I agree that there are no direct identification marks in the Bible that make the connection between the Antichrist as I call him/it and some other characters described in the Bible. Well, I wrote billions of posts about him/it and won't write it all out again as you already know what I think... excepted this summary : The Antichrist : A secular/heathen world power that achieves great feats on secular grounds (hence my quotes related to sciences, transhumanism, etc) represented (why not?) by a charismatic and utterly credible character who would be able to draw the whole world after him till almost self-destruction and who would be able to wage war against the holy ones and silence and outwit them for a while, mainly due to his supposedly scientific "magic"... just like the magician priests managed to do against Moses until a certain point.... King of fierce countenance, King of Babylon, King of Tyre.... He is described in the Bible under several forms... But the ultimate goal remains the same, to prove the incoming Christ Jesus wrong and false and to prove that he doesn't come from God. I don't rule out the idea that the Antichrist as I call him may use religion to a certain extent in order to achieve his aims.
Yes, the "Antichrists" may not belong to the anointed ones as Jehovah sees it but the parable of the weeds and the wheat shows us that they're all mixed up in the world and among the true sons of the Kingdom until the angels sort them out in due time. For humans like us, it's hard to distinguish mere imperfection from genuine wickedness.... Only Jehovah can read hearts and kick out the real wicked ones...
Yes, Trump is against globalization and by no means in that regard susceptible to being the embodiment of the Antichrist. Diabolos in Greek means "slanderer" like satan means "resister". Judas became a devil because of what he did, not because of what he was. And yes, he was "destined" to betray Jesus since even the prophecies say so : (Psalm 41:9) Even the man at peace with me, one whom I trusted, Who was eating my bread, has lifted his heel against me. Jesus chose all of his apostles in person but Jehovah only chooses the other 144 000 brothers of Christ. Judas has never been shunned or left on the sidelines in any way. He had no reason to betray Jesus except because of his greed or whatever else he ever fell for... (Matthew 10:1-4) So he summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, in order to expel these and to cure every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity. The names of the 12 apostles are these: First, Simon, the one called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebʹe·dee and John his brother; Philip and Bar·tholʹo·mew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Al·phaeʹus; Thad·daeʹus; Simon the Ca·na·naeʹan; and Judas Is·carʹi·ot, who later betrayed him. ...Which makes me reconsider your assertions. Was Judas a son of destruction (John17:12), the MOL being called likewise (2 Thess 2:3) which is why many make the connection between them both (like Robert and I don't discard such a conclusion), because of what he did or because of what he was ? This expression was... an expression very common back then such as in English a goner, a d*mned, etc. and I think that it shouldn't be taken too much literally. Interestingly, Jesus knew the prophecies very well and knew that someone was about to betray him and that fact was apparently hidden to Judas, even to the apostles. It's written in black and white in the Scriptures and yet, none of the apostles was able to understand this detail (so surprised they were when Jesus broached the subject...) and work on it, and Judas even less... Had he known about someone being destined to betray Jesus, would he have done it all till the point of no return as he did ? It's obvious to us now but maybe that Judas read David's melody dozens of times in the Scrptures without even realizing that he was speaking about and against himself. Additional information 2 Thessalonians 2:3 The man who separates himself from Torah. Greek o anthrœpos t¢s anomias means, literally, “the man of lawlessness” or “the man of wickedness.” The two parts of the word “anomia” are “a-” (“apart from”) and “nomos,” which in a Jewish context does not usually refer to law in general but the Torah in particular. Obviously a man who sets himself apart from God's Torah is lawless and wicked as well. His separation from Torah (here, vv. 7-8) or avoiding Torah (v. 9) should not be understood narrowly, as if his sins were things like eating shrimp or driving on Shabbat. Here “Torah” means all of God's teaching, God's way of ordering the universe, and he wants none of it. He is truly anti-Torah in the broadest sense. Who is this man who separates himself from Torah? Clearly an evil figure, indeed, the very embodiment of evil. Such an apocalyptically evil figure is mentioned elsewhere in both the Tanakh and the New Testament. Isaiah speaks of a self-exalting individual (Isaiah 14:13-14), Daniel of the “little horn” and “the abomination that causes desolation” (Daniel 7:8, 11-12); Yeshua of “false Messiahs” (Mt 24:4-28&NN, Mk 13:5-23, Lk 21:8-28); Yochanan not only of “Anti-Messiah” (1 Yn 2:18-19&N, 4:3) but also of two beasts and a false prophet (Revelation 11-20&NN). With differing details, such a figure is also found in other early Jewish apocalyptic literature. For example: “The last leader of that time will be left alive. His entire army will be put to the sword; but he will be bound, and they will take him up to Mount Zion, and my Messiah will convict him of all his wicked deeds and will gather and set before him all the works of his armies. And after these things he will put him to death....” (2 Baruch 40:1-2) As early as the first century (in Targum Yonatan, Isaiah 11:4) there is reference to an anti-Messianic figure called Armilus (Romulus, Rome). But it is in the post-Talmudic midrashim where one finds a sensational picture of the Anti-Messiah. In Pirkei-Ha-Mashiach he is called “Satan Armilus, whom the Gentiles call Antichrist.” He is six yards tall; his eyes are crooked and red, the soles of his feet are green, and he has two heads. This decidedly not jolly, green-footed giant claims to be the Messiah and God, rules the earth, gathers the world's armies against Israel, fights with ten kings over Jerusalem, kills Mashiach Ben-Yosef, and makes the stone impregnated by Satan from which he was born into an image for the Gentiles to worship. But God defeats him in the battle of Gog and Magog at the Valley of Arbel, and Mashiach Ben-David comes with deliverance for oppressed Israel. These fanciful accounts gained a significant place in medieval popular Jewry. See Encyclopedia Judaica 1:476-477, 11:1412-1415; and Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts, pp. 156-164. The evil and hubris of tyrants such as Hitler and Stalin are well anticipated by New Testament passages such as this one, yet these villains do not completely fulfill the prophecy of Anti-Messiah. Anyone who thinks the prophecy is fulfilled by the Pope must be reading his own anti-Catholic prejudice into the text. Who, then, is the man who separates himself from Torah? He will “be revealed in his own time” (v. 6). (from Jewish New Testament Commentary Copyright © 1992 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)
Hi Jan, It's good to read from you again. He may be against the Sharia like millions more all around the world but he's merely a hollow shell. He's playing a part. It's obvious to see. Anyone can see that what he says is hooey. Who even among the least serious congressmen in the US would follow and back up his ideas ? The equation is simple, either he pipes down and does what the Congress allows him to do or he's going to keep preaching in the desert, so to speak, and the whole country and his political ideas will end up in an endless stalemate, with a humiliation for him as a result.
Yes, and in my previous post, I was only talking about domestic issues... Let alone how his say will be considered among the main world leaders.... lol
Did Antiochus Epiphanes did all that he did all alone ? Didn't he have a government, a kingdom behind him to fulfill his gloomy projects.. ? And yet, how is he considered and nicknamed ?
Dear Tsaphah, Please read : 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the* Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. NKJV 2:18 * NU-Text omits the. Besides, in Greek like in English, indefinite articles aren't used at all (in the plural form only for English), contrary to French or Spanish. The man ho andros L'homme El hombre A man andros Un homme Un hombre Men andres (please see Luke 5:18, KIT) Des hommes Unos hombres/varones Bible du Semeur "Vous avez appris "qu'un anti-Christ" doit venir" "You have learned "that an anti-Christ" is to come" I think that some translations add "the" to "anti-christ" because it is obvious that the certain number of previous anti-christs are in contrast in the text with the... one that is to come... 1 John 2:18 Dear children, the last hour has come; and as you once heard that there was to be an anti-Christ, so even now many anti-Christs have appeared. By this we may know that the last hour has come. Weymouth 1 John 2:18-19 Children, it's the end of time. You've heard that an antichrist is coming. Certainly, many antichrists are already here. That's how we know it's the end of time. (from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society. All rights reserved.)
Exactly, men run governments, but as far as prophecy is concerned it's the nations that come against Gods people, the individual rulers were irrelevant. But the point I've been trying to make, and as well Tsaphah is that the Antichrist and the MOL of 2Th 2 cannot be linked. The Antichrist in Rev is an idea, a part of a whole, a nation. Yes governed by men, but as far as prophecy is concerned it talks of nations. This is all about accuracy within the pages...
Is that always the way you defend that which makes up your faith... ? With all due respect, if you have nothing more than cheap hunches to present to us... who mean no harm, who love you and who are open-minded, I wonder how you defended your cause before the elders who disfellowshipped you and how you will ever do so when the chips are down for good in the future. At some point, more persuasive arguments will be needed in order to prove your point than "I just knew it, period !" at least if you want to have some credibility among your fellow anointed brothers and sisters... Where in the Bible have you ever read that sheer hunches were accepted as irrefutable proofs when it comes to decipher the prophecies therein ? "But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect." - 1 Pe 3:15 What is your house made of ?
That which this ruler in particular represents in this case does matter... He's described, depicted in so numerous and "colourful" ways in the Bible that his personality and himself as an individual can't be the one of a nondescript John Doe...
The king of the north, the king of the south, the little horn, are they not all described in colorful ways, and very specific actions and words? Does not each entity speak words and have actions depicted as an individual, when we know they are not? From Daniel to Revelation, to the nations prior, Jehovah has depicted each nation as speaking like a man, thinking to itself, and actions that depict an individual nature. This does not mean he was speaking of each as representing individual men, even if that individual was ruling and used within the metaphor, such as Nebuchadnezzar being depicted as representing Babylon. Jehovah's intent and concern in prophecy is on the nation, while Nebbi was just the scapegoat. Tsaphah's post #34 is a beautifully put together synopsis of the identity of the Antichrist and MOL. Clearly the MOL is a singular individual, but I think the problem comes when people connect that prophecy of the MOL in 2Th 2 with the Antichrist. There is no connection outside any coincidences.
That's not the case of the king of Tyre, the king of Babylon, the fierce-looking king, etc... His personality traits are emphasized on purpose and all the more so as he personifies Satan...
As you say, the physical king ruling at that time is used as a metaphor, whether that be of Satan, or his purposes. Or even nations depicted as speaking or acting as an individual in order to do Jehovah's will, it's always the same. These men are long dead, and the men themselves such as Nebuchadnezzar have no further fulfillment in prophecy, yet Babylon the Great in the time of the end does. Is Nebbi part of that fulfillment? No... The broader fulfillment of Dan 4 and the heaven high tree, is it only to Nebbi, or is there a broader understanding? Those men are gone, and were only used as a scapegoat, while the nations they ruled continue to have prophetic significance. Now, unless you can find direct evidence that connects the MOL of 2Th 2 and the Antichrist in Revelation then I have to say all of this is mute, for descriptions of the Antichrist fall right in line with every other nation in prophecy as it pertains to it's description. Sure men run the governments, but as for prophecies concern, it is only concerned with the nations themselves. Just like Alexander, after that horn or first king was broken, four came up instead. Now is the point about the four to personalize these four men, or to understand four nations rose instead of the one? This is how we get the north and south at this point, so it's important to understand that. We cannot put to much into the individuals who ruled if prophecy speaks of nations, and unless someone can show the Antichrist is spoken of as an individual human or connect it with 2The 2 then again, all of this is hear say, and another 1914 coincidence connection... Love you brother!
I love you too... Seriously, who would fit that description as a human in such ways that he personifies Satan ? Jerry Lewis ? The guy next door ? Even Donald Trump ? lol Come on ! "And the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: “Son of man, sing a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and tell him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “You were the model of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eʹden, the garden of God. You were adorned with every precious stone — Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; And their settings and mountings were made of gold. They were prepared on the day you were created. I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones. You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. Because of your abundant trade, You became filled with violence, and you began to sin. So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you, O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire. Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor. I will throw you down to the earth. I will make you a spectacle before kings. Because of your great guilt and your dishonest trading, you have profaned your sanctuaries. I will cause a fire to break out in your midst, and it will consume you. I will reduce you to ashes on the earth before all those looking at you. All who knew you among the peoples will stare at you in amazement. Your end will be sudden and terrible, And you will cease to exist for all time.”’” And the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: “Son of man, turn your face toward Siʹdon, and prophesy against her. You should say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am against you, O Siʹdon, and I will be glorified in your midst; And people will have to know that I am Jehovah when I execute judgment on her and I am sanctified in her. I will send pestilence into her and blood will flow in her streets. The slain will fall in her midst when the sword comes against her from all sides; And they will have to know that I am Jehovah." - Ez 28:11-23
The same about the king of Babylon... "In the day when Jehovah gives you rest from your pain and from your turmoil and from the hard slavery imposed on you, you will recite this proverb against the king of Babylon: “How the one forcing others to work has met his end! How the oppression has ended! Jehovah has broken the rod of the wicked, The staff of the rulers, The one furiously striking peoples with unceasing blows, The one angrily subduing nations with relentless persecution. The whole earth now rests, free of disturbance. People cry out for joy. Even the juniper trees rejoice over you, Along with the cedars of Lebʹa·non. They say, ‘Ever since you have fallen, No woodcutter comes up against us.’ Even the Grave underneath is stirred up To meet you when you come. Because of you, it awakens those powerless in death, All the oppressive leaders of the earth. It makes all the kings of the nations rise from their thrones. All of them speak up and say to you, ‘Have you also become weak like us? Have you become like us? Down to the Grave your pride has been brought, The sound of your stringed instruments. Maggots are spread beneath you as a bed, And worms are your covering.’ How you have fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, You who vanquished nations! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne, And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting, In the remotest parts of the north. I will go up above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself resemble the Most High.’ Instead, you will be brought down to the Grave, To the remotest parts of the pit. Those seeing you will stare at you; They will closely examine you, saying, ‘Is this the man who was shaking the earth, Who made kingdoms tremble, Who made the inhabited earth like the wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who refused to let his prisoners go home?’ All other kings of the nations, Yes, all of them, lie down in glory, Each one in his own tomb. But you are discarded without a grave, Like a detested sprout, Clothed with the slain who were stabbed with the sword, Who go down to the stones of a pit, Like a carcass trampled underfoot. You will not join them in a grave, For you destroyed your own land, You killed your own people. The offspring of evildoers will never again be named. Prepare a slaughtering block for his sons Because of the guilt of their forefathers, So that they will not rise up and take over the earth And fill the land with their cities.” “I will rise up against them,” declares Jehovah of armies. “And I will wipe out from Babylon name and remnant and descendants and posterity,” declares Jehovah. “And I will make her a possession of porcupines and a region of marshes, and I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation,” declares Jehovah of armies. Jehovah of armies has sworn: “Just as I have intended, so it will occur, And just as I have decided, that is what will come true. I will crush the As·syrʹi·an in my land, And I will trample him on my mountains. His yoke will be removed from them, And his load will be removed from their shoulder.” This is what has been decided against all the earth, And this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations. For Jehovah of armies has decided, And who can thwart it? His hand is stretched out, And who can turn it back?" - Is. 14:3-27
You know what all of this reminds me of? The mark of Solomon... Where once they were beautiful and adorned, they became haughty and self reliant, and each depicted as obtaining that mark of 666. You see, the theme of the Bible is what is important to us in the end...
When/If you have the time, here are a few interesting “church” historical facts(?) that tie into the subject of “The Antichrist”, and his teachings. As John warned, “you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared.” Saint Eutyches [yoo-tik-us] http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Eutyches.aspx#2-1E1:Eutyches-full Council of Chalcedon http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Council_of_Chalcedon.aspx#1-1E1:ChalcedoC-full Monophysitism http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Monophysitism.aspx Apollinarianism http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Apollinarianism.aspx#3 Logos http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Logos.aspx#1-1E1:Logos-full
Interesting that Glenn Beck, who is a well known person in USA, (he is a religious conservative) fears that Donald Trump will corrupt the church from within, while Hillary would destroy it by attacking it from outside. Yes Glenn Beck thinks Donald Trump will bring in apostacy in to the church. That is interesting, does not that indicate that Donald Trump might well become the man of lawlessness and bring in the great apostacy.
Hi Jan: How more apostate can Christendom become? Can the Watchtower outdo themselves because Trump is elected President? I really don't see any validity to this argument. Plus, the Globalist's will not allow Trump to win any election. If they think he will win they will find a reason, or manufacture a reason to call Marshall-Law and call off the election. Please divert your attention to something else. This is surely a losing proposition. Or, they will allow him to win under the agreement that they call all of the shots or his whole family dies an early and untimely death. Ask Bernie Sanders how it works. Ask Ross Perot how this works.