A fair question.

Before I answer, let me offer a question in turn:

Did those in the heavenly realm know what sin was before Adam sinned? Because I would argue that they certainly did, and just as arguable is their consciousness of sin— which is to say that they also knew what sin entailed. Satan certainly did, and "a third" of the angelic realm did, too. And they went ahead anyhow in first their disobedience and then their rebellion. Adam's disobedience was not the first such in an untold eternity. And it hasn't been the last.

With that in mind, I have to wonder if you are realizing that you seem to be promoting the cessation of free will in the perfecting of us. In other words: In order for there to be free will, doesn't there need to be something known so as to be able to exercise said free will in disobedience?

Could Adam have sinned if the forbidden fruit on the tree had not been available?

It was. He did. And just like every short-term thinking descendant of his thinks the same way: since nothing bad happened right away, it must be OK.

As husband, it was his responsibility to take the lead. He failed. Beyond the epic scale! Taking the lead, he should have been the first to take the fruit in disobedience, or at least interrupted Eve to make sure it was OK. To the point of being willing to offer up his own life for the safety, sanctity, and betterment of his beloved wife— oh wait! Failed there, too.

Instead, he watches and waits as this being and his wife are discussing actually disobeying the very God who wrought them into existence!

Instead, he watches and waits as she takes the fruit.

And doesn't die like Jehovah said!

That's when he did what he'd been wanting to do for only-Jehovah-knows how long before that moment.

Adam was perfect. Perfectly stupid.

But was he the first to disobey Jehovah God? I highly doubt it, and considering a third of those dwelling in the heavenly realm, in the very presence of God Himself, were willing to disobey, I feel my hunch is on good standing.

Be that as it may, what happened next is the clincher: they experienced a guilty conscience, or awareness about their disobedience.

They hid.

The difference between them and us is that they had personally been in the presence of their Creator. We've inherited their guilty conscience, and little else except for the whole pain, misery and eventual death bits, of course.

Should I think that the Adversary felt guilty at the start of his path into rebellion? Do heavenly beings have a conscience, or even need one?

It goes back to free will. Free will must have opportunity for disobedience.

So, I am not persuaded at this point that 1) we will ever reach a point where we are perfect, since only God is perfect (and thus the guidepost by which all living beings steer their lives) and/or 2) that we will one day have no awareness of sin (or know how to sin) at that point.

Oh, and to answer your question as to whether I'd prefer having a clean conscience before Jehovah or having no idea what sin was, I'd have to say that, like Jesus— who went to his murder at the hands of his own people to whom he had come to offer salvation— I understand that once I have been made to know sin, it's up to me what I do about that knowledge of good and evil. (Genesis 3:22)

My flesh is weak, certainly. As a descendant of Adam, and innumerable fallen men since Adam, I've inherited a lot of baggage. Issues. LOL!

So, no, this is not a battle any believer can win on their own. That's why we were provided a Helper, surely!

A helper in every way the opposite to the Adversary that Adam had!!

And when one gets right down to it, what is there better for a believer than to have a clean conscience before Jehovah God? (Cf. Acts 24:16 et al.)

One final reference:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel. —Romans 2:14-16 Berean Standard Bible

This is still true in our day. Societies have common prohibitions, for example, even in their spiritually dead state. Non-believers have a conscience that more often than not runs similarly.

The difference, as I presently understand it, is that we are aware of sin. We are aware of God. All because we have been raised to life, a new creation. Unbelievers have no clue, and pride themselves on making it this far in their evolutionary development. Blind leading the blind.

That knowledge of good and evil— or, more simply: that knowledge of obedience and disobedience— takes on a whole new understanding when we're raised to life as believers. We see the rest of Mankind in a whole new light. We are given eyes to see, and understanding beyond that known by even the wisest of the world around us.

Gotta stop here, though, for now. Certain domestics are calling my name.

Submitted, as always, for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy
A believer.

 

They did not know what sin was because it never had occurred before, it was a concept no doubt that they probably tossed around, but due to their perfection didn’t settle their hearts on it until the angel who became Satan committed the first sin.

Sorry, but this logic is flawed. He should have taken the fruit first, or interrupted her? HUH? He didn’t know she had eaten it yet . Is it Adam’s fault she was deceived too? C’mon.

Absolutely. Free will must include the full spectrum of choice, good and bad. Without either it is not free will. Up unto the first sin by Satan free will was just a theory that had not been proven to exist within the knowledge of creation yet. Before the sin, the angels did not have knowledge of bad.

 

No. Sin did not exist yet in his existence. Adam did not know what sin was, but he did have a perfect conscience that pulled him away from going against Gods commandment. The concept of sin was a foreign thought to him, only until Eve sinned did he even consider going contrary to Gods commandments. Up until that point he had never even considered the notion of doing so.

 

Jehovah knows your heart condition first, even before you do. Your sins have already been forgiven Joshua because your heart is good towards God(I’m assuming it is . It sounds like you beat yourself up more than you should…

 

Of course you do. We all do. ANYTHING we get from God is gain. He knows this and loves us the same…

 

How do you know that sin didn't exist prior to Adam and Eve?

Sin, at its core, is the setting of one's will in opposition to Jehovah's Will, regardless of motivation since any motivation is self-centered at that point, and thus doesn't matter. It starts in the heart. (Isaiah 14:13-14 is held by various believers to refer to Satan, for example. Various believers likewise see the seraph's (fiery serpent) actions in Eden as the manifestation of what was already in that seraph's heart.

Were there any in the angelic realm who set their will against Jehovah's Will, first in their heart and later in their rebellion? And was this something fermenting for an indeterminate period, with Eden being a test for these heavenly beings just as the tree was for Adam and Eve? Who can know the profound depths of Jehovah's Wisdom?

Timothy Kline said: ↑
As husband, it was his responsibility to take the lead. He failed. Beyond the epic scale! Taking the lead, he should have been the first to take the fruit in disobedience, or at least interrupted Eve to make sure it was OK. To the point of being willing to offer up his own life for the safety, sanctity, and betterment of his beloved wife— oh wait! Failed there, too.​

Adam most certainly was there with her as the exchange between the seraph and Eve was taking place, Paul.

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. —Genesis 3:6 BSB​

But to answer your question, yes, it was his responsibility to protect her as flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones. Did he speak up? Remind her of God's prohibition? Even interrupt or try to stop her?

No. He stood there and watched, and when she offered the fruit to him, he ate it.

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy
A believer.

 

Sin did exist before Adam and Eve committed theirs. When Satan lied to Eve he committed the first sin. His act of disobedience was the origin of sin; thus he is the original serpent. Yes, his desire manifested in his heart, but only until it manifests into existence through action is it sin.

(Jas 1:14-15) “. . .each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.”
​

Prior to the sin, the angel who would become Satan did not have knowledge of bad, because evil did not exist yet. There was no precedent that had been established, or any act that could be defined as being bad, or evil, in all of creations history, until he lied to Eve.

(Eze 28:13-15) “13 In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrysolite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.”​

If sin did exist prior to the original sin, then from what source did it manifest? To believe this would require us to believe that all was not 'very good' as Jehovah states in Genesis when he was finished with his creation of the physical universe. Why would he state that if sin already existed?

​

​

I do see how you come to that conclusion when I read the scriptures stating that Adam was with her. You could be right, i'll have to let my cognitive dissonance settle down for a bit and reason on this a bit more. My understanding has always been through the lens of the NWT which states:

(Ge 3:6) “. . .Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it.”
​

This translation suggests that Eve took the fruit without Adams knowledge, and then later she gave him some when he was with her. I am inclined to believe this is more accurate, because we do know that she was alone when the serpent came to her and deceived her.

​

 

I'll requote the NWT paraphrase for quick context to what you shared (above):

Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it. —Genesis 3:6 New World Translation​

A paraphrase, given the original Hebrew text [<-- source link] make no mention of Eve being alone when approached by the seraph. In fact, the account places Adam with her, then and there.

ו וַתֵּרֶא הָאִשָּׁה כִּי טוֹב הָעֵץ לְמַאֲכָל וְכִי תַאֲוָה-הוּא לָעֵינַיִם, וְנֶחְמָד הָעֵץ לְהַשְׂכִּיל, וַתִּקַּח מִפִּרְיוֹ, וַתֹּאכַל; וַתִּתֵּן גַּם-לְאִישָׁהּ עִמָּהּ, וַיֹּאכַל. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
​

The NWT Committee will have to justify their paraphrase here, given it unscripturally infers that Adam had no idea this conversation was taking place.

He was there. And you can bet he jumped at the offer from Eve. She didn't die like Jehovah said, and it looked as much a delight to him as it had to her.

Not a single word to her, "Eve, what have you done?" Instead, it would be Jehovah Who asked that question of the woman.

I find it noteworthy that the entire body of writings which makes up our scriptures lays the responsibility for the state of Man before Jehovah God at the feet of Adam.

This was not a situation where Adam came strolling along around sometime after Eve had taken the fruit, had no idea where the fruit came from that she was offering him, and partook, utterly oblivious to ... well, any of it.

And yes, I know that the account has Adam trying to explain to Jehovah this very same preposterous excuse, that the woman had given him some fruit and he'd eaten. He had no idea it'd come from that tree.

He knew, or at least so says the apostle Paul in his first letter to Timothy, specifically at 1 Timothy 2:14.

All the more horrible everything that came after.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. —Romans 5:12 Berean Standard Bible, et al​

Men are the problem from the first page to the last of our Bible.

Again, I want to emphasize that it is never laid at the feet of Eve. In fact, back at 1 Timothy 2, the apostle Paul goes on to write that "Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control." 1 Timothy 2:15 BSB

Eve was deceived, no question about it. Her husband, not so much. After all, Adam was given the instruction directly by Jehovah. It was Adam's responsibility, then, to convey Jehovah's instruction to Eve concerning the tree Jehovah reserved for Himself. And we know that Adam did because Eve later recites what Adam told her. We learn that Adam had gone beyond, even, what Jehovah's actual prohibition was by adding the words "don't touch it, even."

While death came to Man through Adam, life came to Man through childbearing, and that was through Eve, and countless women after her. Childbearing is a living reminder of the child born unto us through the Woman of prophecy, through whom salvation came.

Adam, not so much. His lot was to sow seed, both food and offspring. Adam wouldn't even have a part of that salvation to come— but the woman would, and did, as Mary carried the life Jehovah God placed in her womb.

Did I go off-topic or what?! LOL!

Anyhoo...

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy
A believer.

 

(1Jo 4:16) “. . .God is love. . .”

I have to believe in all my heart that badness or evil did not exist before the first sin because my God... is... Love. This belief therefore seems to contradict what the scripture you posted states that good and evil existed prior when Jehovah told somebody that man had become like one of them. The question is who was he talking to?

Was the 'us' he was referring to the entire spiritual realm consisting of the complete host of angelic creation? Or rather was it to the one who created all other things besides himself, Jesus Christ? I suggest the latter is more probable based off of the following scripture.

(Ge 1:26) “. . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. . .”​

Who is Jehovah talking to here? Certainly not the angels, for mankind was not made in the image of the angels, we were made in the image of God.

(Ge 1:27) “. . .And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him. . .”
​

Why is it important to know who the 'us' is in these scriptures? Because if as you postulate bad did exist prior to the creation of Adam & Eve, within the spiritual world, from what source did it come from? Also, as posted above, how could God state that everything was 'very good' when he was creating the universe and all that it contains, if evil already existed? That doesn't make sense to me, and i'm not sure it can be reconciled except by looking at Gen 3:22 from a different perspective in that the 'us' is Jehovah and Jesus Christ, the two who created all things.

Obviously, to create something, you must know the limits to which your creation can operate and function. Jehovah and Jesus Christ know perfectly well exactly the limits of their creations and understand what is good and bad. There are standards and laws that have been established to not only make the universe run flawlessly, but also for mankind to live within Gods purpose for creating them and to be able to live forever.

In order to determine a standard, one must know the limits. They must know good and bad before setting the standard. Thus prior to creation, God and Jesus Christ determined what was good and bad. When they created the heavens and the universe and everything within, they created it with only the good. All creation was perfect. Can something be perfect if badness is within it? Of course not, otherwise why the need to destroy Satan and all badness?

When Satan sinned by lying to Eve, he created sin and badness within Gods creation by his actions. His desire manifested within him to the point of sin. Prior to this act, sin did not exist, nor did badness within all of Gods creation. When God states "the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.," he is talking to Jesus Christ who knew what good and evil were because they are the ones who determined what is good and evil within creation.

I want to thank you for bringing this point out, however I am still having a hard time with your perspective of it. I suppose it doesn't really matter because either way Adam ate it. There is simply not enough information in the account to place the culpability entirely on Adam as you so strongly do. Its highly likely that had Satan not already introduced sin into creation Adam & Eve would never have eaten the fruit.

Its not honestly possible to ascertain if she was alone when the seraph approached her. Although the account doesn't state whether Adam was with her at that point or not, we do know he was with her when she obviously gave him the fruit to eat. The fact that the seraph approached Eve and asked her, and then she replied, is suggestive that she was alone, although as I said it's not possible to exactly know. We must also realize that being around somebody, or with somebody, do not necessarily mean right next to them. When I go to the store with my Grandma, I am with her, but sometimes we are two aisles over and she is grabbing something that I don't want to eat. Perhaps, Adam, was with Eve in that sense but not right next to her. As the seraph conversed with Eve, Adam may have been in proximity but not right by. When he came over she may have already taken the fruit from the tree, or maybe not. Anyways, lots of ways to look at it. Thanks again though for opening up this perspective to me.[/QUOTE]

 

If we're both holding up a precious-cut gem, with its multi-faceted nature, we're going to be looking at the same gem, sure, but the light refractions on that gem as well as from within it as light bounces in and back out... combined with the facets we're observing as we look at it-- well, it just seems that we are going to be impressed in different ways.

The scriptures are the precious-cut gem Jehovah himself chiseled (and sometimes hammered) out of the lives of His people as an example-- and a warning. But there is soooooo much to take in. I've been a believer for nearly half a century now and I'm still finding nuances as I tilt that gem and observe and study it. And I've had plenty that needed to be unlearnt, for a fact.

And sure, we can spend our time here arguing over who's right, or we can appreciate the exchange of faith and hope and hope that someone who perchance drops by here can appreciate the perspectives and maybe even connect with them, as well.

Or, at best we leave them with something to think about.

Arguments don't change people's minds, anyhow. God does.

Timothy
A believer.

 

This is the very scripture that I think @Joshuastone7 and I had left off with (correct me if I'm wrong, Joshuastone), so it's great that all three of us are on the same page of our Bible, so to speak.

With that in mind, and since my response to Joshuastone is late in coming, let me see if I can dredge up two-cents' worth to contribute here.

I'll start with a question for the two of you: when is a baby considered a baby insofar as scriptures concern themselves on the matter? The world around us spends all day long arguing over this question, of course, with certain people and their respective politicians refusing to consider a baby to be a baby until its born -- and even then claiming it's impossible to know what gender the baby is until, as a child, the child can tell us that he or she is a boy or girl, both, or neither.

As a result, as far as the world's concerned, abortions don't kill babies.

I ask this question because the apostle James is here describing the very same process, from conception to birth, it seems to me.

If your answer is that, scripturally speaking, a baby isn't a baby until it's finally birthed, then I can better understand the position you and Joshuastone seem to have: sin isn't sin until action is taken (birthed)... and then the sin is identified as the action taken.

But I see no distinction here between a child that is unborn and one that has been given birth.

If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband demands and as the court allows. But if a serious injury results, then you must require a life for a life... — Exodus 21:22-23 Berean Standard Bible, et al.

Since the apostle James refers to the natural process of impregnation, gestation to full development, and finally birth, the question is answered by the illustrative example: sin doesn't require birth to be sin. An unborn child is still a child under the Law of Moses, and an unborn sin is still a sin under the Law of Christ.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying here that I'm right and your view is wrong. What I'm trying to do is explain why I see this differently from you and Joshuastone.

Here are some additional scriptures that have persuaded me to this perspective:

You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not murder’ and ‘Anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. . . . You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. – Matthew 5:21-22b, 27-28 Berean Standard Bible

(Neither of these trespasses against Jehovah's Will require birth.)​

…we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. – 2 Corinthians 10:5b Berean Standard Bible

(Again, no birth has taken place (or, action, if you prefer). Yet because these thoughts are sin, we are commanded to take these thoughts captive. Compare with Jehovah's admonition to Cain, asking if Cain will master the sin within him. It's interesting that we can't necessarily rid ourselves of sin-inclined thoughts; we can only take them captive, or master them, through the power given us by the Helper provided us by Jehovah God.)​

Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. – Proverbs 4:23 New International Version

(Once more, we are admonished to guard our heart. ​

And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. --Philippians 4:8 Berean Study Bible

(Yet again, we are to guard our hearts just as a virgin guards her virginity for her [future] husband.)​

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think on these things. —Philippians 4:8 Berean Standard Bible

Why all this emphasis on thoughts, if it isn't sin until there is action?

According to the apostle James: "after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

This is the ONLY instance I am aware of in the Bible where abortion is not only allowed, but recommended. Abortion of unborn sin.

If that sin is carried full-term, it will be sin birthed. Desire, in the scriptures I cited above and others in the Bible, is the fetus, but it's sin regardless. We carry it in the fertile womb of our mind and heart, and sure as sure, an opportunity will come along so it can be born (unless we take it captive, abort it), and sin doesn't stop at birth. It goes on maturing in its desires and cravings to the point where we can become corrupted so extensively, so scarred in our conscience, that there is no coming back. At that point, all we have to look forward to are the brief, temporal pleasures of satisfied sin, and an everlasting death.

As I said, I am not declaring myself the one that has the right of this, and you're wrong-wrong-wrong-wrong. I'm only sharing where I'm at on this subject.

I may be in a different place on the matter later today, next week, next year. LOL

Submitted for your perusal and consideration,
Timothy
A believer.

 

Based off of the scriptures, Adam & Eve were the first human pair. That isn't an assumption. I think it is more appropriate to think in these lines than to speculate on alien life that may or may not exist. I do believe there is other life on other planets actually, just not human life. Adam & Eve were the first, who would then fill the earth and subdue it, then the solar system, and then the galaxy etc.etc... What a wonderful thought.

However, lets examine your postulation that there is other intelligent life. Are they perfect then, like Adam & Eve were when they were created? Certainly they must be. What if they also sinned like Adam & Eve did? Does that mean that Jesus must go there and die for them too? That doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't it be better to simply start with two and then go from there, just like the bible has already explained it to us?

Once sin has been done away with, all of creation will never have to go through what we have for eternity because now a precedent exists when once it did not. Speculating on alien life is most certainly more irrelevant than whether evil existed prior to the original sin, because it is impossible to prove there is intelligent life anywhere else other than the earth.

I'm sorry you feel that evil existed prior to the first sin. Nothing in the scriptures supports that view, yet nothing in the scriptures supports the trinity and yet people still believe it.

 

When Cain and Abel offered up their bounties to Jehovah, and Jehovah showed favor to Abel, Cain grew hot with anger. No doubt he was having sinful thoughts within him as he was hot with anger. The account states:

(Ge 4:5-7) “. . .And Cain grew hot with great anger, and his countenance began to fall. 6 At this Jehovah said to Cain: “Why are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?””​

If as you say, sin is the bad thoughts or intentions within us prior to the action, why does God tell Cain that if he turns to good there will be an exaltation, but if he does not then sin is crouching at the door? In Gods eyes, Abel had not sinned yet, even though he was having evil thoughts.

Only until one creates the sin through their actions is it a sin. We have the power to create thoughts yet not to let them manifest into reality. Just like Jehovah and Jesus had the ability to know what bad or evil was without manifesting them into creation when they created all things.