The Bible is replete with idioms; this is just another example.

In fact, I can't imagine reading the Bible without filtering the idioms through the intention of the text, rather than the face-value of the word.

[you're great at this, and do it all the time!]

Paul wasn't saying "every single Jew ever born will be saved"

In context, his point was "some Jews will be saved at THAT time, through this mechanism."

The mechanism being Jews rejecting Christ, nations come in, then they (some Jews at the time of fulfillment) recognize Christ.

Here is another example:

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world."

Not All inhabitants, JUST the ones whose names are not written in the book.

An idiom. "all but" The first "all" is an idiom, the second "all" is face-value.

 

Do me a favor if you would and tell me what "in this manner" is referencing please. Just to see if we come to the same conclusion.

Rom 11:25 "A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved."

 

Context: a sacred secret about the Jews rejecting Christ

I like how NIV renders this:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

In what "manner" are they saved by?

Paul goes on to explain:

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs"

"so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you"

Read the whole chapter, a few times even; get a sense for what Paul is talking about, then go to the details.

The point is that Israel was once shown mercy to the detriment of the Gentiles, but now Jehovah is showing the Gentiles mercy to the detriment of the Jews.

IN ORDER that they (the Jews) may subsequently "receive mercy" AS a RESULT of God showing the nations mercy.

"in this manner" is describing the mechanism of God's mercy shifting three times, ultimately bringing mercy to both Jew and Gentile.

This is Paul's main point, and the "manner" by which he saves:

"For God has bound everyone (Jews and Gentiles) over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Jews and Gentiles)"

- Before Christ, we were bound in disobedience, but now have been shown mercy.

- After Christ, the Jews were bound in disobedience, but will in the future be shown mercy.

"in this manner, all of Israel will be saved"

 

The problem with that is you are saying a Jew cannot have Gods favor now, that it is only later when he saves all of Israel Jew/Greek at which point the Jew is sanctified. Well that would obviously not be accurate, for everyone is capable to come under the covenant for a Messiah now.

I think you realize that Rom 11:26 is talking about Jew/Greek when it says all Israel will be saved, so "in this manner" simply means the events just mentioned will occur before the next sentence that reads; "Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob." So this of course is how they are saved, but again the question comes up of who. We obviously must be talking about Jew/Greek again at this point, because you have to keep a flow of thought, and we can't choose who Paul is referring too, we must assume he means all Israel that he just spoke of in the sentence before.

The proof of this is the very next sentence of 27; "And this is my covenant with them, when I take their sins away." The sins that are taken away are those when Christ Jesus returns the second time and removes sins for Jew/Greek.

I still do not see a separation of the Jew who is grafted back in being some grand moment in the future, for one must recognize Christ lived, died and was resurrected in order to be saved, and I see nothing in these text to say there will be some mass conversion by anyone Jew or Greek, but simply that this grafting in is a gradual occurrence over time.

To suggest there is a singular moment of epiphany for the natural branch in the future I have to say is not hinted at in the text.

 

Not hinted Explicit! Not an "epiphany" though, a prophetic event as described by Zechariah 12.

"and they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son"

What is the prophetic event?

Here is the context:

“Here I am making Jerusalem a cup that causes all the surrounding peoples to stagger; and there will be a siege against Judah as well as against Jerusalem. In that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone to all the peoples. All those who lift it are sure to be severely injured;+ and all the nations of the earth will be gathered against her"

-------------------

I'm definitely NOT suggesting that Jews are saved apart from Christ.

I'm definitely NOT suggesting that Israel somehow is the focus of prophecy.

I'm definitely NOT suggesting that "all" Israel is saved apart from Christ.

(etc)

 

If we wanted to be very specific, the Jews didn't pierce him, the Roman soldier did. Was it not the spear from the Roman that technically pierced Jesus side?

But regardless of that, if we see that all of Israel that is saved is Jew/Greek, then the prophecy in Zech 12 must be the same. Zech 12 is speaking of a time after the constant feature is removed and Gods people as a whole are gathered back to him, Jew and Greek.

If you continue reading into Zech 13 we see that clearly few will be saved...

Zech 13:8,9 “And in all the land,” declares Jehovah, “Two parts in it will be cut off and perish;* And the third part will be left remaining in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire; And I will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people,’ And they will say, ‘Jehovah is our God.’”

With your argument you are simply saying that these prophecies are all about, some, not all Jews will convert when Christ is revealed. While to me I see all people coming back to Christ after the fall of the constant feature and captivity to Babylon, Jew and Greek.

What we read in Zech is prophetic of the entire tree, no longer a race of people.

IMO....

 

Frank, what was the constant feature in the first century?

 

I know, but my point is, when prophecy says "all Israel" it must mean those who actually were grafted in, not everyone, not all original branches and just the same not all unnatural branches. The text must mean those who believe, and that is "all Israel".

I have seen no evidence to support a mass conversion event.

 

Overall, agree bro. But in Romans 11 I don't think that is possible.

 

Then what is "all Israel"?

 

Frank, this statement above is the only thing you said that was based on actual scriptural reference.

 

An idiom -- in effect "that specific group Paul was mentioning".

The group who is on earth after all the nations have come in; and by way of deduction, deep in the conclusion period.

[though, I also think Jehovah will resurrect all of Israel, and all of mankind (sans the marked) anyway ... ]

"all Gentiles" will be saved as well.

But that is an idiom too, because we know the marked are not saved.

 

Okay brother, let's look at this again. We want scriptural precedence and continuity to rise to the top.

Rom 11;

"A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in"

If the dulling of senses occurs until the full number of the nations come in, that means some of the nations will also be dulled. Because the dulling isn't an instant event, therefore the nations coming in isn't instant, and therefore some of the nations will be in Israel while the dulling is going on and has to include both Jew and Greek.

Next;

"A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved."

What we are looking at is the partial, then the full. You see, what's going on here is, the first Israel is the ongoing dulling when both the Jew and Greek are being grafted in, but then "all Israel" is when the full number of the nations have come in, when the door is closed.

That has to be the answer...

 

How about this -- go from "in this manner" and let's do a line by line analysis until the end of the chapter?

One sentence can't define the discussion when the whole chapter contains the full reasoning.

The context of the chapter is a consideration of "what about physical Israel?" which Paul is continuing from chapter 10.

"I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized"

So we have the context here, we're not discussing "spiritual Israel" or deep metaphor.

This is all coming from chapter 7 - 9's discussion about Jehovah's intention with the Law, Moses, and the Israelites.

Chapter 11 is an answer to the question of "what about physical Israel?"

It's a "sacred secret" according to Paul; one which begins to unwind by reading the two lampstands (and not a replacement singular lampstand) in the OT shadows.

The "northern kingdom" and the "southern kingdom".

"Judah" and "Ephraim"

Ephraim and Mannasseh.

Jacob and Esau.

Cain and Able.

Moses and Elijah.

Two Witnesses.

(etc)

 

But this scripture doesn't say Israel, it discusses the bloodline of Paul directly. Therefore not all of Israel.

Then he brings them up as a whole, of course because many of Christs brothers come from the physical people of Israel.

I believe chapters 8 and 9 are talking about spiritual Israel.

The book of Zechariah is chronologically in order, from the constant feature being removed to the two witnesses and the four horsemens ride in chapter 6. I believe the entire book of Zechariah occurs in the end, our future, and yes references to past fulfillments such as the 70 years, and these help us understand the end time fulfillments such as the 70 weeks.

IMO...

The sacred secret was set up in Gen 3:15. The solution to the first sin, when he chose Christs brothers before they were born, and the sacred secret is fulfilled just before the seventh trumpet.

Rev 10:7 "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret that God declared as good news to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.”

I believe all the instances of two in the past were prophecies of two individuals in the end, Jehovah has always used men to accomplish his prophetic work to the world. Zech 3 and 4 tell us these are indeed individuals.

To me what your doing is what many do, you are seeing the grand representation of these two, but yet they still are two...

 

I understand your perspective for sure; maybe I'm completely wrong, doesn't really matter!

Let's move back to something productive, like Donald "the Anti-Christ" Trump!

 

Come on, you don't give up yet do you? lol

I'm still really not sure where your coming from, so let me ask directly.

You see see the second Israel as an idiom, and not the first, is that what your saying? Please clarify both Israels in this scripture;

"A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved."