth, and the beast destroyed at Armageddon.

    This is the KOTN before the 8th king rises. The final battle between north and south does not occur until verse 40 where the south finally losses.

    This is the disgusting thing being planted 1290 days after the constant feature is removed, 30 days after Jesus gains rulership and 10 days before Armageddon. (Great Tribulation)

    Remember, the 8th king rises in verse 40, from the victory over the south.

    This occurred with Rome over the Israelites during 66-70 and as well again in the time of the end. The previous events are examples, or rulers to understand the end time chronology.
     
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    I'll have to disagree with you that the word "destruction" is a connection, I could post multiple destruction texts.

    And the connection of Judas and Satan isn't enough to connect the MOL to any other entity.

    In my opinion of course...

    Lying signs vs great signs, powerful work vs great signs. The great signs is fire from heaven, not lying signs of claiming the day of Jehovah is here... That's the operation of error...

    Remember the attacks, just because one verse says the wild beast comes against the constant feature and removes it, does that mean that's the same event as the holy ones being attacked when they are killed? No they have to be separate events because of the time frame in between, 1260 days.

    I'm sorry, again I don't think this is evidence of a connection, and even you have to question the connection your making...

    In order to connect them the MOL would have to be a nation, and it just doesn't work. He sits in the temple of God as a god, just like Judas. Satan is the restraint in 2Th 2, he is keeping the MOL from being revealed, he doesn't want him to be revealed, just like Judas.

    Satan has to be gone before the MOL is revealed.

    "True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way." (2Th 2:7)

    So we see that at the time this verse was penned the thing that acts as a restraint already existed 2000 years ago. As well notice that this time the verse calls the restraint a "he". Now obviously the "mystery" is that which the restraint brings in, those false teachings infiltrating the early Christian churches. Who is that one who acts as a restraint and brings in those false teachings into the early churches? None other the Satan himself!

    Granted, I'm willing to concede that the MOL is some how working with the wild beast, maybe implanted by that beast, but I haven't seen anything to tell me that the MOL is anything but a man...

    Now, how do we know the MOL cannot have been revealed in any other time but the future? Because sense Satan is that restraint, his being out of the way is his abyssing! It's not until Satan is abyssed is the MOL revealed.

    "But the lawless ones presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents." (2Th 2:9)

    The operation of Satan is the restraint that backs the lawless one and brings in the apostasy. Now we see the culmination of the 8 verses before it. We have explained here what the restraint is that is behind the lawlessness, and of course it is Satan. That mystery of the lawlessness that had begun to enter the early church those 2000 years ago was the lying signs and portents such as those saying, "The day of Jehovah is here." when in fact Satan was still acting as a restraint and the MOL had not yet been revealed. Remember verse 7? The restraint was acting in place then in the early church, so the bible writer knew he was talking about a future MOL because he says "True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work." so he knew there was a future lawlessness that would culminate into the restraint being removed and then MOL being revealed only after Satan's abyssing in the future.

    The time frame alone doesn't allow the MOL to be part of the wild beasts...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Consider John in such places as Dan 8. Obviously the small horn represents the Seleucids and Antiochus when he came against the temple in 167 BCE, but with multiple fulfillments the previous being the measuring stick for the last, you will see that in fact that prophecy has an end time fulfillment as well.

    We know this because of the holy place being brought to it's right condition. In the Maccabean war this resulted in the culmination of Hanukkah when the temple was cleansed, in the time of the end it will end with the new world and the 1335th day.

    Prophecy is 3D, and until you start to see the head of gold, the lion and Babylon the great as three iterations of Babylon, then you wont get rid of all the paradoxes.

    Babel/Babylon/Babylon the Great
    Gold/Lion/Lion Mouth

    Quite literally these nations of the statue in Dan 2 and the beasts of Dan 7 have been reborn over and over throughout mankind, and it's Babylon that keeps being reborn as the head each time...

    So again, that small horn in Dan 8 had a fulfillment in the past, and also a fulfilment in the end, when it hurls denunciations and removes the constant feature.

    But this happened in 66-70 CE as well. Eleazar ben Hannaiah removed the constant feature/sacrifices for the Roman emperor, that sparked the all out war, and that was the moment the city was surrounded in 66 CE, the trampling of the city, representing the beginning of the 1260 days. Then in 70 they entered the temple...

    And another one brother, there was a 1260 day period between our Lords sacrifice to Cornelius. 69 weeks from the captivity to Babylon, to our Lords baptism, starting the 70th week. At the half of that week sacrifices ceased at the temple, meaning they were no longer valid after our Lords sacrifice. The covenant held in place for the "many" were the Israelites. The Israelites are the "many" (a common phrase). Then Cornelius was baptized fulfilling Peters vision of the sheet and the unclean animals becoming clean, hence all believers become Israelites.

    That 1260 days between our Lords sacrifice and Cornelius were another fulfillment of the 1260 days in Dan 12 when the dragon is thrown out of heaven when our Lord returns there, and he comes down with wrath against the women for that last half of the 70th week...

    So again brother...... It's more complex then people realize, and I think you can see it at least, I can tell you have the ability, and that's more rare then diamonds or gold...

    Anywho, all love...
     
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    10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

    What is the outcome for the people that believe the lie?

    What is the lie?

    9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand,

    What is the outcome for these people?


    Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first

    What apostasy is to come?

    Daniel 11:32 he (KOTN) will lead into apostasy

    What apostasy does the KOTN lead?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017

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