Dan 8:9-12 "Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success."

As you know I believe the events in Dan 12 have at least three fulfillment's. Including this event of the 2300 days in Dan 8. We can read the Seleucids and Antiochus coming against the temple in the Maccabean Revolt, and as well a fulfillment in the end.

So with that said, there seems no doubt Ezekiel portrays the "transgression" very well, for it is the elders treatment of Jehovah's flock that brings their downfall.

Eze 34:4-6 "You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bandaged the injured or brought back the strays or looked for the lost; rather, you have ruled them with harshness and tyranny. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; they were scattered and became food for every wild beast of the field. My sheep were straying on all the mountains and on every high hill; my sheep were scattered over all the surface of the earth, with no one searching for them or seeking to find them."

But the question I'm pondering now (with clearer focus in this subject) is, does the lie have anything to do with the transgression. The lie is what causes some to fall away, like a Judas type, but that doesn't seem to be the transgression, and the reason for the constant feature to come down. The lie seems to be an individual basis, something that causes these ones to worship the beast. But transgression the reason for the removal of the constant feature.

Now the horn does cause some of the army to fall, and it tramples them down, this does seem indicative of these ones believing the lying signs separate of the transgression of the whole.

So I'm just trying to justify that these two in question are not the same...

 

Then I just thought of another thing... You have to question what is "manifestation of his presence". I first assume this is when he is revealed in the clouds, and you and I know this is the moment of sudden destruction, but if that's the case Babylon/Great Harlot will have been destroyed before that moment, and wouldn't be destroyed by that manifestation.

A paradox...

 

But then again it's the Wild Beast and False Prophet that are thrown into the fire, and since the harlot is riding the beast we could say she can be gone before Armageddon, but I still see her as the mouthpiece that comes against the courtyard as part of the beast (from the sea).

Brainstorming...

 

So you would be saying the transgression is the KOTN setting itself up as god, so that the transgression is part of the Wild Beast, and not meant toward the army (Gods people)?

 

That would mean the lie/apostasy/transgression/lying signs would all be the same thing?

 

I think that's it, the transgression is that which is causing desolation, the apostasy from the wild beast that sets itself up in the Holy place. The transgression is the wild beast (from sea) speaking against the Holy covenant, in which some believe and gain the mark...

But what is that lie, what's the transgression exactly, that would lure anointed?

 

If I'm right and the mark of the beast is the mark of Solomon, then the transgression and lie is the opposite of buying gold from our Lord.

So when going into captivity to Babylon you either had Daniel and his companions, or those young men who ate what was unclean.

The answers there somewhere...

 

Dan 2, the image 60x6x6, an image set up in Babylon that all must worship, or their sent through the fire, that fire of Zech 13:9. The fire that refines the faithful...

The image set up is the transgression causing desolation, but what specifically????

 

The desolation is to the holy people!!! That's it, gota be...

The transgression is the image set up to be worshiped, but who is the desolation too? The holy place! The holy people, Daniel and his companions....

The desolation is the holy people being passed through the fire...

 

I might add...

We read in Rev 11:2 that it is not the temple that is touched during the 42 months, but only that of the courtyard.

Rev 11:2 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

In 66 CE a temple clerk by the name of Eleazar ben Hanania removed the sacrifices for the emperor and Roman people, sparking the Jewish Revolt.

(Wikipedia)

"Eleazar ben Hanania (Hebrew: אלעזר בן חנניה‎‎; Ancient Greek: Ἐλεάζαρος υἱὸς Ἀνανία) was a Jewish leader during the Great Revolt of Judea. Eleazar was the son of the High Priest Hanania ben Nedebai and hence a political figure of the 1st century Judaea Province. Eleazar was the governor of the temple [1] at the outbreak of the rebellion in 66 CE and following the initial outbreak of the violence in Jerusalem convinced the priests of the Jewish Temple to stop service of sacrifice for the Emperor. The action, though largely symbolic, was one of the main milestones to bring a full-scale rebellion in Judea."

As we know this began the surrounding of the city, and would have been the point early Christians would have recognized to flee. It was not until 70 CE did Rome enter the temple to destroy it.

Dan 12:11 tells us there is a time period between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed, and that is 1290 days, these are the days in between those two events.

Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

The transgression/lying signs are seen from the very beginning however. From the start of the 2300 days we see the constant feature in tact along side the transgression, and are only told what day the holy place would be restored. We know this is after the 42 months because the temple sanctuary is left alone during the trampling, while it is the courtyard that is trampled. Then at some point after, the disgusting thing is placed in the temple, exactly 1290 days after the constant feature is removed, 30 days after the 42 months end.

So when do the 2300 days end? If we apply the 70 weeks of Dan 9 literally as weeks in the time of the end, then the spiritual temple will be rebuilt at which point the two witnesses are no longer in sackloth, and it is this temple the disgusting thing is placed in 30 days after the 1260 days end.

The 1260, 1290 and 1335 days all begin the same day. The 1335th day coincides to Antiochus dying and the temple cleansed, which means the 2300 days end the same day as the 1335th day. Therefore we can count back the days with the 1335th and 2300th ending on the same day to the first day we are to see the hurling of denunciations, the transgression and lying signs that denigrate Jehovah's name. I say denigrate because that is what the wild beast (from the sea) does, it speaks great things against the name of God, and it is that action that leads Jehovah to act for the sake of his name.

Ish 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Not for your sakes am I acting, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you have gone."

I might also add at this point that the beast (from the sea) brings about the blasphemous speech, transgression, in the form we see it in Rev 13, not in the from out of the abyss, but simply with one head healed. It is not until that beast goes into and out of the abyss that it kills the two witnesses. The death stroke IS NOT the abyssing...

When does the 8th king rise?

Dan 7:11,12 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season."

Here we see the fourth beast going into the abyss at the 5th bowl, at which point the other beasts rulerships are taken away, but their lives prolonged 450 days. Meaning the 8th king rises only 450 days before their lives are removed all together.

Hence why it's the beast from the sea that hurls the denunciations, but the beast from the abyss that kills the two witnesses, because although it is the same beast, it changes forms during the 1260 days.

Anyway, I could go on forever, but that's probably good for now...

All Christian love...

 

As a follow up, what this appears to tell us is we will know what the disgusting thing is when it brings the transgression/lie, for it is the transgression, the fire from the beast (from the earth) that hurls the lying sign, that causes the desolation to Gods people, refining them in that fire.

So the moment we see that refining by fire, we will know who the KOTN is, who Babylon is, and who will be the one to kill the two witnesses, and as well turn against all remaining of Christ's brother, just before Armageddon.

Psm 2:2-6 "The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one. They say: “Let us tear off their shackles And throw off their ropes!” The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah will scoff at them. At that time he will speak to them in his anger And terrify them in his burning anger, Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”

Dan 11:45 " And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."

 

Amen brother, I've been sharing this for years in recognition that the WT's belief that the "appointed times of the nations" are the 7 times of Dan 4 is completely fabricated. This time period is 42 months long.

Or perhaps the time period to cover all events that our Lord mentions? Could this cover a time period longer then 1260, such as other time periods mentioned in Daniel? Just as you say, setting our minds to the definite may make it difficult to see beyond...

I knew it was possible for an astute individual as yourself to point this out, I've waited a long time to discuss that detail of the chronology, for I hadn't known anyone able to reach that point. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner as to any of our associates, we just all have our own interests...

What we have here is the difficulty of prophesying two events, because on the surface of it, you have a problem, or paradox, let me show.

In Luke the Israelite's are directed to flee the moment the city is surrounded.

Luk 21:20,21 "However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her,"

However in Mth 24 they are told to flee when the disgusting thing enters the temple.

Mth 24:15,16 "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains."

The problem is, these two events were separated by more then 3 years. The city was surrounded in 66 CE, and the temple entered in 70 CE. As well, had those Israelite's waited until 70, it would have been too late, no one escaped when the attack began (that we know).

So why does Mathew say to flee when the disgusting thing is in the temple in 70 CE if it would have been too late? Because he's speaking of a future event?

So as I mentioned, the problem comes in when you have to prophecy two events that are not exactly 1:1. Those in Judea were to flee in 66 CE, not 70 CE, for that would have been too late, but in the time of the end, people will need to flee physically to the mountains, "taken along" as it were, not to return to gather things, the moment Armageddon begins. In the time of the end you wont see an army surrounding the courtyard, it's metaphoric, but according to the chronology I have presented, the disgusting thing stands in the holy place only 10 days before Armageddon, and represents the great tribulation, while the tribulation itself begins at the beginning of the 2300 days.

Tell me, do you read the temple sanctuary is included in the time of the nations in Rev 11, or just the courtyard surrounding it?

Do you think it would be easy to see both "the transgression causing desolation" and "the disgusting thing standing in a holy place" as occurring the same moment simply because they are described in Dan 11 as "the disgusting thing that is causing desolation"? We could just as easily read the KOTN accomplishes both, could we not?

Okay, let's look at it this way, we both agree the KOTN removes the constant feature and puts in place the disgusting thing, the only thing we're not on the same page is whether the two events happen at the same moment or separated by 1290 days.

I will say I can quote translations that agree with me;

Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity."

Daniel 12:11 (CEV) | In Context|Whole Chapter

"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the Horrible Thing." that causes destruction."

Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up."

Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The ·daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be ·stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, A blasphemous object that brings destruction [L the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up."

Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."

I'll refer you to the chart I posted above, I have come to understand the tribulation begins at the start of the 2300 days, and the great tribulation the moment the disgusting thing is placed.

I might suggest that you not focus on the "and" itself, but what the "and" represents, let me show you.

“And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

What is the "from the time" after all if you say "and there has been" if they are the same moment? Grammatically it makes no sense unless you read it as the time period between the two events. Besides it's my contention that all prophecy speaks of a separation and this is the only way to remove all paradoxes in the chronology.

One must read "and from the time", "and there has been", one event to the other...

Were the creative days of "evening and morning" meant to denote a half day, or are we to understand that each creative day was a full day?

We are not far away brother in our understanding of prophecy, and that is very rare among our peers, as I am sure you know very well...

All Christian love...

 

Let's discuss the constant feature for a second. Now everything we've discussed up till this point anyone in the world could apply to whatever they believed the constant feature to be, but for the sake of discussing fulfillment, I want to pick one for a second...lol I don't know if you believe the WT is the constant feature, but I'm going to use it for a second.

So let's say the WT and it's publications are the constant feature. With an end time fulfillment of the WT being removed, wouldn't that be saying the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down? Now is that the same thing as placing something in the sanctuary with it still standing? Or is Dan 8 saying the sanctuary was torn down, demolished?

Then you have a paradox there when you imagine the disgusting thing is placed in the holy place the same moment the constant feature is removed if Dan 8 says the sanctuary is torn down the moment the constant feature is removed. You can't place anything in it if it's gone...

Now as mentioned above, can we say the placing of an item in the sanctuary is the same as "throwing it down"? The text seems to indicate these are two differing events. Dan 8 says the sanctuary is demolished, and Dan 11 and 12 says the disgusting thing is placed within the temple.

After all, why would a temple need rebuilt, unless it had been torn down? (Dan 9) And here is where my chronology comes into play, I have the constant feature being removed (the established sanctuary), then the temple is rebuilt per Dan 9, and it's that new temple that the disgusting thing stands in.

As well I want to mention, Dan 11:31 can be read, the KOTN accomplishes both acts. I just wanted to mention that because we can't use that scripture to prove either position, in my opinion.

Again, using my example of the WT, if it is Gods people and earthly organization, then removing it would be tearing down his sanctuary, facilitating the need to rebuild a new temple.

Zech 4:8,9 "The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: “The hands of Ze·rubʹba·bel have laid the foundation of this house, and his own hands will finish it. And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies has sent me to you."