I'm sorry but you are making stuff up as you go now that is not biblical. Why would they have simply died? Why didn't Adam & Eve just die then? Why would the intelligent life on another planet be less worthy of redemption than humanity?
If I'm making stuff up then you are too. You said no other intelligent life exists in the universe. Oh yea? Adam and Eve did die.
Joshua, I am going to ask you a question and it may seem a little odd, even offensive, but please don't take it that way. I am not attacking you, but rather I am trying to understand you and your perspectives. Are you autistic, or do you fall within the autistic spectrum rather?
I only ask because your last post is very child like: What does that even mean 'oh yea'? What am I making up? There is no proof of other intelligent life. To believe there is, is actually making stuff up that we don't know. Why would you make an argument on something that you cannot prove, or at least provide supportive reasoning to lend credibility to it so that there is something to build upon. The bible gives no evidence of other intelligent life on other planets. The bible gives no evidence that evil existed prior to the first sin.
Many times people with high IQ have lower EQ's that tend to struggle with social awareness and interpersonal communication. If you are not aware of it, it can lead to uncomfortable feelings and situations in your daily life. It could be the reason this website has suffered from membership loss and retention. You can improve your EQ tremendously, but only as long as you are aware that it needs improvement and are willing to take the steps do so.
Here is a Harvard Business School link that discusses this very thing. How to Develop Emotional Intelligence Skills | HBS Online
If it weren't so sad, this would be funny...lol You are displaying the same know-it-all attitude that Satan, Adam and Eve, those at the tower of Babel, Moses at the rock, and Nebbi showed. You don't understand one comment from me, and you assume to know me...lol I am empathic, my friend, and have written papers on EQ. There are four doctorates of psychology in my family...lol I am an astute student of social behavior and emotional intelligence...lol You are a know-it-all ASSumer...lol All because you couldn't understand one of my posts... My wife and I are getting a good laugh at your posts. You assume there is no other intelligent life in the universe. The Bible does not say this, just as I said. Just as much as saying there is no other intelligent life. Just as I said, there is no proof for either of our positions. Hence why I said it....lol I answered your assumption with an assumption to show yours was one....lol One thing is for sure, though: there certainly is no intelligent life on the other end of this conversation...lol I made the argument to show you your argument was exactly like mine; it could not be proved. I am two steps ahead of you, so naturally, therefore, you think I'm autistic...lol Just as the Bible gives no evidence that there is no life on other planets, as you asserted...lol Wow, are you the one with developmental issues? lol "Like us, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:22) Someone knew about it before Adam. Oh, yeah, that's right, you assume it's only talking about YHWH and Jesus who knew, and they had to know in order to make things "good." LOL. Assumption, assumption, assumption. Taken plainly, evil was known before Adam sinned. Hook, line, and sinker... lol... As I have said, I have been an empath since infancy. Myself and my entire family have been students of psychology since before I could remember...lol Shows you what you know...lol This website is only here to serve as my own personal database. I do not care if anyone comes to comment or not...lol I answer shortly occasionally because I don't care what people think of me, and I almost answered you with a simple "lol." But I thought I would be respectful and show you just how much of an ASSumption you were presenting here....lol Because you didn't understand my post, you took the road of superiority, talking down to me and professing to teach me. Shame on you, sir... I pray our Lord does not hold this matter against you. Joshua PS: You could use some work in punctuation, capitalization and sentence structure.
Possibly because they were not deceived by one of "them." Like I said... And BTW, Satan challenged Jehovah’s right to rule humanity. So Jesus had to come here to vindicate God's rule in the eyes of the faithful angels. Otherwise that question of God's right to rule would not have been answered. Again, we are just speculating here. Joshua
Let the wicked one abandon his way and the sinful one his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, so he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will freely forgive. —Isaiah 55:7 Christian Standard Bible You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart. —Acts 8:21-22 Berean Standard Bible, et al. And LORD JEHOVAH saw that the evil of man increased in the earth and every inclination of the reasonings of his heart was evil every day. —Genesis 6:5 Aramaic Bible in Plain English Okay, that last one required destruction, not forgiveness, but still. —Timothy A believer.
I don't see anything here to prove your point, brother. Isaiah 55:7 says that those who sin in action (the wicked) need to change their thought processes. From the heart come our actions. Acts 8 admonishes the sinner to repent of their wicked acts. The word wickedness must have a separate identity from the heart because otherwise, the same identity would be mentioned twice. The word wickedness is intended to mean actions. And since this one was unrepentant, their intention was to sin. If you are not intending to sin, and you are already repentant, your random evil thought is not a sin, as you suggest. Imo... The intent of these scriptures is toward the sinner by actions, for out of our hearts comes good or evil acts. They intended to sin... Gen 6:5 discusses man's actions before the flood. It does not say people were sitting around thinking about doing bad; it is intended to say they acted evil out of the condition of their hearts. Brother, from our hearts come our actions. From our thoughts come our actions. If we are unrepentant, then our thoughts are evil. If we are repentant, they are not. Nowhere in scripture does it say thoughts are sin. Each scripture you shared discusses ones who were sinning physically, and it was because of their heart condition. They are pointing out their sin came from their heart condition, just like Cain. PaulAche quoted God's words to Cain. This clearly demonstrates the point. Had Cain changed his heart condition, he would not have sinned. Errant thoughts are not sin... If so, you would be a sinner the moment you were tempted. No... That would make God unfair. We cannot control all errant thoughts. We control them by keeping them in submission and fighting against them. You are certainly not going to keep Satan from tempting you with evil thoughts. The result of your position is that at the moment Satan tempted Eve, she sinned, even before eating. That would mean she had no free will and would make God Himself a murderer. Imo... Even the moment God Himself told Adam not to eat of the tree, Adam would have had to consider it in order not to. All love... Joshua
I see no disagreement between us here as far as errant thoughts, or unintentional sin. As to the question of whether Eve sinned before she sinned, as it were, I still believe yes, her desire itself was sin (Cf Exodus 20:17), before she acted out upon it. The distinction, from my present understanding, is that Eve was deceived, whereas Adam was not. To me, that means Adam's sin was intentional. So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, for him it is sin. —James 4:17 Berean Standard Bible Maybe this all hinges upon whether one understands sin as an action, rather than a condition. I'm seated on the condition side of the aisle and you appear to be seated on the action side of the aisle. Even so, we're both still seated in the same room, looking at the same evidence. I hope to have the time available this weekend to respond further to you and @PaulAche but will at least close with another scripture that I believe points to our heart as the culprit and origin of sin moreso than any action we might take: For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart. —1 Samuel 16:7 English Standard Version --Timothy A believer.
Greetings, brother. I am glad you clarified this statement. I had been reading you believed all thought could be considered sin given its content. With that said... The problem is that if thought is a sin only after the action, the action is the defining factor of whether thought is a sin. This takes us back to sin being defined as an action. This reminds me of our conversation on "love." My side was that love was purely an action, while yours was that of an internal manifestation. I would say they both sinned intentionally. Whether deceived or not, she made a conscious decision in contrast to God's command. Imo... This is an interesting conversation, because even though sin is a condition defined by action, I will give you the example of covetousness, which seems contradictory to the idea that sin is only an action. However, is the command against covetousness meant to say our thoughts can be a sin within themselves? Or is the command a warning that such contemplation is a form of idolatry that leads to the condition of physical sin? "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” Mrk 7:21-23 Given that a spontaneous moment of coveting would not be considered a sin, shouldn't we be asking the command's intent? Is not the command against covetousness to keep us from sinful actions? We all have that moment of desiring physical gain. Covetousness is inseparably tied to gain. "Turn my heart to Your testimonies and not to covetous gain." Psm 119:36 ------- Here are some perspectives from personal insights: The original lie contained covetousness. The Lier coveted God's position, and Eve coveted God's knowledge. These coveting attitudes led to sin. However, when Cain coveted Able's position with God, his covetousness had not yet led to sin. "The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” Gen 4:7,8 Even though Cain was jealous and coveted Able's favor with God, that mindset had not yet led Cain to sin. To me, this is why God's command not to covet was made. If one dwells on such matters, those desires become idolatry and lead to a condition of the heart that presents itself in sin. If sinful actions are required for thoughts to become sin, then it is not the thought that was sin, but the action. At such a point, what does it matter that the thought was a sin when the action manifests? I could be wrong, and just as always, this subject is much more complex than I had anticipated...lol I appreciate our discussions... Joshua
Something I'm curious about, given our current perspectives in this discussion: Of Cain: Which side of the door is sin crouching at? Submitted for your perusal and consideration, Timothy A believer.
Sin is still outside the door when God speaks to Cain, which means outside Cain. "If you do well, will you not be accepted?" "If" denotes the time before Cain was thrown into the wilderness because of sin. (Gen 4:11) Cain had not yet been banished at God's first admonishment because he had not yet sinned. Remember that the emphasis is on doing or not doing. (actions) "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door." If Cain did not change his thinking, sin would follow, for "it" was knocking at the door (as it were)—just as our Lord is at the door. "Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door." Mrk 13:29 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20 The door is the entrance to us. Cain could not take sin into himself until opening that door through action. It makes no sense to have sin crouching inside the door. What's the use of the door metaphor at that point? Sin would already be residing in you. No, but rather, we are the temple. Our Lord comes and knocks at the door, and we let Him in, or we open the door to sin. Our Lord resides within us, or sin does, only after opening the door to either. The door leads to us, hence its use in metaphor. Joshua
Thank you, as this helps me better appreciate why you presently are where you are on this topic. And, as expected, I'm seeing this from a different perspective, since I understand sin as crouching at the inside of the door, wanting out (to wreak havoc and death). Much like owning a dangerous dog who, if it escapes, will do great harm. Or, a lion off its chain. Now if we put bits into the mouths of the horses for them to obey us, we turn about even their whole body. Behold also the ships, being so great and being driven by strong winds, are turned about by a very small rudder wherever the impulse of the one steering resolves. Thus also the tongue is a small member, and boasts exceeding things. Behold a small fire, how great a forest it kindles. The tongue also is a fire, the world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, defiling all the body, and setting on fire the course of nature, and itself being set on fire by Gehenna. For every species both of beasts and of birds, both of creeping things and things of the sea, is subdued and has been subdued by the human race, but no one of men is able to subdue the tongue; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. – James 3:3-8 Berean Literal Bible Jesus called the crowd to Him and said, “Listen and understand. A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.” Then the disciples came to Him and said, “Are You aware that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?” But Jesus replied, “Every plant that My heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by its roots. Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Peter said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.” “Do you still not understand?” Jesus asked. “Do you not yet realize that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then is eliminated? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander. These are what defile a man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile him.” —Matthew 15:10-20 Berean Standard Bible Guard your heart with all diligence, for from it flow springs of life. – Proverbs 4:23 Berean Standard Bible Cain had two options: let the anger out to work its poison and death with it... or take control of it like we put a bit in the horse's mouth, or control the ship by means of an udder. Jesus seems to support this when he notes that it is "out from the heart" Cain's murderous thoughts came. Cain failed to chain the rabid dog, and it did great injury-- and this in spite of Cain being waned by Jehovah... But if the ox has a habit of goring, and its owner has been warned yet does not restrain it, and it kills a man or woman, then the ox must be stoned and its owner must also be put to death. —Exodus 21:29 Berean Standard Bible Submitted for perusal and consideration, Timothy A believer.
When God spoke to Cain, sin was not yet at the door. Hence, the word "if." If Cain did not "do" well, sin would be coming to the door. "if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door." If - wə·’im = If Doorway - lap·pe·ṯaḥ = opening, doorway, entrance --- "it desires you, but you must master it.” (NIV) It - wə·’ê·le·ḵā = to, into, towards "eager" (NLT) "And unto thee" (KJV) The text indicates that sin would come into Cain "if" he did not do well. The word wə·’im indicates that sin had not yet come onto the scene, and the word wə·’ê·le·ḵā indicates sin would be coming unto or towards Cain "if" he did not do well after speaking to God. Hence, Cain had not yet sinned. All love... Joshua Addition: The beast of sin was not wanting to get out, it is wanting to subdue and attack Cain. It's desire/longing is toward him, not the outside world. It's desire was to gain mastery over Cain. Removing sin from ourselves is our goal, not to keep it in.